Apple Pay Apple Pay in Germany

[SenileBooster]

To be on the Apple Pay support page as an offline business is pure marketing. The needed infrastructure to accept ApplePay (NFC + CC) is not the problem in Germany. Most contracts includes ApplePay without explicitly mentioning.

More of interest (at least for me) would be which online stores are going to implement ApplePay.

 

[Alanin]

Most online shop owners using some kind of payment providers. so you need a payment provider support Apple Pay and u need the developer of the shop software supporting Apple Pay. So maybe a lot of smaller shops are being able to support it and some larger shops are going to support it too. I do think that its a bit like the NFC terminals, the hardware is active, we just need the service...

 

[KarstenS]

More of interest (at least for me) would be which online stores are going to implement ApplePay.

eBay has announced to support Apple Pay. Starting in the USA and expanding step by step to other countries.

 

[TimFL1]

Where is that MacRumors poster who leaked stuff like the Apple Pay engine for germany being v2.5 (instead of v1.5 in the US) due to adding giropay support etc? Stopped posting together with the beta leaker after the big leak ban hammer from Apple.

 

[docfred]

Ok. And what is your message or your interpretation?

 

[4254126]

Where is that MacRumors poster who leaked stuff like the Apple Pay engine for germany being v2.5 (instead of v1.5 in the US) due to adding giropay support etc? Stopped posting together with the beta leaker after the big leak ban hammer from Apple.

He stopped posting after his prediction it would come in February and "listen out" for the Earnings call on February 1 all turned out to be false. He then disappeared and haven't heard from him since... You make you deductions ;-)

 

[jokant]

https://mobile.twitter.com/jochensiegert/status/1025267494519488512

 

[Karma_isA_8itch]

https://mobile.twitter.com/jochensiegert/status/1025267494519488512

Funny about this is from FDP some woman in said the same thing and they want europe now to force apple to open the nfc chip and I wouldnt be too surprised if they are really going to do this. Just look at the huge fine they spoke out to google a couple of weeks back. But this tweet just shows whats going wrong in our country and europe in general.

 

[docfred]

Opposite. What's going wrong is, that companies like Apple just pay 0,005% taxes, that companies like google don't care about European data protection laws and that platform operators like Apple are allowed to operate services on their closed platform while they are blocking competing services

that's indeed a problem and might be a big problem for customers in the future. freedom of choice would be the best way. and if Apple Pay is the most popular service, they should not have any doubts about competition.
but at the moment they are forcing banks to use their service exclusively by pressure. without competition on their platform.

that's the objective point of view on Apples business with Apple Pay. but that does not mean, that Apple Pay is not the best payment service at the moment. but banks around the world have a valid point when they say, Apple Pay is some sort of extortion.

 

[dschulian]

The way Sparkasse is acting made me so angry that I will close my over 30 year old account in favor of one of the fintech companies. Maybe it will be a Berlin based.

 

[Karma_isA_8itch]

We are pretending to be living in a democratic and free world but if you tell Apple "you need to open your NFC chip to everyone" how free are we? This sounds more like communism too me where everything belongs to everyone. If I have a good product is it my fault that my product is better than the one of my competitors? No its not. They should work harder if they want to have a product as good as mine. Apple invested loads of money to create a product where software and hardware works perfectly together and they say that we cannot open the nfc because security would be compromised. No one is forcing the banks to use Apple Pay. They are free to decide if they want to use it or not. If not they need to live with the consequences.

Now lets turn this around... Sparkasse has loads of ATM machines in Germany but only their customers are allowed to withdraw money from them for free. If I (not a Sparkasse customer) want to get money from one of their ATMs I need to pay as of right not 5 € per withdrawal. Do I complain about this? Where are our politicians complaining about that? Sparkasse is using their power as well but nobody is complaining. They want Apple to give them NFC access for free. But they are not allowing the people to use their services for free are they? If Sparkasse would like to pay some money to Apple Pay for being able to use Apple Pay then all would be good right? If I pay 5 € I am allowed to withdraw money from a Sparkasse ATM. Oh wait, right... if Sparkasse pays a little fee to Apple they are allowed to use iPhones NFCs via Apple Pay.
[doublepost=1533312643][/doublepost]BTW here are the results from the poll. Thanks for participating.

 

[docfred]

This sounds more like communism

oh come one... is it 1956? that's bullsh*t, so no answer at all.

Sparkasse has loads of ATM machines in Germany but only their customers are allowed to withdraw money from them for free. If I (not a Sparkasse customer) want to get money from one of their ATMs I need to pay as of right not 5 € per withdrawal

but you can withdrawn money. and with my DKB Visa I withdraw money for free.

if it was an Apple ATM, you won't get any money at all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that's the point

if Sparkasse pays a little fee to Apple they are allowed to use iPhones NFCs via Apple Pay.

nope, they are allowed to let their customers use Apple Pay. Not NFC.

That would be an interesting contract... if you are willing to let your customers use Apple Pay, you get access to the NFC API. Now the customer would decide what he wants to use.

That would be real freedom of choice and a win-win-win for everyone. Customer, Apple, Banks.

 

[Karma_isA_8itch]

oh come one... is it 1956? that's bullsh*t, so no answer at all.

Well if you look at the state of the world right now it feels more like 1933 ... And I stay by what I just said: Taking away the control from a company and putting it into the hands of politicians has nothing to do with a free and open democratic world.

but you can withdrawn money. and with my DKB Visa I withdraw money for free.

And Sparkasse can use Apple Pay and therefore they can let iOS users use the NFC chip to make payments with their Sparkasse cards. They cant expect them to get everything for free just because they have the big red S.

About your DKB... it does not matter if its free for you it should be free for everyone then. You cannot on one hand say I want that access to the nfc chip because Apple is missusing its power and on the other hand do the exact same thing. Its not just about the ATMs ... like this twitter guy said why is the Sparkasse app only for sparkasse customers? Why cant I add my cards to their app and use it to pay? Shouldnt we all be allowed to use that technology?

Apple Pay is a product of Apple. Everyone can use it if you want too. The people can decide if they want it or not. Just switch your bank and you are good to go. No need for Sparkasse to join Apple Pay. There you have your freedom of choice. Its up to the people to make that decision because Sparkasse already made theirs but not joining Apple Pay.

if it was an Apple ATM, you won't get any money at all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that's the point

Yep you are right but Sparkasse is doing the same thing by charging me 5 bucks per withdrawal. At the end of the day I am not able to get money from them because who is going to pay 5 freekin bucks to get money from them?

To bring it on a point: Sparkasse asking Apple to open NFC is as dumb as Apple saying all banks need to join Apple Pay. They could say the same ... Sparkasse shouldnt be allowed to lock us out from 30 - 40 mio. customers just because they are greedy. Isnt that exactly the same?

 

[docfred]

Taking away the control from a company and putting it into the hands of politicians has nothing to do with a free and open democratic world.

preventing single companies to get a monopoly (does not matter how big the market is) is a basic function of a free and open democratic world.

you know... like the lawsuits against microsoft in the 90s. or the regulation of companies like France Telecom, the old At&t, Deutsche Telekom and so on.

Its not just about the ATMs ... like this twitter guy said why is the Sparkasse app only for sparkasse customers? Why cant I add my cards to their app and use it to pay? Shouldnt we all be allowed to use that technology?

Every bank is allowed and able to code an app for their own and serve their customers the same service.

but nobody except apple is allowed to use NFC on iOS. that's a difference

They could say the same ... Sparkasse shouldnt be allowed to lock us out from 30 - 40 mio. customers just because they are greedy.

Not wanting to pay for a service you did not order is "greedy? Hm. Ok. Interesting point of view

No need for Sparkasse to join Apple Pay.

that's right. why are you then complaining? it is just interesting, you are ranting again about just one single bank. not any of the other two dozends that do not want to support Apple Pay or the few hundred around the globe. tief sitzender stachel? private beef? don't understand it.

if you don't like them, close your account. if you don't have an account, why are you discussing anyway?
[doublepost=1533315876][/doublepost]Just to get it clear:
I don’t say, it is good what they are doing and saying at the moment.
They will lose this fight with Apple and suffer from image damage.

But from an objective point of view, their argument is valid. And they are not the first, not the last and not the only one.

That‘s all.

 

[jokant]

From a law perspective I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Apple isn’t monopolistic. Their market share is not that high.

Apple Pay is available in UK (which is still a part of the EU) since July 2015. Many other countries have Apple Pay today. Nothing ever happened. Now it comes to Germany and all of a sudden the EU has to force Apple? It doesn’t make sense. In comparison to other countries iOS in Germany has actually quite a small market share. The case of Google is totally different.


Some banks talk about access for everybody and fair competition. What they actually want is using Hardware and Software for free. How much does Sparkasse pay Google and the device manufacturers (e.g. Samsung, Huawei etc.) for their own mobile payment solution? Nothing.

NFC won’t be the only thing. Next there will be CDCVM. They will demand access to Touch ID and Face ID. They cost years and billions in research and development. They want it for free.


Look at Payback Pay, Blue Code, Twint and the Chinese giants Alipay and WeChat Pay. They all work on iPhones. They don’t need access to NFC. Thus some banks only want to copy Apple Pay and use it for free.


Long before Apple Pay was introduced in 2014 many people called mobile payment the next big thing. All the banks that are against Apple Pay had the chance to developed something. They didn’t. They waited. It's like PayPal all over again.

 

[docfred]

just a few comments to some ... nice ... parts:

Some banks talk about access for everybody and fair competition. What they actually want is using Hardware and Software for free. How much does Sparkasse pay Google and the device manufacturers (e.g. Samsung, Huawei etc.) for their own mobile payment solution? Nothing.

Yeah, because the customer already paid for the hardware and Apple, Google or Samsung are selling their hardware with the argument "buy our phone, we have all the apps!"

NFC won’t be the only thing. Next there will be CDCVM. They will demand access to Touch ID and Face ID. They cost years and billions in research and development. They want it for free.

Nice example. Every App has already access to verification via TouchID and FaceID. For free

Thus some banks only want to copy Apple Pay and use it for free.

There were NFC based payment solutions years before Apple Pay. Who has copied who?



As I said, the banks that are fighting won't win. Neither in the USA nor Australia nor Switzerland nor Germany. They just delay the necessary decision and will suffer from image loss. That's a fact.

Which does not mean, that Apple is right in a competitive or ethical way.

 

[zdfbe4ah]

Apple produces the hardware and the software of the iPhone. It is their right to offer none or any of their product features via a public API. They decided to open the camera or to integrate touch id, you can use these. They decided to lock NFC and Siri for everybody, you can't use them. It's their fair right to do so.
It would be problematic if Apple says "here Deutsche Bank use NFC, and no Sparkasse you are not allowed to use it" – but that is not the case. Every bank has the same rights on Apple's platform. Apple is not really a competitor to the banks – they are a service provider – they provide the service of mobile payments for banks to use, if they want to.
I don't see any reason why Apple's behaviour is wrong in a competitive or ethical way.

Also Apple could decide, that the Sparkassen-App is against their App Store policy and kick it out — it would be their fair right to do so (from a legal stand point) – that however I think would be unethical and problematic.

 

[docfred]

Sure they could. Nobody said anything else.
They also could kick Ing-Diba or every single Swiss bank, who don‘t obey.


My guess: In 2019 many banks will join afterwards. And Most of the FI that don’t join at launch do so because, they want to see, what DSGV is getting to work. They are hiding and waiting. And because neither DSGV nor the BVR will get some consessions, they get on board too.

If Apple Pay will have noticable impact on the market what has to be seen.

 

[Karma_isA_8itch]

https://www.itopnews.de/2018/08/app...elle-liste-42-banken-aeussern-sich-update-27/

 

[docfred]

As I said... different statements. Seems like the DSGV is still not sure, what to do. Which would explain, that they needed two days to post their first comment.

 

[SenileBooster]

I wouldn’t put to much weight in this list and it’s updates and „statements“. There are obviously false claims/interpretation of words from some banks.
I.e. Fidor is marked as later this year but official Fidor wording was the same exact sentence as the first movers like N26 or Deutsche Bank used to use. Fidor will be supporting AP from launch.

Those two sound very fishy to me:

Sparkasse Wilhelmshaven: macht mit. „Das System ist für ApplePay vorbereitet, wir warten jedoch noch auf die Freigabe durch Apple“. (danke Keno)

VR Bank Lichtenfels Ebern: „In naher Zukunft wollen aber auch wir die digitale Bankkarte einführen. Diese kann man über unsere VR-Banking App, sowie bei Apple Pay hinterlegen.“ (danke Pascal B.)

Any Sparkasse is a no mover in my book.
And the statement from that VR would induce GiroCard support. Not going to happen. The GiroCard is technical not ready for AP.
So one could argue vor the vPay coBadge but meh. This is quite a stretch. I try to get some inside on that statement over at Twitter.

 

[JoshuaLuckers]

https://www.itopnews.de/2018/08/app...elle-liste-42-banken-aeussern-sich-update-27/

bunq should also be on that list right?

 

[SenileBooster]

Bunq should be a safe bet.
However they did not use the Apple composed Tweet as of yet but they stated to aim for it.

 

[4254126]

bunq should also be on that list right?

Most of those lists out on the internet contain incorrect information or make incorrect judgements.

Check the first post of this thread here: You'll find links and can make you're own judgement.
[doublepost=1533398216][/doublepost]

Bunq should be a safe bet.
However they did not use the Apple composed Tweet as of yet but they stated to aim for it.

They have used it. Check their Twitter page and post on together.bunq.com. It's the exact same text as all the other banks - just the original in English ;-)

 

[SenileBooster]

Tyvm. I just missed it then.