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2018 i9 MacBook Pro throttling discussion [merged]
- Thread starter M.Rizk
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See, that’s where I’m having cognitive issues. Because I want one of these machines. But it’s getting to the point where I’m hesitant to buy one of them because I’m honestly sick of holding my nose and buying things that aren’t really what I want because they’re the only things Apple will sell me.
I feel like a beggar, grateful for whatever scraps they throw me.
So I have a 2016 machine right now that I want to have the keyboard replaced in and then sell because I’m sick of having to carry a Bluetooth keyboard everywhere I go because my ‘x’ key randomly craps out every now and then.
Why do I do that? Why do I put up with it? Why have I put up with it for over a year now, since it first happened when the computer was 6 months old? Why don’t I demand better?
And why am I sort of relieved at the thought that these machines might not be so defective after all, because I still might buy one?
As long as idiots like me keep buying this crap no matter what, Apple will never be forced to improve.
Sorry for the rant. I’m in a rant-y mood.
EDIT: Fixed a really dumb typo.
I'm not familiar with that?
I am trying out the Turbo Boost Switcher and that worked very well, my mac was running 20c cooler, downside of course is the loss of turbo boost (performance)
Which may all be true. There is always plenty of blame to throw around, don't get me wrong. Ultimately my point is for the entry price (which in my opinion is closer to $3500 - $4000 than what they claim), the product designer and systems integrator owes it to us to QA the entire package before it gets into our hands. Simple due diligence and good engineering practices. Make sure all the pieces sing together: best OS is available, your flagship applications are tuned perfectly to show it off, real world benchmarks are run and the results are analyzed correctly etc...Otherwise just wait a few months until you get it right. Why can a few tech editors discover a 6$ fix after 30 minutes worth of testing with free open source tools? In IT we all know what this very clearly spells out: poor management and processes. But with their resources, unforgivable.
Nah, I get it. Believe me.
If you check out my post a few up there’s a link to notebookcheck who discovered that the problem seems to be Apple’s traditional use of temperature only as a throttle, rather than TDP and temps like everyone else. They used that utility (http://volta.garymathews.com/) to massively improve the situation by locking the TDP. There’s a free trial, so no risk.
Let’s blow 3000+ on a laptop and then disable turbo boost so it runs at base clock speed. Then let me try to justify it so I feel better about keeping the laptop.
I don’t care what anyone thinks or says though, so don’t try....this is due to the fact I only hear what I want to hear.
I don’t care what anyone thinks or says though, so don’t try....this is due to the fact I only hear what I want to hear.
Exactly. The conclusion is clear: its the priorities and the people who set them - management.
The utility I mentioned above doesn’t disable turbo. In fact notebookcheck found that it allowed sustained full turbo on a single core, the way it should work.
Let's put this bluntly and hope people will comprehend this:
The only software that can be optimized to help things with this situation and the i9-based 2018 MBPs in terms of the thermal issues that are so obviously turning up all over the place more and more by the moment is the firmware of the MBP itself with updated fan curves to allow the cooling system and the fans to kick into high(er) gear much faster than they are already doing so in the first release units.
There, that's it, in a nutshell.
To suggest that some software patch to Cinebench or Adobe Premiere or any other piece of application software is going to alleviate the thermal issues is beyond ludicrous, it really is. What, is Cinebench or Adobe Premiere going to enable some super-duper-top-secret cooling mechanism inside the i9 itself so it works better when pushed to 100% usage? Because if that's not possible then the only other way to comprehend this fiasco is that the fan curves as set now in the firmware/UEFI of the 2018 i9-based MBPs needs some fixin' and fast. Any application or program that pushes the i9 to max performance aka 100% CPU usage is going to make these thermal issues appear, whether it's 3D rendering with Cinebench, 4K+ video rendering with Adobe Premiere or Final Cut Pro, multiple instances of Prime95, multiple terminals running multiple instances of yes, whatever - 100% CPU usage is 100% CPU usage and that's that.
There is a high probability, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, that such an adjustment to the fan curves to enable them to respond faster and to higher RPMs will alleviate the issues being shown so clearly in so many videos but it's not really a fix - there can't be a fix in this situation since the i9 is apparently going to run hot inside the 2018 MBP chassis as the chassis and cooling system are currently designed. Apple's engineering failed here, plain and simple, and there's no fix for that except perhaps a complete redesign of the situation inside the chassis itself.
I'm betting that if you redid the craptastic thermal paste (why Apple keeps using that white gunk is beyond me when there are so much better alternatives they could be using and get huge discounts on it at quantity) with something like Arctic Silver 5 or whatever (there are too many brands to even get into at this point) it could make a dramatic difference in the performance temps when the machine is pushed to the max, and coupled with the improved fan curves which just have to be adjusted, this again would alleviate much of the issues we are currently seeing with these i9-based machines.
Someone asked earlier if the i9 used more energy than the i7 models and the answer is of course it does, it's got 50% more cores so yes, it's going to use more power even at idle. It doesn't mean 50% more power at idle overall, but the CPU itself would be just about 50% more power consuming than the i7 at the same clock-speed simply because it's 6 cores pulling power vs 4.
It's not that hard to understand this, folks.
The only software that can be optimized to help things with this situation and the i9-based 2018 MBPs in terms of the thermal issues that are so obviously turning up all over the place more and more by the moment is the firmware of the MBP itself with updated fan curves to allow the cooling system and the fans to kick into high(er) gear much faster than they are already doing so in the first release units.
There, that's it, in a nutshell.
To suggest that some software patch to Cinebench or Adobe Premiere or any other piece of application software is going to alleviate the thermal issues is beyond ludicrous, it really is. What, is Cinebench or Adobe Premiere going to enable some super-duper-top-secret cooling mechanism inside the i9 itself so it works better when pushed to 100% usage? Because if that's not possible then the only other way to comprehend this fiasco is that the fan curves as set now in the firmware/UEFI of the 2018 i9-based MBPs needs some fixin' and fast. Any application or program that pushes the i9 to max performance aka 100% CPU usage is going to make these thermal issues appear, whether it's 3D rendering with Cinebench, 4K+ video rendering with Adobe Premiere or Final Cut Pro, multiple instances of Prime95, multiple terminals running multiple instances of yes, whatever - 100% CPU usage is 100% CPU usage and that's that.
There is a high probability, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, that such an adjustment to the fan curves to enable them to respond faster and to higher RPMs will alleviate the issues being shown so clearly in so many videos but it's not really a fix - there can't be a fix in this situation since the i9 is apparently going to run hot inside the 2018 MBP chassis as the chassis and cooling system are currently designed. Apple's engineering failed here, plain and simple, and there's no fix for that except perhaps a complete redesign of the situation inside the chassis itself.
I'm betting that if you redid the craptastic thermal paste (why Apple keeps using that white gunk is beyond me when there are so much better alternatives they could be using and get huge discounts on it at quantity) with something like Arctic Silver 5 or whatever (there are too many brands to even get into at this point) it could make a dramatic difference in the performance temps when the machine is pushed to the max, and coupled with the improved fan curves which just have to be adjusted, this again would alleviate much of the issues we are currently seeing with these i9-based machines.
Someone asked earlier if the i9 used more energy than the i7 models and the answer is of course it does, it's got 50% more cores so yes, it's going to use more power even at idle. It doesn't mean 50% more power at idle overall, but the CPU itself would be just about 50% more power consuming than the i7 at the same clock-speed simply because it's 6 cores pulling power vs 4.
It's not that hard to understand this, folks.
Let's put this bluntly and hope people will comprehend this:
The only software that can be optimized to help things with this situation and the i9-based 2018 MBPs in terms of the thermal issues that are so obviously turning up all over the place more and more by the moment is the firmware of the MBP itself with updated fan curves to allow the cooling system and the fans to kick into high(er) gear much faster than they are already doing so in the first release units.
There, that's it, in a nutshell.
To suggest that some software patch to Cinebench or Adobe Premiere or any other piece of application software is going to alleviate the thermal issues is beyond ludicrous, it really is. What, is Cinebench or Adobe Premiere going to enable some super-duper-top-secret cooling mechanism inside the i9 itself so it works better when pushed to 100% usage? Because if that's not possible then the only other way to comprehend this fiasco is that the fan curves as set now in the firmware/UEFI of the 2018 i9-based MBPs needs some fixin' and fast. Any application or program that pushes the i9 to max performance aka 100% CPU usage is going to make these thermal issues appear, whether it's 3D rendering with Cinebench, 4K+ video rendering with Adobe Premiere or Final Cut Pro, multiple instances of Prime95, multiple terminals running multiple instances of yes, whatever - 100% CPU usage is 100% CPU usage and that's that.
There is a high probability, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, that such an adjustment to the fan curves to enable them to respond faster and to higher RPMs will alleviate the issues being shown so clearly in so many videos but it's not really a fix - there can't be a fix in this situation since the i9 is apparently going to run hot inside the 2018 MBP chassis as the chassis and cooling system are currently designed. Apple's engineering failed here, plain and simple, and there's no fix for that except perhaps a complete redesign of the situation inside the chassis itself.
I'm bettering that if you redid the craptastic thermal paste (why Apple keeps using that white gunk is beyond me when there are so much better alternatives they could be using and get huge discounts on it at quantity) with something like Arctic Silver 5 or whatever (there are too many brands to even get into at this point) it could make a dramatic difference in the performance temps when the machine is pushed to the max, and coupled with the improved fan curves which just have to be adjusted, this again would alleviate much of the issues we are currently seeing with these i9-based machines.
Someone asked earlier if the i9 used more energy than the i7 models and the answer is of course it does, it's got 50% more cores so yes, it's going to use more power even at idle. It doesn't mean 50% more power at idle overall, but the CPU itself would be just about 50% more power consuming than the i7 at the same clock-speed simply because it's 6 cores pulling power vs 4.
It's not that hard to understand this, folks.
You may want to read this
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...e-performance-with-a-few-clicks.317552.0.html
I just tried to limit the CPU to 45W with Volta and got about 10% improvement in cinebench. No throttling at all. Interestingly, this is lower than the i7 model tested in notebookcheck. I wonder if the improvement in performance between i9 and i7 is only because the i9 is allowed to use significantly more than 45W.
Without the limit:
With the 45W limit:
Notice how the temperature rises differently for the two settings.
Without the limit:
With the 45W limit:
Notice how the temperature rises differently for the two settings.
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I said this in the thread earlier and I'll repeat it again:
When you, the end user, purchase a device like a 2018 Apple MacBook Pro powered by an Intel i9 processor and you have to install or resort to using a third-party tool to ensure you're getting good/great performance from the hardware, that's a problem.
Can't make it any simpler than that. All that software is doing is artificially crippling performance to make it function in a more thermally effective manner, which means the end user paid for a level of performance they can't even get natively with the hardware itself but if they spend a few more bucks (a pittance compared to the cost of the hardware, I'll admit) and still don't get even with the third-party assist, that's a problem.
The new MBPs powered by the i9 appear - in many videos and reviews so far, this early on in their release - to show a massive issue with thermal efficiency and they do not appear to be performing at spec as intended because of those thermal issues. So the idea that "Oh, let me install this piece of software that will intentionally lower the performance I paid for and should be getting just so I can get at least most of the work done at a level I can deal with" is absurd on so many levels it's not even funny.
No-one, certainly not me, is denying that shipping an expensive laptop with a broken cooling strategy is unforgivably stupid. I don’t know if you read the article or not but it seems (it’s preliminary admittedly) that the issue is the way Apple have controlled throttling until now; differently to other OEMS and in a way that simply isn’t applicable to these chips in that thermal environment.
As notebookcheck noted Apple should be able to fix this in their software. Though as notebookcheck alos noted, Apple are not the best at climbing down from stupid mistakes.
In any case, I was just trying to spread some information to help people.
As am I, hence me referring constantly to this issue potentially being resolved if Apple updates the fan curve settings in the firmware. If that helps things, great, but it's just a stop-gap measure to get some of that performance back. There's no way even the fan curve adjustment is going to FIX this issue and that's because the i9 is just not a good match for Apple's non-updated MBP chassis and cooling system design. It's basically the same components from the 2017 MBP series and they didn't change hardly anything.
"4 cores, OK, we can cool that. 6 cores, well, how much hotter can it be, just use last year's HSF and cooling assembly, it'll be fine..." -- Apple engineer in charge of the 2018 MBP now wondering if he'll have his job next month
"4 cores, OK, we can cool that. 6 cores, well, how much hotter can it be, just use last year's HSF and cooling assembly, it'll be fine..." -- Apple engineer in charge of the 2018 MBP now wondering if he'll have his job next month
As am I, hence me referring constantly to this issue potentially being resolved if Apple updates the fan curve settings in the firmware. If that helps things, great, but it's just a stop-gap measure to get some of that performance back. There's no way even the fan curve adjustment is going to FIX this issue and that's because the i9 is just not a good match for Apple's non-updated MBP chassis and cooling system design. It's basically the same components from the 2017 MBP series and they didn't change hardly anything.
"4 cores, OK, we can cool that. 6 cores, well, how much hotter can it be, just use last year's HSF and cooling assembly, it'll be fine..." -- Apple engineer in charge of the 2018 MBP now wondering if he'll have his job next month
Please read the article. It’s not about fan curves at all. Even the first paragraph and/or the conclusion will tell you what you need to know.
You're just not getting it: the laptops aren't working as they are designed to work, and all these so-called stopgap measures are not fixes, and the end user/professional that paid $3000+ for a high end top of the line MacBook Pro with the latest Intel processor should not have to go through this BS to get the hardware to work as designed. This is a problem and it's not one that Apple can fix, period, meaning they can't fix the fact that people are kinda pissed about this and having to deal with it on several levels, least of all spending a few more bucks to use third-party software to get their machines to work anywhere near as well as they should have been working out of the box.
How many consumers, or professionals for that matter, are going to undervolt their $3000+ MacBook Pros so they're able to work with them? Seriously?
It’s clear you’re not willing to read and understand the posted information. That’s ok but there’s really no point in discussing it further.
Big improvement. Looks very promising indeed.
I emailed the developer of Volta, linked him to the article and to here. He has a very large (though hopefully short term if Apple pull the finger out and fix it in the OS as they should) opportunity to improve that software. The Windows utility they used has finer grained control and as such better results.
Once Apple updates the software they are going to instantly get in trouble for false advertising. That chip limited to 45 watts will not see anything above 3.5ghz when Apples site clearly states turbo boost up to 4.8
Have you downloaded the fan control software? macsfancontrol, I think it’s called?
If you couple a more aggressive fan response with what you’ve done so far, it might help even more.
There is no need for the 8750H to pull 90W. It's likely just Intel's increased the power limit to an unreasonable height in case someone wants to put this under water. Either way, the idea that this CPU needs 90W to run is ridiculous, and if anything the power limit isn't working properly. Again, software fix.
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This has nothing to do with physics. It's all Engineering.
Apple's thermal solution is good for it's size. Not as good as it could be, but the idea that this CPU (with the same TDP) is going to definitely perform much worse than an older CPU with less cores (with the same TDP) is ridiculous.
This is mostly a software or firmware issue.