Yosemite looks terrible!

[MagnusVonMagnum]

No I don't, but a lot of people use older computers, whether they're Macbooks nor not (iMacs and Mac Pros are not extinct - the first retina iMac a only a few months old, and it doesn't come cheap, not to mention the mini customers). Not everyone gets a new computer every two years, which is why I still think the majority doesn't have retina macs. Apple doesn't break down sales by model so I guess that kind of data would be hard to obtain.

Anyone have an example of what this awful to look at font system looks like? I don't really want to install Yosemite just to get an exact idea of the font system problem. I'm using a separate monitor (1680x1050 resolution 16:10 monitor) and not an Apple display so I'd be curious to see why it's supposedly so hard to look at. I don't see how higher resolution would improve things, offhand. I would imagine a high resolution snapshot (doesn't matter what as long as it's above my resolution, I can scale it down with Photoshop even) should show the font problem on any given monitor.

I'm just having a hard time imagining how they could make fonts harder to read offhand, although I do recall Windows looking less legible in general (somehow thinner looking fonts) than OS X. I tried searching on Google for font readability issues under Yosemite and a few other modifications and I couldn't find anything that seemed to demonstrate the problem or see any text I had trouble reading.

 

[F1Mac]

Anyone have an example of what this awful to look at font system looks like? I don't really want to install Yosemite just to get an exact idea of the font system problem. I'm using a separate monitor (1680x1050 resolution 16:10 monitor) and not an Apple display so I'd be curious to see why it's supposedly so hard to look at. I don't see how higher resolution would improve things, offhand. I would imagine a high resolution snapshot (doesn't matter what as long as it's above my resolution, I can scale it down with Photoshop even) should show the font problem on any given monitor.

I'm just having a hard time imagining how they could make fonts harder to read offhand, although I do recall Windows looking less legible in general (somehow thinner looking fonts) than OS X. I tried searching on Google for font readability issues under Yosemite and a few other modifications and I couldn't find anything that seemed to demonstrate the problem or see any text I had trouble reading.

There you go

I have 2 1920x1080 monitors, not from Apple.

 

[Etan1000]

Anyone have an example of what this awful to look at font system looks like?…

You will find an example by a user named findik in about the middle of this page, at Jan 2, 2015 7:19 PM:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6602718?start=105&tstart=0

Etan

 

[Etan1000]

…

I'm just having a hard time imagining how they could make fonts harder to read offhand…

I believe that the explanation for what causes it to happen may be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_rasterization

Why Apple is allowing this to happen without having taken corrective action is the mystery.

Etan

 

[Etan1000]

I believe that the explanation for what causes it to happen may be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_rasterization

Why Apple is allowing this to happen without having taken corrective action is the mystery.

Etan

Softpedia referred to it this way back in October:

Parts of OS X Yosemite Display Blurry, Reason Unknown

Likely fixable through a small software update

Numerous Mac users who recently made the jump to OS X 10.10 are reporting blurry menu bars and fonts on their systems. The culprit is unknown at this time, but the issue is probably easily remedied through a simple software update.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Parts-of-OS-X-Yosemite-Display-Blurry-Reason-Unknown-463109.shtml

and predicted that "a simple software update" would probably be quickly issued to fix it. I only wish their prediction had been as accurate as their report.

Etan

 

[Etan1000]

Anyone have an example of what this awful to look at font system looks like?…

And it's not limited to the system font:



Etan

 

[Paulk]

Etan thanks for that excellent update in your last 2 posts. I'd never heard of rasterisation before.

 

[F1Mac]

Softpedia referred to it this way back in October:



http://news.softpedia.com/news/Parts-of-OS-X-Yosemite-Display-Blurry-Reason-Unknown-463109.shtml

and predicted that "a simple software update" would probably be quickly issued to fix it. I only wish their prediction had been as accurate as their report.

Etan

Once again, this article and these "users" don't know what they're talking about, they are putting the blame on Yosemite for a small and unnesseary option that's been here for ages: LCD font smoothing. I never use it, it makes the whole UI hard to read, very annoying "feature". And it looks as bad with Lucida, whether you're on Mavericks or beloved Snow Leopard... It's probably worse with Helvetica. I could be wrong but I think Yosemite enables it by default. I hope these experts have figured out the unknown reason since last october.

 

[Etan1000]

Once again, this article and these "users" don't know what they're talking about, they are putting the blame on Yosemite for a small and unnesseary option that's been here for ages: LCD font smoothing. I never use it, it makes the whole UI hard to read, very annoying "feature". And it looks as bad with Lucida, whether you're on Mavericks or beloved Snow Leopard... It's probably worse with Helvetica. I could be wrong but I think Yosemite enables it by default. I hope these experts have figured out the unknown reason since last october.

Interesting and helpful point of view.

I don't pretend to know the answer, but there seems to be a wide diversity of opinion on this subject however.

For a different take, see:
Font Smoothing for Non-Retina Display
∞ Nov 14, 2014
http://sayzlim.net/font-smoothing-non-retina-display/

Font smoothing can dramatically change how font are rendered. You’ll see a major improvement in the looks and feels of apps by just turning on font smoothing, but with a simple command in Terminal, you can make the font on non-Retina display looks way better than the default setting.

Font smoothing setting is available under System Preferences » General. Turning it off will cause the rendered font becomes jaggy and pixelated, so you definitely want to always keep it enabled. It doesn’t mean turning it on makes the text on screen more readable, in fact, small text becomes blurry with font smoothing enabled.

This comment is followed by a recommendation to use the Terminal to set font smoothing to "medium" and includes the command to do so.

(And of course preceding comments on MacRumors and elsewhere about font selection and many other settings contributing to the problem and/or solution are also relevant.)

I don't pretend to know the answer, and am not taking sides in the debate over "on", "off" or in between, but my point is: shouldn't Apple know the answer and, using that knowledge, set the Yosemite installer up with default settings appropriate for the Mac it is being installed on, with plainly written instructions for fine-tuning if necessary? This business of jumping all around the internet in order to find "hints" for fine-tuning by turning this and that on or off is extremely unMac-like, and leaves the "average user" described by someone above, as well as the productivity user feeling his/her Mac is simply no longer suitable for his/her environment.

Therefore, it seems natural to put the blame on Yosemite when, for most suffering Mac users, that's when the problems most prominently appeared. So I would slightly paraphrase your statement above to say: "I (would have) hope(d) these experts (at Apple would) have figured out the unknown reason since last October."

Respectfully,
Etan

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

There you go

I have 2 1920x1080 monitors, not from Apple.

Well looking at the Mavericks menus, what stands out is that in Mavericks all the text is in BOLD and in Yosemite it appears to not be in bold. That makes the fonts look thinner, but they aren't unreadable or not sharp in that snapshot here.

And it's not limited to the system font:

View attachment 542080

Etan

Now that looks like a real problem. But is that TeXShop's fault (in the sense they need to fix something for Yosemite) or Apple's fault (as in a lot of 3rd party programs are broken looking)?

The example shown on this page (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6602718?start=105&tstart=0) looks BAD in my Firefox viewer in Mavericks and it's a PNG image being scaled by Firefox (i.e. if I click on the image, it's clear). So now I'm even less sure of the cause. Could it be that Yosemite is simply using poor choices of fonts in some areas? I've never seen any blurry fonts in everyday use on my Mac. When I switched to my first flat screen monitor several years ago, I did have to click on the LCD font smoothing to get all text to look good, but that was it. I'm half tempted to try out Yosemite just to see it for myself, but switching back even using Carbon Copy Cloner to simplify it all still would take hours to copy, etc. and gauging by comments overall and the snapshots I've seen, I don't really want Yosemite for any good reason (i.e. no features to entice me to use it despite the ugly new interface).

Ok, I've gone back and looked at the first page of that discussion and there are much better examples there (e.g. https://discussions.apple.com/servl...5542/Screen+Shot+2014-10-17+at+2.07.17+PM.png )of the menu bar system fonts looking blurry. What I don't get is how that looks better on a Retina monitor? Is it just a simple scaling issue (i.e. it looks bad when scaled to any other resolution but the Retina display ones)? Could it be they don't have enough font sizes available or it's not one of those scalable type fonts (truetype? I forget what they are called it's been such a non-issue for such a LONG time).

I guess I have to read the whole thread; the very next post the guy that posted that picture said rebooting eliminated the blurry font problem for him.... (sigh) It seems that the changes to LCD Font Smoothing only take effect after a reboot and turning it off helped many people. I had it off with my CRT, but it looked bad with it off on my LCD in Leopard on my PPC Mac when I first got an LCD so it sounds pretty strange to me that turning it off helps for flat-screens since that's just the opposite sounding. Others report it looks fine for many hours and then shows up (i.e. bug, not the font smoothing option). Basically, I'm getting a lot of different experiences in that thread that don't all add up together.

My second monitor is a cheap Insignia TV/Monitor (i.e. so I could watch TV on it sometimes while doing something else) and it was pretty horrific looking at first. I had to do several attempts with the color calibration to get colors to even come close to matching the primary monitor, but it wasn't just color that was off. It was contrast and that had a huge effect on things. I think it needed the LCD setting etc. set as well (didn't appear to be automatic). In the end, it was MUCH better looking, but still the fonts don't look as good on that monitor as the primary one. I wonder if any of these people did any calibrations and/or checked their resolution settings (I know in Mavericks it automatically picks the "best" resolution for you, but it may not be the "best" one as it appeared to look at my 2nd monitor's resolution when making the choice as well and the 2nd one is a different size and resolution). All I know is I would look in multiple areas. 3rd party monitors aren't always automatically awesome looking with a Mac. Color calibration made a 500% improvement on that monitor. But Apple's asinine method of calibration is hard to get it just right (took a half dozen attempts here). The Microsoft method is SOOO much easier and more reliable, IMO.

 

[grahamperrin]

A mess for a majority

Yosemite, for a minority

… I thought that many people would have a retina, seeing as they were first released over 2 1/2 years ago. …

I guess that now, less than fifteen percent of Mac users have a Retina-only environment. A July 2014 observation:

… I do feel (based on what I've seen and heard) that Apple needs to optimize for non-reinta displays since 92%+ of Mac users have/use non-retina displays. …

Mess

… seriously messed up readability …

Yeah. It stinks.

… find yourself moving closer and closer to the screen, trying compensate for a nagging, constant, questioning of what does that say. A computer OS should clearly, precisely, quickly convey the information the user needs to get the work done. You shouldn’t have to buy calibration equipment, a new computer, or go to an optometrist to make sure nothing is going wrong with your eyes just to use your computer when you upgraded the OS. …

Yesterday I tried, for the first time, on Mavericks, a previously respected third party app that was recently redesigned with Yosemite in mind. As blucolar found Yosemite unclear, so I found the Yosemite-inspired app unclear.

It stinks.

… The major complaints are about loss of productivity due to eyestrain, headaches and the abandonment of the Human Interface Guidelines. …

As a condensed summary, I like that.

… I believe Apple are trying to bring uniformity to all their platforms in a hope to make them work together better, which really, has to be the ultimate goal. …

Where the platform is worsened, and where apps inspired by changes to that platform are worsened: I can't view those things as working better.

Apple Doesn’t Design for Yesterday; I don't write for a future in which a majority of Mac users might have Retina-only environments.

I write now, about the mess that is now.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Yosemite, for a minority

I guess that now, less than fifteen percent of Mac users have a Retina-only environment.

Exactly what resolution is a "Retina" Mac and doesn't this new 5k one find itself at a different resolution? I mean Retina means nothing, really. It's just a higher than previously sold resolution as far as I can tell and uses that doubling effect or something for text sizes. It's not a truly scalable system like they once promised we'd see (resolution independence). Theoretically, if you have a 3rd party monitor that's the same resolution, shouldn't you get the same result? Or is it one of these things were Apple reserves scaling and the like for only their products and makes 3rd party stuff look like crap on purpose?

 

[grahamperrin]

Retina display resolutions

Exactly what resolution is a "Retina" Mac …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retina_Display includes information about resolutions.

 

[redheeler]

Exactly what resolution is a "Retina" Mac and doesn't this new 5k one find itself at a different resolution? I mean Retina means nothing, really. It's just a higher than previously sold resolution as far as I can tell and uses that doubling effect or something for text sizes. It's not a truly scalable system like they once promised we'd see (resolution independence). Theoretically, if you have a 3rd party monitor that's the same resolution, shouldn't you get the same result? Or is it one of these things were Apple reserves scaling and the like for only their products and makes 3rd party stuff look like crap on purpose?

You can run any display in pixel-doubled (HiDPI) mode, but only on Retina displays will things look the same size since the pixel density is exactly double that of a non-retina.

 

[redheeler]

I do feel (based on what I've seen and heard) that Apple needs to optimize for non-reinta displays since 92%+ of Mac users have/use non-retina displays.

There is nothing wrong with designing the OS with the future in mind, and the future is Retina. Two of the three Intel Macs siting on my desk are Retina, and the one that isn't is happily running Snow Leopard, the last version of OS X designed with only low pixel densities in mind.

That being said, my 27" 2010 iMac is on Yosemite, and although it doesn't look as good on it as it does on Retina it is still perfectly usable to me.

 

[Traverse]

There is nothing wrong with designing the OS with the future in mind, and the future is Retina. Two of the three Intel Macs siting on my desk are Retina, and the one that isn't is happily running Snow Leopard, the last version of OS X designed with only low pixel densities in mind.

That being said, my 27" 2010 iMac is on Yosemite, and although it doesn't look as good on it as it does on Retina it is still perfectly usable to me.

It's not terrible when using my 23" 1080p with sub 100 PPI, but it isn't great. Text is often very jagged from being so thin, and the translucency looks very washed out, but that's just my opinion.

Retina may be the future, but you can't just drop the past. Apple is still selling non-retina Macs and there are millions in the wild. Plus, many retina Mac users also use external displays that are not "retina" quality. I think a systemwide bold font option would go a long way.

EDIT: I will add that I do like the new dock better. I hated the idea of losing the 3D shelf Dock, but after moving from Yosemite to Mavericks, the 3D dock feels unnecessarily "heavy" to me. Aw well.

 

[Etan1000]

Yosemite, for a minority

I guess that now, less than fifteen percent of Mac users have a Retina-only environment. A July 2014 observation:

Mess

Yeah. It stinks. …

Apple Doesn’t Design for Yesterday; I don't write for a future in which a majority of Mac users might have Retina-only environments.

I write now, about the mess that is now.

You are so right:

Here's Karjaluoto's wind-up:

Apple Doesn’t Design for Yesterday
Eric Karjaluoto
Friday, October 17, 2014
—
The biggest point of discomfort I have with the new OS X relates to type. Helvetica sets wide and isn’t always well-suited to screens. These shortcomings are glaring in Yosemite. I need to expand Finder window columns so they accommodate the girth of this type family; similarly, type in the menu bar looks crowded and soft. Admittedly, these are First World Problems. That said, I’m not complaining so much as I’m observing.
Apple’s decision to make a wholesale shift from Lucida to Helvetica defies my expectations. Criticize the company as much as you’d like, but it treats user experience with reverence. So, this leaves me wondering: What possible reason is there for this shift? Why make a change that impedes legibility, requires more screen space, and makes the GUI appear fuzzy?

When Macs no longer shipped with floppy drives, many felt baffled. This same experience occurred when a disk (CD/DVD) reader no longer came standard. I probably don’t need to remind you how weird it seemed for the iPhone to not have a physical keyboard. Apple continues to remove items that seem necessary from their products and line-up.
In spite of the grumblings of many, I don’t recall many such changes that we didn’t later look upon as the right choice. Floppy disks were too small. The cloud made physical media (CDs and DVDs) unnecessary. Better touch screens allowed a more efficient means of input, which made bulky keyboards unnecessary.

And here's his pitch:

Sure, Helvetica looks crummy on your standard resolution screen. But, the people at Apple are OK with this temporary trade-off. You’re living in Apple’s past, and, in time, you’ll move forward. When you do, you’ll find a system that works as intended: because Apple skates to where the puck is going to be.

http://www.erickarjaluoto.com/blog/apple-doesnt-design-for-yesterday/

Under intellectual scrutiny, I don't think Mr. Karjaluoto's attempt at a glib analogy works.

When Apple introduced new Macs with hardware changes like no floppy drives, no optical drives, etc. etc. the existing drives in Macs already owned by previous Mac purchasers did not suddenly start malfunctioning!

Apple just introduced a new MacBook with a single new port. That's fine, but if we were to apply this author's argument, should we expect our USB ports, audio ports, power port etc. in our existing Macs to suddenly stop functioning properly?

So I find that author's justification for what Yosemite has done to many of our existing Macs to be quite ridiculous.

Respectfully,

Etan

 

[F1Mac]

To shape the future we have to understand the past.

Hopefully Apple won't forget that.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

Wait a minute, what?
So in Apple's mind you need a retina screen to view Yosemite the way it is intended?
Where does that leave all the people who bought the new Mac Pro. Is Apple basically giving them the finger? The group of customers that spend the most money on their computers and who actually need a good working OS????

 

[Etan1000]

Wait a minute, what?
So in Apple's mind you need a retina screen to view Yosemite the way it is intended?
Where does that leave all the people who bought the new Mac Pro. Is Apple basically giving them the finger? The group of customers that spend the most money on their computers and who actually need a good working OS????

I refuse to believe that "…the people at Apple are OK with this…" I don't want to believe that author. I hope he's wrong.

About 6 months ago, Apple shipped me the brand-new MacBook Pro non-r I ordered from them, and with Yosemite the screen often looked blurry and caused eyestrain sitting right next to my four year old MacBook Pro which I had planned to pass on to a family member, and within weeks I had them replace the brand-new one because I kept thinking this must be a hardware defect, but no difference with the replacement.

Thereafter, I spent countless hours of experimentation and internet searching, reading the similar complaints of others, and applying a long list of kludges wherever they could be accepted, and I had to give up on the hard-wired Apple apps like Safari which would not accept font changes.

I don't know if "the people at Apple are OK with this" but I sure hope not.

I guess that's why we're here, having this discussion, and sending Apple feedback.

Etan

 

[Ezio Auditore]

I refuse to believe that "…the people at Apple are OK with this…" I don't want to believe that author. I hope he's wrong.

About 6 months ago, Apple shipped me the brand-new MacBook Pro non-r I ordered from them, and with Yosemite the screen often looked blurry and caused eyestrain sitting right next to my four year old MacBook Pro which I had planned to pass on to a family member, and within weeks I had them replace the brand-new one because I kept thinking this must be a hardware defect, but no difference with the replacement.

Thereafter, I spent countless hours of experimentation and internet searching, reading the similar complaints of others, and applying a long list of kludges wherever they could be accepted, and I had to give up on the hard-wired Apple apps like Safari which would not accept font changes.

I don't know if "the people at Apple are OK with this" but I sure hope not.

I guess that's why we're here, having this discussion, and sending Apple feedback.

Etan

Actually, if you look at what Apple is doing at the moment this makes sense now to me, in a way, I think, sort of.

The new Mac Pro has not been updated since 2013, the Mini was a big disappointment. They only did massive things in the retina department.

Maybe they really want to leave the pro market. Maybe the removal of Aperture is a sign?

The things that where brought to Yosemite where sort of only consumer features.
Apple makes more money with iOS than with OS X and with that in mind to make OS X more IOS than OS X makes sense.

Also look at the Apple Watch. It is basically a consumer gimmick.

I think it is really really dumb, because, at least for me, they will also loose me as a customer for IOS. And I am so pissed off with Apple that I am actually considering a Samsung for my phone (I have the iPhone 5S now) just to help their biggest competition. Not because I like that brand, but only because I am this pist at Apple right now.

 

[suntannedmonk]

Is this really still being discussed?

It looks awesome.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I don't know why Apple can't simply have OSX look at what display you're using and use one font set for Retina displays and another set for non-Retina displays, thus optimizing the OS for the display rather than expecting you to "just deal with it" like some kind of person with their head up their own arse. But then looking at what Johnny Five is doing, I tend to think he probably does have his head up there.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

I don't know why Apple can't simply have OSX look at what display you're using and use one font set for Retina displays and another set for non-Retina displays, thus optimizing the OS for the display rather than expecting you to "just deal with it" like some kind of person with their head up their own arse. But then looking at what Johnny Five is doing, I tend to think he probably does have his head up there.

Well, I think that Apple today is only looking at their numbers and how well they have sell'd their iPhone. But I think this is just a hype that they inherited from Steve. Sure for now they sell great, but how will they sell in the (near) future?
If you look at the internet the complaints are so plentiful that they can not keep this position that they have today. History is simply repeating itself just not exactly the same as the first time Jobs left Apple

 

[ricede]

I will add that I do like the new dock better. I hated the idea of losing the 3D shelf Dock, but after moving from Yosemite to Mavericks, the 3D dock feels unnecessarily "heavy" to me. Aw well.

Check out cDock.