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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Difficult to see web site title … a critical, high priority bug

You do realise that Yosemite is still a whole 2 months away from prime time, right?

Keep hammering away at Apple via Feedback Assistant :)

Yes, I do realise.

I hammered – hard – more than two months ago.

Softpedia asks:

Did Apple's New OS X Yosemite Copy GNOME 3.12 Header Bars?

I don't know.

I do know that difficulty seeing titles was recognised as a critical, high priority bug – and fixed.

If the design of Safari 8 was inspired by Gnome, then Apple has not realised that, for some workflows, Safari is critically flawed.

Developers did the sensible thing: Gnome Web was fixed. Here:

attachment.php


The title, the address.

My fear is that Apple will be too stubborn to realise its mistake before Yosemite is released.

I'm utterly gobsmacked that alarm bells didn't ring before WWDC.
 

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dsemf

macrumors 6502
Jul 26, 2014
442
116
The examples involving Feedback Assistant were naturally occurring.

I don't have Yosemite on my laptop and so (with apologies) the image below is a mock-up, with more exaggeration than I would have liked (no shadows, and so on). Hopefully people can get the idea …

Image

It's not easy to identify two of the apps.

Does anything in Yosemite prevent arrangements such as this?

I have been following this thread for awhile and your latest examples finally clicked for me. The irony is that, at least for the examples, there is little, if any, space saved on the window height.

Thanks,

DS
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,525
19,688
Each one of those three apps may appear beautiful in isolation, or where all windows are separated.

[...]

What happens when a title bar, untitled toolbar or titled toolbar of something appears above something that has no apparent border?

[...]

It's not easy to identify two of the apps.

Does anything in Yosemite prevent arrangements such as this?

Ok, I think I get your point. Frankly, I have spent quite some time with Yosemite already (and in fact, I am running it as my main OS on my production machine since a few days) — and I have never run into a scenario like that. Your criticism involves quite specific arrange of windows to make the point, which I have simply never run into naturally. The windows are usually too large to touch in the way you are showing them in your first mockup, and even if they do (I tried it out), I personally don't experience any disorientation or otherwise difficulty in identifying the apps. In your second example (with the multiple window frames) — sure, the windows are impossible to identify. But if you already do such a mess on your desktop, then you should navigate via Mission Control or the Dock, and this was already true for Mavericks and basically every OS X before that. I have TONS of open application most of the time and I didn't have any trouble navigating them in Yosemite — in any case not any more trouble that I already had on Tiger, Leopard, etc. In that regard, OS X was always 'weak' when compared to systems like Windows, because it does not offer any automatic windows arrangement (like tiling, snapping, etc). But then again, it does not matter — because OS X was designed with different organisation tools in mind, such as virtual desktops and app switchers.

So again, to reiterate: while your examples make some sense — if you look at them in isolation — they are of little consequence outside artificial arrangements. If you look at the OS as a whole, I fail to see a critical issue. Your mistake (IMO) is that you are concentrating on the window borders and completely ignoring the actual application content. However, our brain focuses a unit of content at one given time — and Yosemite, which appears to borrow heavily from the Gestaltpsychology trick box — is very good at aiding the brain in this. If the OS would involve working with lots of small windows at the same time, you would be right. But this is simply not the case. You usually have one - three larger windows on a single screen that you need to focus at any given time. And Yosemite handles that very well. So your question of 'how easy is it to identify individual windows' is simply of no practical consequence, at least not in scenarios you describe.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… The windows are usually too large to touch in the way you are showing them in your first mockup …

Sorry, that was not intended to be a mock-up. In post #524 I simply showed, unmodified, three of the images that were originally provided by jkkool.

(Note the edit line there, a few hours ago: "sorry, I can't easily scale down the images".)

My intention there was to emphasise that each window is "beautiful in isolation".

In your second example (with the multiple window frames) — sure, the windows are impossible to identify. … you should navigate via Mission Control or the Dock,

I do so (in Mavericks) – frequently, and very happily. Typically with keystrokes. Plus Command-F12 for Launchpad then find-as-you-type, and Spotlight to launch or switch to an app, and more than anything: application switching with Command-Tab and other key combinations. The application switcher is a particularly useful complement when I switch to single application mode for the Dock. Plus fullscreen without hesitation, whenever that's beneficial. The ways in which those features of the operating system work together – coherently and predictably – exemplify Apple at, or close to, its best.

Add to those things: hopping between Windows, Linux and OS X in both physical machines and VirtualBoxVM apps, knowing to add (or refrain from) certain keystrokes to work with the peculiarities of the latter. Plus Outlook 2007 in CrossOver, knowing to not accidentally use MS Windows keystrokes despite the Windows appearance of things. I try to be very good at adapting to change – when that change is good.

Yes, Mission Control is both beautiful and functional. However, to remind people about such things is to lose sight of what was, to me, genuinely and frequently troublesome:
  • the state of windows in their natural state, when I simply observed the screen.

Those observations were often after spending time away from my desk with tasks that are diverse and/or fragmented. First impressions of what I returned to with Yosemite: too disorienting, too often.

The operating system should help me to recognise and interpret – immediately, at a glance – the screen, as it was when I left it.

A natural approach to immediate recognition: titles, predictably and consistently positioned at the heads of windows.

Instead, I found myself battling with Yosemite, with no way of restoring lost functionality. For me to find that degree of worsening at an Apple operating system level is unprecedented.

… OS X was always 'weak' when compared to systems like Windows, because it does not offer any automatic windows arrangement (like tiling, snapping, etc). But then again, it does not matter …

For me, those things do matter. So I use things such as BetterSnapTool, and SizeWell (with EasySIMBL) … but not always. There's also a huge amount of everyday dragging of things, dragging as a prelude to computer-assisted tidying.

So again, to reiterate: while your examples make some sense — if you look at them in isolation — they are of little consequence outside artificial arrangements.

Here, the opposite. Yosemite was naturally problematic. Nothing artificial drove my feedback to Apple.

Off the top of my head, maybe only two mock-ups from me in the Yosemite area of MacRumors Forums; one of those was of Classic and explicitly for fun.

Fun aside … seriously, I found Yosemite to be initially disorienting – not always, but often enough and troublesome enough for me to know that something was wrong and giving it time was not proving to be a workaround. The difficulties became harder to bear. To the point where I rebelled.

Your mistake (IMO) is that you are concentrating on the window borders and completely ignoring the actual application content.

Not so, but I can understand how that impression is gained. It's impossible to convey a holistic user experience within the constraints of a forum such as this. (I would not attempt to convey the whole thing; most of the whole must remain confidential.)

… your question of 'how easy is it to identify individual windows' is simply of no practical consequence, at least not in scenarios you describe.

Here, the opposite. I rebelled because multiple consecutive pre-releases of Yosemite proved to be less practical, less productive, more disorienting than Mavericks when applied to my real-world situations.

YMMV of course :)
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,525
19,688
@grahamperrin, I think I understand now better what you mean, and it does sound very reasonable and well-argumented. But I simply can't "replicate" your experience for myself — and I have spend quite some time trying. I guess we simply have different workflows/mindsets/habits or just look at different things. Of course, it does not make your points less valid. Probably, this is the case of "can't make them all happy" ;)

At any rate, I do not believe that there will be any changes to Yosemite which will make it more the way you want — the basic design language has been established and will probably stay here for quite some time. To fix the things you are criticising, they would need to go back to the drawing board and reset some APIs + remodel all the apps. It is simply not going to happen.
 

hamis92

macrumors 6502
Apr 4, 2007
475
87
Finland

I just want to say I really appreciate how insightful and well-constructed your posts on this matter are. I've been following along the conversation and oftentimes after reading one of your posts it feels like my thoughts had already been put into words.
 

coldjeanzzz

macrumors 6502a
Nov 4, 2012
655
17
Aha!! I don't like the system fonts at all in Yosemite.



So after reinstalling the beta, I went looking for something to help.



Found this :

https://github.com/jenskutilek/FiraSystemFontReplacement



This allows changing the system fonts on a per user basis. I find these fonts to be much better than the ultra skinny crap Apple thinks is wonderful!!
Just my opinion but I think this font looks even worse.

I wish there was a way to revert back to Lucida Grande
 

FrtzPeter

macrumors member
Aug 11, 2014
77
3
Yosemite doesn't impress me one bit!

I assume the OS loads it's GUI stuff with libraries when starting. Why not make 2 sets of libraries, one for the Mavericks look and one for the Yosemite look and then allow the user to configure it to choose which one they want to use. It will keep everyone happy.

Apple ought to also abandon their planned hardware/OS obsolescence program. If they don't they'll lose customers.

With both Microsoft and now Apple seeming to go out of their ways to try and alienate their customers, now would be the time for another operating system maker like Sun/Oracle to step up to the plate and offer a stable, viable option that makes sense. With a little work I think Solaris could really win some converts.

Although I (used to) love OS X, with it looking the way it's apparently going to look, I'd rather use X Windows on a Solaris system than have no choice but to look at Yosemite.

Just my opinions, of course.
 

xVeinx

macrumors 6502
Oct 9, 2006
361
0
California
Yosemite doesn't impress me one bit!

I assume the OS loads it's GUI stuff with libraries when starting. Why not make 2 sets of libraries, one for the Mavericks look and one for the Yosemite look and then allow the user to configure it to choose which one they want to use. It will keep everyone happy.

Apple ought to also abandon their planned hardware/OS obsolescence program. If they don't they'll lose customers.

With both Microsoft and now Apple seeming to go out of their ways to try and alienate their customers, now would be the time for another operating system maker like Sun/Oracle to step up to the plate and offer a stable, viable option that makes sense. With a little work I think Solaris could really win some converts.

Although I (used to) love OS X, with it looking the way it's apparently going to look, I'd rather use X Windows on a Solaris system than have no choice but to look at Yosemite.

Just my opinions, of course.

Apple wants developers to target a common interface. Supporting multiple UIs and trying to support too many configurations would introduce bugs that would be harder to resolve, and limit support of the newer interface (when changes need to be made). How long did it take Adobe to provide hiDPI support? If something doesn't work with the Yosemite UI, they'd just tell you to switch back to Maverick's UI and stop complaining :).

Um, there is no way that Solaris could catch up any time soon, if for no other reason than drivers. Having spent time using Opensolaris for a time (and used Solaris SunSpark machines some time ago), there is a learning curve that many users would have to get used to (plus you would need developers that understood the differences in compiling for Solaris versus Apple, Linux, etc.). It's a nice thought, but doesn't make any practical sense.

People using older versions of OS X are still doing fine. My roommate is using Snow Leopard without trouble. I appreciate wanting the latest features on your hardware (honest!), but Apple tends to tie features to specific hardware because of performance/power advantages. As long as you can install the operating system for some time yet (still support for any Sandy and above notebooks), it's not unreasonable, plus each OS is supported with patches for 3(?) years. Say, 8+ years of support for a computer? I fail to see the problems with that, especially when that is a good life expectancy for a machine before problems and the cost of repair warrants a new machine purchase.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
Yosemite doesn't impress me one bit!

I assume the OS loads it's GUI stuff with libraries when starting. Why not make 2 sets of libraries, one for the Mavericks look and one for the Yosemite look and then allow the user to configure it to choose which one they want to use. It will keep everyone happy.

Why not just have a theme manager? Even OS9 had one. No, Apple doesn't want that. They want conformity. I always figured it was just Jobs that wanted conformity, but I'm guessing that he hand picked Tim Cook for one reason and one reason only (obviously not for innovation because he has none) and that is he would continue the principle of conformity in Apple.

Apple ought to also abandon their planned hardware/OS obsolescence program. If they don't they'll lose customers.

They don't care. They never have and they never will. If they didn't care when they were about to go bankrupt in the late '90s, they sure as hell don't care now when they're the richest most profitable tech company on Earth. Just look at all the fanatics on here that use the "they're making money so that means they're right" argument without end. Honestly, I think they'd be happy to lose complainers so they don't have to pay out anything for defects or rebates or whatever (Fanatics don't complain about anything, after all. They just bow down and worship).

With both Microsoft and now Apple seeming to go out of their ways to try and alienate their customers

No, you have it wrong. I've been told before that I must be an old fogey to complain. I can't stand change! Flat is the new deep and ugly is the new pretty! And the '80s/'90s flat GUI look is retro, after all even if some people can't see it. ;)

, now would be the time for another operating system maker like Sun/Oracle to step up to the plate and offer a stable, viable option that makes sense. With a little work I think Solaris could really win some converts.

Solaris? That thing is stuck in the stone ages. Linux has made more meaningful progress and has far more users, I think and it couldn't even keep Flash support (not that Flash is great, but it does mean Adobe considers the platform less relevant today than it did a few years ago and with things like Gnome 3 being just awful (IMO), who can blame them?

Although I (used to) love OS X, with it looking the way it's apparently going to look, I'd rather use X Windows on a Solaris system than have no choice but to look at Yosemite.

Have fun with Solaris. I couldn't even find enough useful software to run on Linux and it gets way more support. As ugly as some parts of Yosemite are, being able to run quality software is more important.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
hamis92: thanks. I confess, some of my feedback to Apple was poorly written. The words of someone who was at times gobsmacked, puzzled, flabbergasted and ultimately: exasperated. Less verbosely: WTF was Apple thinking?

… I do not believe that there will be any changes to Yosemite which will make it more the way you want — the basic design language has been established and will probably stay here for quite some time. To fix the things you are criticising, they would need to go back to the drawing board and reset some APIs + remodel all the apps.

For apps such as Calculator, and a few others: whilst the apps are less user-friendly, the apps do remain usable.

I can not excuse Apple's removal of the title bar from an app that is primarily designed to show titled content.

… one for the Mavericks look and one for the Yosemite look and then allow the user to configure it to choose which one they want to use. It will keep everyone happy. …

Yeah, maybe a pane in System Preferences – Appearance or Desktop environment or User interface or plain english of some sort.

Not necessarily an Apple-provided pane. There's a long history of third party developers allowing users to go beyond the constraints of Apple's UI. Before Yosemite, I rarely wished to do so.

Now, a third party approach to restoring what's missing would be a prerequisite to choosing Yosemite for myself.

Earlier this evening I experimented for a while with use of Yosemite-like things in Mavericks. I'll post a screenshot later.

I do like the three buttons of Yosemite, but I feel that Apple's design of Mavericks is superior in almost every way. My gut feeling, around ninety-five percent of the UI changes in Yosemite are experiments that will make it to release not because the changes represent best practice, but because Apple decided – before WWDC – to jettison best practice for the sake of novelty and some 'wow' factor.

Apple must have known that reducing functionality and ease of use would have a polarising effect. And here I am, strategically planning my next Apple purchase to occur before Yosemite becomes a requirement. And no longer planning to get a more modern iPhone.

I love what Apple is planning around continuity (and if my suspicions are correct, some of what's secret will be extraordinarily good) but if the Yosemite UI as we see it now is the only foundation: I'll take my time and look elsewhere.

For a change, around an hour ago I booted DP 4. Updating to DP 5. Back soon …
 
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lparsons21

macrumors 6502
Jun 3, 2014
451
208
Southern Illinois
The thing that concerns me with Apple should I decide to not upgrade to Yosemite, is what about ancillary services like iCloud.



Will Mavericks get the 'new' iCloud? How about older versions? And if not, will the current iCloud remain available?



I think the answer to the last is no, the current iCloud will disappear. And I'm nearly convinced that the new iCloud will only work with Yosemite and beyond.



For that reason alone, my tech gear is doing some changing. I'll keep my MPBr with Mavericks UNLESS some very different fonts and color selections show up in the release Yosemite.



But my tech eggs won't all stay in the Apple camp. I already have a SurfacePro that I use for nearly everything I do with a tablet and have a new touch desktop ordered to replace an aging i3 laptop. It will primarily run PlayOn and will be the 'server' for other things. And there is a not-slight possibility I'll move to away from Apple laptops and desktops at some point in the future.
 

cjmillsnun

macrumors 68020
Aug 28, 2009
2,399
48
Apple ought to also abandon their planned hardware/OS obsolescence program. If they don't they'll lose customers.

Bear in mind any Mac that can run Lion 10.7 can run Mountain Lion, Mavericks and Yosemite... I don't know where that one has come from.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
A sad thirtieth anniversary for the Mac

Safari

I feel like I have said more than enough about abandonment of the title bar. I just keep slowly shaking my head in disbelief. Enough from me, I'll leave readers with some cranky reaction from the folks at MacWorld:

http://www.macworld.com/article/2450066/hands-on-with-os-x-yosemite-safari-slims-down.html

----

Yosemite in general

… around an hour ago I booted DP 4. Updating to DP 5. Back soon …

First impressions: out of the box, no shortage of things to appreciate – attention to detail is remarkable – but the overall effect, when I try to get going, is harsh.

It saddens me to say this, but two words come to mind after stepping back to Mavericks:
  • Yosemite was bleak and unforgiving.

Credit where credit is due

Ignoring what's OOTB, after making some changes for accessibility:
  • some of what Apple has done is exquisite.
If the Mac was to come of age at thirty, then some of what's in Yosemite would have been flawless as finishing touches.

The trouble

I can't go into detail (sorry), it just feels like Apple is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But not a newborn baby.

It's a mature and beautiful thing, nurtured for twenty-nine years … then unceremoniously poked and prodded. Shaved or coiffured hurriedly and somewhat unevenly. Deshabillé in a way that might be spiffing with Champagne, overexcitement and too-loud laughter, but some people at the party are quietly cringing. Amongst the gifts brought to the anniversary, some are understated but breathtakingly beautiful. But your old friend is a drunken mess. You don't know what to do with the gift that you brought. You imagined a celebration, but not like this. Maybe the gift goes back in your pocket. You imagine that after the hangover, your friend will again be the person for whom you chose the gift. Deep inside something tells you otherwise.

Blah, blah, blah. And then when your bored with reading or listening to blah, more blah. I know, it's only a computer but I'm genuinely a little sad and blah is what happens in this situation. Not like I'm about to cry, not even if I get hammered, just flat-sad, like a person might be if they separated from a life partner whilst continuing to live with that person. Functional but no spark and no longer inclined to put anything into the relationship. Apple, WTF.

Finishing touches, but the thing that those touches were designed for is essentially spoilt.

Ah well. It's only software :)
 

tkermit

macrumors 68040
Feb 20, 2004
3,586
2,921
it's a mature and beautiful thing, nurtured for twenty-nine years … then unceremoniously poked and prodded. Shaved or coiffured hurriedly and somewhat unevenly. deshabillé in a way that might be spiffing with champagne, overexcitement and too-loud laughter, but some people at the party are quietly cringing. Amongst the gifts brought to the anniversary, some are understated but breathtakingly beautiful. But your old friend is a drunken mess. You don't know what to do with the gift that you brought. You imagined a celebration, but not like this. Maybe the gift goes back in your pocket. You imagine that after the hangover, your friend will again be the person for whom you chose the gift. Deep inside something tells you otherwise.

Blah, blah, blah. And then when your bored with reading or listening to blah, more blah. I know, it's only a computer but i'm genuinely a little sad and blah is what happens in this situation. Not like i'm about to cry, not even if i get hammered, just flat-sad, like a person might be if they separated from a life partner whilst continuing to live with that person. Functional but no spark and no longer inclined to put anything into the relationship.

#
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,525
19,688
Well, you see, grahamperrin, for you its an 'uneven shave', while for me its cutting of the excess fat. In my opinion, Yosemite is the most visually consistent OS ever, and a natural evolution of what has been happening to OS X over the years. Its slick, modern, beautiful, crisp, elegant and 100% functional. And I couldn't care less about title bars in Safari or the recognisability of background windows. The new look fits perfectly with how I use the computer.

And sure, changes are always polarising. I have been always very fond of Apple because they are crazy enough to push change despite the protests — and their changes quite often (not always, but often) make perfect sense. I 'get' what they are trying to do with Yosemite. In contrast, Windows 8 is a usability and productivity nightmare.

Finally, to all of you who are complaining about theme managers etc. — the reason why OS X does not have one is because window themes do not work. They never have. They lead to visual inconsistency and ugly software — just look at Linux. Funnily enough, Yosemite is an OS X to actually introduce visual themes. There are two themes — dark and light, which both come with their own control rendering etc. — and there are signs that there will be more themes in the future. However, the difference here is that these themes are carefully designed to play with the rest of the system.
 

timshundo

macrumors regular
Jun 17, 2009
225
200
San Francisco, CA
Don't confuse those who would refuse to update BECAUSE of the GUI changes from those that simply DON'T LIKE IT. I'm in the latter camp. Some changes are OK, but the cartoon look of window decorations I'm seeing in snapshots undermines every single version of OS X that's ever been released thus far (i.e. it's been a constant and to me the "symbol" of OS X's "look" compared to OS9 or even various Windows incarnations. It's instantly recognizable. The "gel" look (Aqua) should not be completely eliminated unless they're ready to move to OS 11 (i.e. that's when the OS9 window decorations changed). Honestly, how anyone could actually prefer the "flat" cartoon look to the current interface is mind boggling beyond me. It's SO UGLY it's UNREAL. There were some flat themes for Windows 3.1 and early X-Windows. Do we really want to go back to that chintzy GARBAGE look? Flat buttons and flat traffic lights. God it's ugly.



Like I said, it's ABSURD to assume people wouldn't upgrade JUST because of the looks. I'm sure a few would, but let's face it, updating the hardware means getting the newer OS whether you like it or not at some point and that will inevitably be true of OS X as well when software support dries up. You cannot ASSUME that because people have upgraded for practical reasons like improved (no GUI) features or even the simple ability to run updated versions of software (kind of important to most) that they somehow "approve" of the GUI changes.

If you REALLY want to know some actual figures of GUI approval instead of making these wild guesses, you could create a poll on the matter, although it would be more accurate once the final version of Yosemite is released. Simply asking about the GUI rather than all of the features will be far more accurate than basing it on how many have upgraded. Most people do not upgrade based on GUI looks, but rather they need to run newer software and/or want newer functional features (e.g. Mavericks updated OpenGL to 3.x). Do you really think most people holding out with Snow Leopard are doing it because of GUI changes? There may be a few, but most hold onto it for the ability to run older software (e.g. Rosetta still works) and/or perceived stability reasons with the software they run most often. I remember a ruckus about changes to Spaces, but I doubt it visually ran much further aground than that.



Yes, and it is still UGLY. But people get newer hardware and are FORCED to run it or switch platforms. Don't confuse adoption with preference. I assure you they are NOT the same thing.



Sorry, but like I said, your statement has ZERO validity. Adoption of newer upgrades has NOTHING to do with the GUI appearance since Apple FORCES you to upgrade when you buy newer hardware and the shelf life of iOS devices is a a year or two on average. Combine that with software developers DUMPING SUPPORT in newer versions for iOS6 *long* before that and you have valid reasons to upgrade despite the problems of iOS7. A more valid reason to not upgrade would have been slow performance on older devices. But that does not mean people prefer the GUI looks of iOS7. You simply CANNOT make that logical leap for said reasons and to do so shows a total lack of logical thinking, IMO.



You assume there is a difference between the design team and any other team. Apple moves developers around like musical chairs. If you think Johnny Ives is incapable of anything but artwork, you're sadly mistaken.

You're right, I can't assume everyone that upgraded to iOS 7 actually liked it. Fortunately, there are numbers for that too:

MV2chSm.png


Can't wait to see a similar number for Yosemite! Sorry dude.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Immutable design misfits in Yosemite. Ultimately, yes: it's terrible.

Heheh, just when I thought I could put an iCork in my side of the titles discussion … ;-)

… In my opinion, Yosemite is the most visually consistent OS ever … 100% functional …

For content that is titled, forcibly hiding titles is a dysfunctional starting point.

I do understand and appreciate that some Safari use cases do not require titles. However: if Apple assumes that all other use cases can be somehow bent into shape, or ignored: that's a disgraceful assumption.

Square peg, round hole, and the misfit is immutable: there's potential for fun, especially if the toys are colourful and bash-proof; but to make that misfit immutable is a fugly approach to design.

Some of the best parts of a previously outstanding operating system are reduced to a sandpit. A pit that's simply not fit for exquisite finishing touches. I find that deplorable.

Yosemite is – in itself, and as a potential platform for third party apps – far from the most visually consistent operating system ever. Apple appears to ignore the true answers to some fundamental questions. For example …

Can the novel appearance be applied consistently to all types of windowed app?

----

With apologies to OldGuyTom (opening poster) and others: when I first saw the title of this topic, long before I participated, I rolled my eyes and thought, "Here we go. Inflammatory title. Cue: pages and pages of knee-jerk reactionaries who can't be bothered to take a well-rounded, holistic view of things.". My assumption was totally wrong. I'm sorry. There's some great stuff here.

Healthy disagreements, and I have certainly learnt some stuff, but when I suspend all arguments and prejudice, there's an acid test: do I enjoy Yosemite after a week or two away?

No. Calmly, patiently and clearly: the potential to enjoy using Mac hardware is reduced by Yosemite. So greatly reduced that I have no regrets about abandoning feedback to Apple. Yosemite goes too far against the grain. Honestly, and I'm not being overdramatic, my gut tells me that it's wrong to condone development of something that is essentially going in a wrong direction. I am that reactionary person, but it's not a knee-jerk.

Mavericks is fundamentally far more pleasing to me.

----

After careful consideration … whilst I can not agree with everything in the opening post, I'm with OldGuyTom on the essence. The opening line. Overall, yes: Yosemite looks terrible!
 

randomgeeza

macrumors 6502a
Aug 12, 2014
624
460
United Kingdom
Heheh, just when I thought I could put an iCork in my side of the titles discussion … ;-)



For content that is titled, forcibly hiding titles is a dysfunctional starting point.

I do understand and appreciate that some Safari use cases do not require titles. However: if Apple assumes that all other use cases can be somehow bent into shape, or ignored: that's a disgraceful assumption.

Square peg, round hole, and the misfit is immutable: there's potential for fun, especially if the toys are colourful and bash-proof; but to make that misfit immutable is a fugly approach to design.

Some of the best parts of a previously outstanding operating system are reduced to a sandpit. A pit that's simply not fit for exquisite finishing touches. I find that deplorable.

Yosemite is – in itself, and as a potential platform for third party apps – far from the most visually consistent operating system ever. Apple appears to ignore the true answers to some fundamental questions. For example …

Can the novel appearance be applied consistently to all types of windowed app?

----

With apologies to OldGuyTom (opening poster) and others: when I first saw the title of this topic, long before I participated, I rolled my eyes and thought, "Here we go. Inflammatory title. Cue: pages and pages of knee-jerk reactionaries who can't be bothered to take a well-rounded, holistic view of things.". My assumption was totally wrong. I'm sorry. There's some great stuff here.

Healthy disagreements, and I have certainly learnt some stuff, but when I suspend all arguments and prejudice, there's an acid test: do I enjoy Yosemite after a week or two away?

No. Calmly, patiently and clearly: the potential to enjoy using Mac hardware is reduced by Yosemite. So greatly reduced that I have no regrets about abandoning feedback to Apple. Yosemite goes too far against the grain. Honestly, and I'm not being overdramatic, my gut tells me that it's wrong to condone development of something that is essentially going in a wrong direction. I am that reactionary person, but it's not a knee-jerk.

Mavericks is fundamentally far more pleasing to me.

----

After careful consideration … whilst I can not agree with everything in the opening post, I'm with OldGuyTom on the essence. The opening line. Overall, yes: Yosemite looks terrible!

Agreed... And as a reported UI consistency and to demonstrate the above, take a look at the icons on the App Store, iBooks and GameCentre. Albeit, the OS is in beta... but do I think these misaligned icons will be realigned/centred prior to the release... shade matched...? Nope, I don't and yes I have raised FB re: the issue.

I'm staying with Mavericks, even though it is not perfect in itself.

The devil is in the detail. And up until iOS7 & OS 10.10 the detail was there. Those little nuances that no one notices weren't noticed and yet now they are gone/messed up, they stand out like a sore thumb.

Apple's current design decisions make me sad.

Hi, btw, new guy to the block... been reading this thread with interest and felt compelled to add my voice.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,525
19,688
For content that is titled, forcibly hiding titles is a dysfunctional starting point.

I do understand and appreciate that some Safari use cases do not require titles. However: if Apple assumes that all other use cases can be somehow bent into shape, or ignored: that's a disgraceful assumption.

The title is still visible in the tab header. So you can still easily recognise what is what. If you have only one window open you don't need the title because, well, there is no need to discriminate different items. I really fail to see what the big issue is. I mean, sure, they could have provided a switch to let the title back in to make users like you happier, but its such a minor and inconsequential thing...

Can the novel appearance be applied consistently to all types of windowed app?

Of course it can. Apple has a clear set of UI design guidelines and best practices. And while the new design elements can obviously be abused, its not like it was not the case before.

Bottomline: its OK for windows to look differently. And: consistency does not mean that everything looks the same. Consistency means unambiguity in context: that a stimulus A in a context B always has an interpretation C (which is intuitively expected). The novelty of Yosemite is that it allows the developer to use visual cues such as depth, which focus the content. The possibility to eliminate the title bar is a welcome thing for many apps (e.g. Calendar, Address Book, Calculator and the like).
 

alanrocks

macrumors regular
Nov 15, 2011
164
2
United Kingdom
I personally like Yosemite, having used it for the past two weeks in work I am really impressed with some of the features and design. Obviously I am encountering some glitches which can become a bit of a pain but I am definitely looking forward for the full version going live!
 

TW!SM

macrumors regular
May 10, 2009
103
9
I personally like Yosemite, having used it for the past two weeks in work I am really impressed with some of the features and design. Obviously I am encountering some glitches which can become a bit of a pain but I am definitely looking forward for the full version going live!

I was gonna type almost the exact thing... I am enjoying the look and feel of Yosemite.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Tabs are no substitute for a title bar

The title is still visible in the tab …

Reposted from https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19457292#post19457292

-----

… the tabs themselves does the same job as the title-bars. …

Unfortunately not.

Mavericks

  1. The title.

The title – in its entirety, unless it's extraordinarily long.

Command-click to reveal the proxy icon menu.

Yosemite
  1. A bar of tools that might be not needed, with a domain (or description of a domain or a URL) in the midst of the tools
  2. a bar of bookmarks that almost certainly do not relate to the body of the page
  3. only part of a title – in the midst of other parts of other titles that may be unrelated to the required title.

Is there a proxy icon menu and if so, from where does the menu drop?

Mavericks

Title bars:

title%20bars%20in%20Mavericks.png


Yosemite

Title bars?
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
You're right, I can't assume everyone that upgraded to iOS 7 actually liked it. Fortunately, there are numbers for that too:

Image

Can't wait to see a similar number for Yosemite! Sorry dude.

Does it ask if they prefer the iOS7 GUI "looks" over the iOS6 and earlier ones? No. It says "overall" satisfaction and I doubt the GUI "pretty factor" is the highest priority on people's list of whether they like their phone. More to the point, the one's that didn't like it didn't buy or bought Android instead. Given Android accounts for over 80% of the smart phone and tablet market, I'd say the number borders on meaningless.

I don't know that I'd trust Apple numbers on such a thing to begin with. Where did they poll this information? I've never received any polling data for ANY Apple product I've purchased. I think they are pulling those numbers out their back side, to be honest. You think they'd post unfavorable statistics? Let's see a 3rd party poll. Heck, you could do one here quite easily, I believe. Post a poll and ask how many prefer the GUI looks of iOS7 over iOS6 or earlier. See what you get. I doubt you'd get 97% or even remotely close to it.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,427
2,110
Berlin
Reposted from https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19457292#post19457292

-----



Unfortunately not.

Mavericks

  1. The title.

The title – in its entirety, unless it's extraordinarily long.

Command-click to reveal the proxy icon menu.

Yosemite
  1. A bar of tools that might be not needed, with a domain (or description of a domain or a URL) in the midst of the tools
  2. a bar of bookmarks that almost certainly do not relate to the body of the page
  3. only part of a title – in the midst of other parts of other titles that may be unrelated to the required title.

Is there a proxy icon menu and if so, from where does the menu drop?

Mavericks

Title bars:

Image

Yosemite

Title bars?

Plus you won't be able to distinguish between windows because there's no shadow anymore.
 
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