Apple Pay Apple Pay in Germany

[aplh23]

Sparkasse Wilhelmshaven: macht mit. „Das System ist für ApplePay vorbereitet, wir warten jedoch noch auf die Freigabe durch Apple“. (danke Keno)

That probably means they are waiting for apple to open nfc - that wont happen, so the Statement about Sparkasse Wilhelmshaven support apple pay is ********

 

[oneill983]

Sparkasse Wilhelmshaven: macht mit. „Das System ist für ApplePay vorbereitet, wir warten jedoch noch auf die Freigabe durch Apple“. (danke Keno)

That probably means they are waiting for apple to open nfc - that wont happen, so the Statement about Sparkasse Wilhelmshaven support apple pay is ********

Yup. I think that's exactly what's happening. They're trying to change the narrative to make Apple look like the bad guy because they won't give them access to NFC.

 

[4254126]

I hope - for Wirecard's sake - they find an easy solution to migrate all those German users to a German account and card easily. Otherwise I can't imagine many being prepared to go through deleting their current accounts and then signing up again and going through the entire ident process...

Also regarding Sparkasse: It's been stated before and nothing will change anytime soon -> They're not part of Apple Pay and are pushing for their own solution. They seem to be the "Barclays" of the German Apple Pay launch... Look where that got them

There are plenty of other banks to choose from and I'm sure more will join by the time Apple Pay launches. Until then, sign up for a boon. / N26 / Fidor account (Fidor doesn't run a credit check, neither does boon.) and you'll be able to use it for the time being!

 

[Focalor]

Interesting will imo be, which Bank will support Girocard for Apple Pay. Because -it is how it is- this would be THE way to use Apple Pay in Germany. Apple already does this in France with their pendance "Cartes Banquaires" and Denmark too I think. So at least for me, I'm not too quick to change my bank.

 

[4254126]

Interesting will imo be, which Bank will support Girocard for Apple Pay. Because -it is how it is- this would be THE way to use Apple Pay in Germany. Apple already does this in France with their pendance "Cartes Banquaires" and Denmark too I think. So at least for me, I'm not too quick to change my bank.

I don't really think so.

Yes, I always have two Girocards with me (just in case) and the only places I need it are POS where contactless isn't accepted anyway. That could be anything from ticket machines for parking (town where I work take coins or "EC-Karte" only). That could also be the council / town hall (they only take Girocard via ELV). But anywhere where contactless is accepted, 99% of the time (only Subway comes into mind) have I had a problem with a MasterCard/VISA card (doesn't matter if Credit or Debit). And from the 2020s onwards you won't see Girocard contactless only terminals, as they must accept all schemes. Also: Contactless acceptance for VISA/MC is at around 80% if I remember my figures correctly. Girocard kontaktlos is way under that figure. The only reason why everyone likes to use it, is because VISA/MasterCard in Germany usually have "Credit" attached to it. If you look to other countries ie. the UK you'll see, that most people have a VISA card, but it will be a debit card. Even mainstream banks are starting to realise that this is a good option, as it combines the wide acceptance with a debit function and online payments (one example: https://www.commerzbank.de/portal/d...karten/mastercard-debit/mastercard_debit.html).

I would also much rather not have a Girocard, but it is (currently) still a must have in Germany. But it's relevance will decline. Not dramatically, but as people don't need to depend on it anymore I'm sure they'll use other card types increasingly as well.

And the reasons stated above are why I use Apple Pay most of the time. And honestly - this is coming from someone who thinks that in many regards Germany is very backward and slow to adopt new technology and increase efficiency - contactless is so much better in Germany. Never have I entered my PIN or had any problems. Every time I'm back in the UK I get annoyed by the £30 cap that many terminals have on contactless, which means I need to have my physical cards on me when I do my weekly shop. Very annoying! But thankfully it's slowly changing...

 

[docfred]

And from the 2020s onwards you won't see Girocard contactless only terminals, as they must accept all schemes.

What do you mean?

 

[SenileBooster]

GiroCard is technically not ready for ApplePay. Period. We won’t (and that’s a very good one in my book) see native support for it.
What may be happen is support for the co-badge Maestro, as in Italy and Spain f.i., but as I said earlier this will be quite a stretch.

And btw you can not compare the GiroCard with other national Debit systems like CB in France or the one from Canada.
Bluntly said the GiroCard is just a way to hand your bank account data over to a merchant to make a direct debit possible. Nothing more and nothing left. The whole way the GiroCard clearing works is the problem for ApplePay. And this is not what Apple wants a Bank Card to be able of if implemented in ApplePay. Sure their is the whole fee problematic but first comes the technical side of it.
Look at Mobiles Bezahlen by Sparkasse. No CDCVM although their are enough Android smartphones capable of it. Reason for that...Girocard System isn’t!
DK stated that they will look at it in the future. Duh!
The GiroCard needs a complete overhaul but I don’t see this happen. To much costs, to much competition and far to less will to change things by the DK.

 

[docfred]

Bluntly said the GiroCard is just a way to hand your bank account data over to a merchant to make a direct debit possible.

Are you sure, you don’t mix up ELV by the German merchants with GiroCard?

 

[Tobsen]

I hope - for Wirecard's sake - they find an easy solution to migrate all those German users to a German account and card easily. Otherwise I can't imagine many being prepared to go through deleting their current accounts and then signing up again and going through the entire ident process...

There was on German Mac news site, they stated, that Wirecard told them, that no one has to create a new account or to re-register.

 

[BSben]

GiroCard is technically not ready for ApplePay. Period. We won’t (and that’s a very good one in my book) see native support for it.
What may be happen is support for the co-badge Maestro, as in Italy and Spain f.i., but as I said earlier this will be quite a stretch.

And btw you can not compare the GiroCard with other national Debit systems like CB in France or the one from Canada.
Bluntly said the GiroCard is just a way to hand your bank account data over to a merchant to make a direct debit possible. Nothing more and nothing left. The whole way the GiroCard clearing works is the problem for ApplePay. And this is not what Apple wants a Bank Card to be able of if implemented in ApplePay. Sure their is the whole fee problematic but first comes the technical side of it.
Look at Mobiles Bezahlen by Sparkasse. No CDCVM although their are enough Android smartphones capable of it. Reason for that...Girocard System isn’t!
DK stated that they will look at it in the future. Duh!
The GiroCard needs a complete overhaul but I don’t see this happen. To much costs, to much competition and far to less will to change things by the DK.

Could you please explain what makes GiroCard so different from other Debit cards? I am really curious why it shouldn't work if the bank would allow it.

 

[Mr-Fly]

There was on German Mac news site, they stated, that Wirecard told them, that no one has to create a new account or to re-register.

I wonder if we will get a new Credit Card number which will be German instead of Irish. When you check you credit card number on specific sites they will show that it is Irish. And some people stated that they had problems in some shops using a foreign card (mostly online stores)

 

[SenileBooster]

Are you sure, you don’t mix up ELV by the German merchants with GiroCard?

I already did explained that way back in the thread.
It is a question of the last step in the clearance process. This last step is still a kind of direct debit. That’s just how it works. The ELV you question about is only one kind of possible ways to authorize this final steps „inside“ the banks infrastructure. This ELV Methode only cuts corners to avoid fees but in doing so losts the guaranteed clearance of the payment by the card issuing bank. It does not play any role if it is a ELV, online PIN or offline PIN transaction at the POS. In the end it is a direct debit (Lastschrift) from your bank to the merchant/acquirer.

That’s the reason every time you use your Girocard your whole bank account data is transmitted to the merchant. Think about the security question one could raise here. You can check this here
https://www.ec-cash-direkt.de/service/bei-fehlerhafter-kartenakzeptanz.html
[doublepost=1533462932][/doublepost]

I wonder if we will get a new Credit Card number which will be German instead of Irish. When you check you credit card number on specific sites they will show that it is Irish. And some people stated that they had problems in some shops using a foreign card (mostly online stores)

I called boon. for that very reason yesterday.
They told me one has to close ones account and open a new one.
Same happened to me when I was changing from France to Ireland. First I had to close the french one to have a irish one opened.
[doublepost=1533463354][/doublepost]

Could you please explain what makes GiroCard so different from other Debit cards? I am really curious why it shouldn't work if the bank would allow it.

Just check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_Bleue
CB is much more like debit Credit Cards then GiroCard. Especially it is e-commerce enabled. One could say CB is more modern.
GiroCard is just a Bankomart Card in the simplest possible way.


However pls keep in mind all the above is just knowledge by an interested bystander. I’m in no way an expert in this in any way.
[doublepost=1533464530][/doublepost]And as a note to all the „Apple has to open NFC for fair market competition reasons“ I want to quote this

https://twitter.com/jochensiegert/status/1025267494519488512?s=21

besides all other things as security and so on, just think about the above. Just saying.

 

[docfred]

in this case:
I really laughed as I read it two days ago. But in the end: Nicht alles was hinkt ist ein Vergleich

Neither the app of Deutsche Bank, Postbank, Sparkasse nor Volksbank has exclusive access to something or is preventing another app from offering similar services. That's the difference. The tweet is funny but blah.

And I think Jochen knows this.

 

[SenileBooster]

in this case:
I really laughed as I read it two days ago. But in the end: Nicht alles was hinkt ist ein Vergleich

Neither the app of Deutsche Bank, Postbank, Sparkasse nor Volksbank has exclusive access to something or is preventing another app from offering similar services. That's the difference. The tweet is funny but blah.

And I think Jochen knows this.

But try to add a card not from the offering bank, no go, never will. And that’s what this is about.

And there’s nothing exclusive about NFC on iPhone. Exclusive would mean there is at least one participant other then Apple who owns the system. To this other one it would be exclusive. But that is not how it works. ApplePay as service is open for every bank or card issuer. Sure your have to have a contract, but that’s how business is done. On the other side you can’t make a contract to add your card to Mobiles Bezahlen. It is a closed system exclusive to Sparkasse.
So you can have that argument both ways.


BTW I don’t want to argue whether Apple should „open“ full NFC rights to 3rd parties or not.

 

[docfred]

But try to add a card not from the offering bank, no go, never will. And that’s what this is about.

Yeah, but it's irrelevant, because the other bank can build an app of their own and coexist beside the apps from Deutsche Bank, Postbank, VBR, Sparkasse, boon, ... and use system, APIs etc. for themselves

But no app beside Apple Wallet has access to the relevant APIs for creating an own payment app to be useful in everyday life without having merchants to invest in other hardware like QR-Reader or something stupid like that. "Accept our terms or your customers on iOS schauen mit dem Ofenrohr ins Gebirge" - do or die.

So there's a little difference in the two cases

Just to make it clear: every bank will lose the fight for opening NFC. But it would be the best way for competition. Even Apple needs competition and I think, at this moment, Apple Pay would blow any competing service out of the water. But

Nice commitment would be: "you get access to our NFC API if you are willing your customers to use Apple Pay, if they want". Would also be a nice benchmark for all the banking apps, if they are doing well in their development

 

[SenileBooster]

look how this coexistence on Android works for the VR Payment app for instance. You have to set this one as standard to use it at all. If you don’t you can’t use it. Duh! And that’s exactly what they would try to pull on iOS. And if Apple says no they would call foul again and so on and so forth.

 

[docfred]

That Apple is not willing to let the user select a standard app for several services is a problem of its own... true.

Something between Android and iOS would be great. No uncontrolled growth and rubbish like Android but a little bit more flexible than iOS today.

 

[SenileBooster]

You did not get my point.
VR Banking App FORCES its users to set it as standard on Android otherwise they would not be able to use it at all.
Yeah but keep arguing with competition and free choices.

 

[docfred]

Sorry, but this is no point because you can regulate this by rules and terms. And Apple is very restrictive about their App Store terms. It would be an easily solvable challenge.

 

[SenileBooster]

And Apple ruled out to allow 3rd party write access to the iPhone NFC.

I rest my case.

 

[docfred]

Jupp, and this is not good for competition on the iPhone. But so it is. Banks have to deal with it. Which does not mean, there would be better ways.

 

[Alanin]

If Sparkassen want to have full control bout the NFC chip they should build their own mobiles.

When thinking bout the tools you use for paying you have to compare the iPhone and the card issued by Sparkasse. No one is allowed to write on the others tool. But Apple opened up a way to use its tool. Each other bank has to issue its own cards.

Even I am not allowed to use my VISA card on the Sparkasse terminals to get cash. Even my bank is willing to pay for my usage. Sparkasse is just saying no and is not willing to make contracts with my bank.

It’s the same problem...

 

[docfred]

Aha. Your VISA card is being rejected by ATMs?

 

[Alanin]

Ah wait I know a way they have to make my card to work with their terminal. I have to sue every single local Sparkasse which is not accepting my card.
[doublepost=1533475860][/doublepost]Yeah, there are a lot of local Sparkasse who reject cars by direct banks... like ing-diba, Comdirect, Volkswagen Bank, Santander.
[doublepost=1533475943][/doublepost]And if u sue them, they change their settings so then it’s working. But u cannot sue just one company, you have to do for every local one.

That’s the reason some local Sparkasse are accepting those cards. And some don’t.
[doublepost=1533476051][/doublepost]https://www.google.de/amp/m.faz.net...den-am-geldautomat-probleme-13032880.amp.html
[doublepost=1533476176][/doublepost]But its not just my Visa card. It’s all Visa cards by several banks here at my local sparkasse

 

[4254126]

Yeah, there are a lot of local Sparkasse who reject cars by direct banks... like ing-diba, Comdirect, Volkswagen Bank, Santander.

This thread is getting massively off-topic.

#mytwocents: My Sparkasse charges 5€ when withdrawing cash (which I never do anyway) with my SPARKASSE MasterCard. It's a joke. My DKB VISA is free. Try explaining that to someone...