Yosemite looks terrible!

[grahamperrin]

Title bars are a fundamental user interface element

OS X Human Interface Guidelines

The Philosophy of UI Design: Fundamental Principles

Good product design incorporates a number of timeless principles for human-computer interaction. The principles described in this chapter are critical to the design of elegant, efficient, intuitive, and Aqua-compliant user interfaces. In fact, they drive the design of the OS X user interface.

– http://tinyurl.com/riposxhig​

… Its the principles (familiarity, simplicity, availability, discoverability) that matter, not whether the window has a title bar or not (which is an implementation detail). In another words, its 'timeless principles', not 'stale design'

Back to Apple's 1999 2009 experimental abandonment of the title bar. From the author of Designed for Use: Create Usable Interfaces for Applications and the Web:

"… I never liked window title bars … a waste of space … I never liked tabs … They break Exposé … They hide things … title bars are … a fundamental user interface element …"​

– ignore the code: On Tabs and Docking and Title Bars (highlights)​

He doesn't like title bars – fair enough. He does make many very reasonable observations in that article, and others.


Title bars are a fundamental user interface element

I firmly believe that it does matter whether the window has a title bar.

If something so fundamental is to be removed, then what remains must be at least as good.

The remnants of OS X are not good enough in build 14A343f. Use cases have been given.

For as long as Apple continues to develop a web browser for Mac that can not show either (a) a traditional title bar with a title in that bar, or (b) a title at top centre of its toolbar: I'll observe that the affected operating system looks terrible.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

So basically you don't care about a more modern look, better security, new safari, mail with mark up, new notification centre with widgets, new messages, much better spotlight, icloud drive, icloud photo library with new photos app and ffing CONTINUITY.

So "modern" in your world = butt ugly graphics? Mavericks still gets security updates and Safari updates (and no I don't even "ffing" USE Safari because it sucks). Messages has been and always will be annoying. I rarely use Spotlight, so who cares if it's so-called "better"; it could hardly be worse, really). I don't know who would even use an iCloud drive given the security risk and DOG SLOW access compared to a dirt cheap real hard drive. Continuity might be nice if the side effect wasn't the dumbing down of Macintosh Applications to iOS power levels for the sake of "continuity" over desktop power.

 

[grahamperrin]

Thanks and apologies

Points taken. …

… and I apologise for my occasional bluntness. To you, the same as previously said to leman (and others): don't take it too personally.

OK, back on topic, the appearance of the OS …

 

[leman]

Title bars are a fundamental user interface element

I firmly believe that it does matter whether the window has a title bar.

If something so fundamental is to be removed, then what remains must be at least as good.

The remnants of OS X are not good enough in build 14A343f. Use cases have been given.

For as long as Apple continues to develop a web browser for Mac that can not show either (a) a traditional title bar with a title in that bar, or (b) a title at top centre of its toolbar: I'll observe that the affected operating system looks terrible.

Hey Graham. Well, we have already talked about it in depth. I certainly agree with you that title bars are a fundamental user interface element, but again, that does not make them a mandatory interface element. The point of being a fundamental UI element is that it has to follow certain invariants. For titles, this is middle-top placement (and again, Safari does have a title bar, it simply does not show the information you want it to show). And as I have written before, I believe that the possibility to extend application content into the title bar (and removing the title bar) can benefit a number of applications without adverse effects (examples: Calculator, Contacts, etc.). In the end, its a question of taste. I can understand that some will see this kind of design decision as inconsistency.

Thank you for the article link, it was an interesting read! I agree with many points the author raises. However, I don't see how it supports your point of view. The author is talking about the tabs vs. windows problem and suggests that the OS should provide some sort of API for collapsing multiple windows into one as tabs. If I understand his argumentation correctly, the main point is consistent presentation of tabbed content. His solution is a bit naive (it certainly won't work as easily as he imagines it), but its certainly an interesting idea. But does it have anything to do with the current discussion (lack of central website title in Safari)? Not really.

Finally, don't you think that its a bit harsh to condemn an entire OS simply because the standard browser does not happen to appeal to you? There are multiple browsers on the market, and some of those might be more suitable for you. Then again, no modern browser has proper title bars anymore — everyone is moving to having titles on tabs.

 

[grahamperrin]

Thoughts

… a bit harsh to condemn an entire OS …

Yes and no … and what follows is for any reader who is puzzled or frustrated by the extremity of criticism – or lack of substance – in some of the posts under this topic.

Expect and accept that other users may have strongly held opinions that differ from yours.​

I always expect massive differences of opinion. More than that …

… I usually begin with an assumption that what's written is rumour or opinion – not fact. This is, first and foremost, a site for news and rumours; and some of that news is essentially reporting of opinions of people outside the macrumors.com domain. With that loose assumption as a starting point, anything that's factual and/or scientific becomes a bonus of sorts

Flip side: I sometimes fail miserably to do what's appropriate in a forum. Reasons for that are off-topic (I'll happily discuss elsewhere), I'll take this opportunity to repost a link to a short and very pleasantly thought-provoking free book by a leading community manager.

----

A few hours ago I drafted a post 'Validity with and without scientific measurement' … and another post explaining the scope of my condemnation of the appearance of the OS (with reference to some previously made points). I'll continue to have those drafts, and others, on hold whilst the temperature settles in this topic.

Cheers folks

 

[Eithanius]

So "modern" in your world = butt ugly graphics? Mavericks still gets security updates and Safari updates (and no I don't even "ffing" USE Safari because it sucks). Messages has been and always will be annoying. I rarely use Spotlight, so who cares if it's so-called "better"; it could hardly be worse, really). I don't know who would even use an iCloud drive given the security risk and DOG SLOW access compared to a dirt cheap real hard drive. Continuity might be nice if the side effect wasn't the dumbing down of Macintosh Applications to iOS power levels for the sake of "continuity" over desktop power.

I don't mean to interject, but have you been reading all his posts...? Stop wasting your time with him.

He is a Windows loser which have been lured by Apple's dumbing down of the OS. Don't forget Apple has since Lion been dumbing down the OS just to cater to a bigger pie of the market share. And this is what we get, more OS X users who thinks OS X should work more like Windows... After all, Yosemite looks more and more like a blatant copy of Windows 7 no...? All these efficiencies and stabilities died long ago. Nothing on OS X seems to work as it should be, as long as profit grows, then it works.

By the way, his first experience with OS X was Lion...

 

[grahamperrin]

Validity with and without scientific measurement

… what 'objective, scientific, measurable terms' are. They are not the same as 'wishful thinking'. …

Some time after I first raised my criticisms in this topic, leman (a scientist) wrote: "… Some of them, I can sympathise with (e.g. usability of Safari without website title or reduced contrast between windows) …". For me that was a small milestone – it seemed that leman was the first person to openly broaden his mind around the Safari 8 toolbar discussion.

To any reader: milestones can be reached through public debate without scientific measurement but it can be difficult and surprisingly time-consuming. (For me, four weeks of writing before an 'opponent' of my view became less opposed.)

Let's not always rush to dismiss a criticism because:

• it appears to lack scientific merit
• the critic misuses the word 'scientific'
• the critic offers no explanation for his or her opinion.

… it should be clear that Yosemite critics are in a clear minority. …

Yosemite Beta is great! ……………… 3 posts ……………… 506 views
Yosemite looks great! ………………… 34 posts ………… 2,873 views
Yosemite is Beautiful ……………… 133 posts ……… 28,323 views
Yosemite looks terrible! ……… 994 posts ……… 91,162 views

In the same way that I treat some poll results as unscientific, I treat those recent post and view counts as unscientific … but still, somewhat entertaining.

The popularity of this 'looks terrible!' topic is boosted, to a degree, by people who do not think that Yosemite looks terrible. The less popular topics, which began with praise for the looks, are boosted, to a degree, by people who dislike those looks. I know, there are scientific explanations for those forum behaviours …

… what 'objective, scientific, measurable terms' are. They are not the same as 'wishful thinking'. …

I wish for objective, scientific measurement of my saccades. I think that the results will help to prove that for some users:

• removal of the title bar from Safari causes frequent difficulties
• a reasonable amount of use of the app – without the title bar – does not ease those difficulties.

I wish, but I don't expect that scientific measurement to occur

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I don't mean to interject, but have you been reading all his posts...? Stop wasting your time with him.

He is a Windows loser which have been lured by Apple's dumbing down of the OS. Don't forget Apple has since Lion been dumbing down the OS just to cater to a bigger pie of the market share. And this is what we get, more OS X users who thinks OS X should work more like Windows... After all, Yosemite looks more and more like a blatant copy of Windows 7 no...?

Given how bad Windows 8 looks, I suppose Windows 7 is the pinnacle of the Bill Gates legacy to copy the Mac GUI interface. Imagine if our loser of a Supreme Court actually made the right decision back then, M$ would be still running DOS and long since dead and buried. But now they let everyone copy everyone else EXCEPT the consumer. We're not allowed to "copy" ANYTHING AT ALL since even though fair use was once ruled by a smarter court, they somehow think that digital is somehow "magically" different from analog, even lossy formats like MP3 and AAC. Sadly, when the world is run by bureaucrats, greedmongers and dictators, all logic, reason and wisdom go right out the proverbial "Windows".

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

There seems to be a lot of bickering about how many people prefer the new versus old(er) GUIs so I decided to post a POLL and simply ask which people on here prefer (if any). See the POLL here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1772847/

Perhaps at the very least, we can get a basic idea of how well (this community at least) likes Yosemite's graphics rather than just how many want to argue about it.

 

[snorkelman]

My 2 cents Ugly I can live with its just too damn inconsistent, arbitrary and distracting.

I can either put up with Dark mode menus or have my eyeballs scorched by a huge expanse of glowing white anytime I view the Dock apps in folder grid view, because one is dependent on the other.

the transparency works with some backgrounds but turns into a mishmash of hard to read menus with another. The readability of my OS menus shouldn't be contingent on the background image I pick

The Finder Go menu icons are now bland n colorless as per the finder sidebar since Lion; removing any ability to quickly home in on the appropriate one with familiar color-cues. Likewise for toolbar icons; too flat and featureless to discern what they are without pausing and looking.

Yet while half the usefulness has been bleached and squashed out of those, folder icons have now been given such a screaming color that they now distract from the text beneath them.

The blue elements in drop down lists etc also stick out like a sore thumb and draw the eye away from what's important.

Spotlight search icon is in same place on top menu as it always was, but instead of clicking it then moving cursor to the input box directly under neath to edit an existing search, I now have to click the icon then move cursor two thirds of the way across the screen and a third of the way down. Super.

Spotlight returns a fairly long list of results? The new cramped layout applied to it (and its starting position a quarter of the way down the screen) means I'm scrolling down the list long before I had to in the previous result layout ..AND as 'show all items in finder' is now at bottom of any list of results (rather than at the top) I'm scrolling a whole lot more often to reach that option than I ever had to before. Genius.

Changing the behavior of the maximize button to jump straight into full screen mode after umpteen years of a set behavior is totally unnecessary, if go full screen had to be tied to that button then that should have been the one added as a key based secondary action, not the pre-existing default!

The overall effect isn't beneficial at all - its like using OSX while someone stood behind me slaps me across the back of the head with a wet fish every 30 seconds and screams BANANA!! in my ear. Tiresome and annoying.

Stylish and modern? Purple bry-nylon shirts with collars that reached your nipples, matched to bell bottom flared orange loon pants were considered that at some point too.

My only consolation is this 'new look' might not last much longer than those..

 

[grahamperrin]

… I certainly agree with you that title bars are a fundamental user interface element …

Thank you for the article link, it was an interesting read! I agree with many points the author raises. However, I don't see how it supports your point of view. …

From some earlier posts e.g. https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/19497166/ I gained an impression that you did not treat the title bar as a fundamental user interface element. If I misread between the lines of those posts: I'm sorry. (I linked to the 2009 article mainly to show that some experts do treat the title bar as fundamental; also to bring other points of view, e.g. dockable windows, to the attention of readers.)

… no modern browser has proper title bars anymore — everyone is moving to having titles on tabs.

That's not entirely true, I'll come to that later.

Given how bad Windows 8 looks, I suppose Windows 7 is the pinnacle of the Bill Gates legacy to copy the Mac GUI interface. …

Maybe not a pinnacle of copying/trending. And if I understand the following article correctly, it's remarkable – pleasing – that Microsoft may be no longer attempting to make the operating system for (relatively substantial) desktop and notebook hardware appear too much like an operating system for hardware that is far less substantial.

Windows Threshold: The modern UI takes a backseat for desktop users - Neowin (2014-06-30)

… we get, more OS X users who thinks OS X should work more like Windows …

Is something Switch-like in the pipeline? I wonder.

… Yosemite looks more and more like a blatant copy of Windows 7 no...? …

Apple's CEO:

"… We’re not going to put Apple’s brand on something someone else designed. …"​

I recently gained the impression that at least some GNOME developers were delighted (complimented) by Apple's apparent copying of the design of the header bar of GNOME Web.

Apple's implementation is not the best. As Web was critically flawed without a title in its header bar, so Safari in Yosemite is critically flawed without a title in its toolbar.

Did Apple just copy Gnome 3's title bars? : linux (2014-06-02)

Other observers take a less charitable view of Apple's experiment.

"… please, see the Gnome Headerbars, and some of the flat icons that have been developed for Linux, honestly, that look a lot better …"​

– commentary under 28 Screen Shots of OS X Yosemite [Gallery]

bastecklein.com: New OSX Yosemite Safari a straight copy of GNOME web browser

I've seen the apple conference of 2014 and I feel outraged. | Trisquel GNU/Linux - Run free!

 

[hamis92]

Spotlight search icon is in same place on top menu as it always was, but instead of clicking it then moving cursor to the input box directly under neath to edit an existing search, I now have to click the icon then move cursor two thirds of the way across the screen and a third of the way down. Super.

Spotlight returns a fairly long list of results? The new cramped layout applied to it (and its starting position a quarter of the way down the screen) means I'm scrolling down the list long before I had to in the previous result layout ..AND as 'show all items in finder' is now at bottom of any list of results (rather than at the top) I'm scrolling a whole lot more often to reach that option than I ever had to before. Genius.

This sums up pretty well why I think the new Spotlight is perhaps the single most terrible change in the core OS. It's disorienting and oftentimes I'm not fully aware what will be opened when I hit return (since the item itself isn't clearly shown underneath what I'm typing).

 

[grahamperrin]

Test environments (some may be very sparse)

From the Yosemite hard to look at? topic:

… everything is OK if your in keynote-demo-mode: one window …

But if you layer app/document windows … After a few hours working with multiple windows …

It's nice to find people taking a relatively holistic approach √

The following comments are adapted from another popular topic …

Why so few apps, so few windows?

Very few screenshots show multiple windows. Even fewer show a variety of apps.​

I'd like the testers of Yosemite who commonly work with very few windows, or very few active apps, to think about why there's that nature to their test environment.

An answer might be simply, "I wanted to see whether feature such-and-such is good/bad/whatever". Fair enough.

I'm more interested in the whole caboodle – realistic, everyday uses of the Mac, examples that are not adjusted with other readers/observers in mind. Food for thought. Feedback to Apple (and add a comment here, if you like).

Thanks

 

[frgough]

This is such a hilarious post that I can't resist to comment on it. Point by point:

1. I think you misunderstood what 'objective, scientific, measurable terms' are. They are not the same as 'wishful thinking'. I love it when people try to add authority to their statements by saying they are 'scientific'.

2. I can argue that its exactly the other way around. In fact, the poll in a parallel thread shows that only 17% of voted users dislike the new interface. While its a fairly large number, it should be clear that Yosemite critics are in a clear minority.


P.S. I do agree that there is a readability issue with the Dock folders in certain scenarios. This should be tweaked.

Read the posts. You'll see the scientific arguments as to why Yosemite is a poorer UI than Mavericks. You'll also learn why skeumorphism is a good thing, why a UI should relate to the real world (hint: it has to do with intuitive operation). You'll also learn some of the things Apple itself has written regarding UI based on their research that they have abandoned in Yosemite. Just because you're ignorant of the science of UI design doesn't mean the science doesn't exist, or that Yosemite doesn't break it.

You will also find that a large number of criticisms surrounding Yosemite have nothing to do with how it looks in terms of aesthetics, but how the new look reduces USABILITY, usually with concrete examples of why.

 

[grahamperrin]

Read the posts. …

In fairness: from what's written in public – and private – I believe that leman has read most if not all of the posts in this topic, and more, and has responded admirably to new points of view.

 

[tkermit]

a large number of criticisms surrounding Yosemite have nothing to do with how it looks in terms of aesthetics, but how the new look reduces [*] USABILITY

* personally I'd choose affects there, as I wouldn't say it's actually been established that usability is (or will be, once Y is released) reduced

...deserves to be emphasised. Also the reason I think polls like this one are only marginally helpful in assessing reactions to Yosemite's UI...

 

[leman]

Read the posts. You'll see the scientific arguments as to why Yosemite is a poorer UI than Mavericks. You'll also learn why skeumorphism is a good thing, why a UI should relate to the real world (hint: it has to do with intuitive operation). You'll also learn some of the things Apple itself has written regarding UI based on their research that they have abandoned in Yosemite. Just because you're ignorant of the science of UI design doesn't mean the science doesn't exist, or that Yosemite doesn't break it.

You will also find that a large number of criticisms surrounding Yosemite have nothing to do with how it looks in terms of aesthetics, but how the new look reduces USABILITY, usually with concrete examples of why.

I was going to respond to this but I see Graham already did better than I ever could.

Still, you should probably read my posts (and there is an abundance of them) in this thread before you throw these kinds of accusations on me.

@Graham: Cheers buddy!

 

[frgough]

I was going to respond to this but I see Graham already did better than I ever could.

Still, you should probably read my posts (and there is an abundance of them) in this thread before you throw these kinds of accusations on me.

@Graham: Cheers buddy!

As a courtesy, I went through the first 20 pages of posts searching for your entries. They can be summed up as follows:

"I like the look."

"Your scenario doesn't apply to me, so the usability problems you cite don't really exist because I never see them."

"Apple is consistent in the way they break their interface guidelines, therefore they don't break their interface guidelines."

"Readability is a problem, but it's trivial, so it's not really a usability issue."

"The only content that matters on your screen is what is in a document window. Nothing else on the screen is content."

I stand by my original point.

 

[frgough]

In the end, the only test

that really matters is sales. iPhone and iPad sales are down. I can't help but wonder if some of that isn't driven by iOS 7 not being as enjoyable to use as iOS 6 was.

It will be interesting to see if Yosemite makes Macs even more desirable, boosting sales, or less desirable, reducing sales.

I think I'll stick my neck out here and predict Mac sales will start decreasing over the next 12 to 15 months, and Apple and analysts will cite everything except the OS as the reason.

 

[grahamperrin]

In the end, the only test that really matters is sales. …

If it's true that Apple wants to make the best, not the most then we should consider much more than just sales.

For what it's worth, I'd aim to take a decade-long view of things.

From a recent poll:

… Yosemite as my main OS for the past month … If I boot into my other partition of Mavericks, it looks really dated …

Foss, please:

• can you be specific about what's dated in Mavericks?
• how long might it be before a release of Yosemite appears dated to you?

 

[grahamperrin]

Cross reference

There are many subjective opinions here, and it's difficult to separate subjective opinions from the bias that is what we're used to, what looks familiar and what doesn't.

So take a look at Dieter Rams' 10 Principles of Good Design, which many people agree with. It's of course still subjective, but I think it has a lot of value when trying to judge design. …

Thanks again to baryon. When I first responded, it was with regard to the principles – without knowing anything about Dieter Rams.

I began reading about his work, and more, this evening. Some of the articles that I found most interesting are linked from the following post:

News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion > Jony Ive Discusses Design Philosophy, Relationship with Steve Jobs, and Future of Apple in New Interview (2014-03-17) > Apple, Bang & Olufsen, Braun, Dieter Rams and memorable objects

 

[leman]

As a courtesy, I went through the first 20 pages of posts searching for your entries. They can be summed up as follows:

...

I stand by my original point.

Well, you are entitled to your point, of course. However, I at least, try to bring some arguments and explain my reasoning. In contrast, you just state that Yosemite is a 'poorer interface than Mavericks' in 'objective, scientific, measurable terms', without actually giving any relevant argument or explanation, except the vague 'read the thread' — and I assure you, I have read the entire thing. I haven't seen much scientific or measurable yet. In addition, being a scientist myself, I tend to be rather cranky about people abusing those notions and wielding them while seemingly lacking a proper understanding what they mean (not to mention, that — in my opinion — your quote is a very crude and shallow representation of what I have written here, but whatever). At any rate, I don't really see how pseudo-authoritarian attitude like this is helpful for the purpose of this discussion.

Of course, all this has no bearing on Yosemite's success. Even on these forums, which are fairly biased and thus not a very good source of statistical data, users who like Yosemite outnumber those who don't like it by at least 4:1 (so much for 'vocal minority', as you claim). If you don't believe me — there are two polls in this very section of the forums, which were done at different times and are differently designed — the results are virtually the same.

And finally, should you have some proper arguments why Yosemite is 'scientifically' inferior, I would be very interested in hearing them. I have learned a number of interesting things when following and discussing on this topic (mostly thanks to Graham, who is never to tired to find all these cool links and articles about design) and I would certainly enjoy learning more. And who knows, you might actually prove me wrong.

 

[ZVH]

Several fans of Yosemite have used the word "progress" to describe the changes. Would any of you care to tell me logically, without any of Apple's marketing hype, just exactly how the change from Aqua to what I'll call "Jonathon Ive Flat" constitutes progress?

Has this change enhanced performance through optimization? NO.
Is it much easier to use? NO.
Does it fix bugs? H*LL NO!!!!
Are lives being saved because of its presence? NO.

Just exactly where is this "progress?"

Please define progress and provide evidence that Yosemite is actually progressing something...aside from being told that's what you're supposed to think.

 

[leman]

Please define progress and provide evidence that Yosemite is actually progressing something...aside from being told that's what you're supposed to think.

I thought that this thread was about visuals and not other features, but ok. First of all, Yosemite does fix a number of bugs and also introduces substantial optimisations over Mavericks, at least in my experience. Overall UI responsiveness, Mail, Safari, Calendar are quicker. I had some issues with WiFi and Mail on Mavericks, which have been fixed with Yosemite.

However, as you are asking about progress — here are just few things that quickly come to my mind. Yosemite's very substantial innovation is its introduction of a generalised plugin API. With it, developers can ship plugins that integrate in different kinds of other apps seamlessly. Another feature is OS-wide scriptability with JavaScript, which has also been introduced in Yosemite. Not to mention the whole iOS integration features. There are tons of new APIs and little improvements that makes it easier for developer to create good software faster.

But obviously, these things do not have anything to do with looks. So the discussion these kinds of improvements is orthogonal to the discussion of the OS design.

 

[grahamperrin]

OT: praising features and functionality

Off-topic from GUI/looks/appearance … a few quotes, mainly from this topic:

… certainly a step forward in functionality and features. …

… some of the new features, once they get them working OK are good, in fact probably an asset.

....but then there are the changes to the user interface. …

I love the new functionality, but dear GODS is OSX hideous and unprofessional looking now.

… the cool features do more good than that interface does harm. …

I thought that this thread was about visuals and not other features, but ok. First of all, Yosemite does fix a number of bugs and also introduces substantial optimisations over Mavericks, at least in my experience. Overall UI responsiveness, Mail, Safari, Calendar are quicker. I had some issues with WiFi and Mail on Mavericks, which have been fixed with Yosemite.

However, as you are asking about progress — here are just few things that quickly come to my mind. Yosemite's very substantial innovation is its introduction of a generalised plugin API. With it, developers can ship plugins that integrate in different kinds of other apps seamlessly. Another feature is OS-wide scriptability with JavaScript, which has also been introduced in Yosemite. Not to mention the whole iOS integration features. There are tons of new APIs and little improvements that makes it easier for developer to create good software faster.

But obviously, these things do not have anything to do with looks. So the discussion these kinds of improvements is orthogonal to the discussion of the OS design.

… I classify myself as what most people would call a power user … All of the new features are positively priceless …

Related

Apple Systems and Services > OS X > OS X Yosemite (10.10) > POLL: Is Yosemite UGLY or NOT? > Poll: first impressions of OS X Yosemite (more than ten thousand votes)