Funny today. Paid at DM with Apple Pay on Watch, cashier asked a lot of questions, how it works and that she already realized me paying with it (the only one in this DM), but what amazed her most was, that the payment works without PIN. She asked right away, with every amount? Wow that is great, I hate the Pins. I explained her the security behind it (taking of the watch locks it etc.) and she was amazed. I think a lot of people would like it because you need no Pin. Too bad that Sparkasse decided to not let people use it without pin when paying more than 25€. This might be something that gives too less advantage of their mobile payment vs. wireless with card.....
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Apple Pay Apple Pay in Germany
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You can give me an example? In every shop I had to pay in cash as soon as the internet connection was interrupted.
Also as far I know, only magnetic stripe has the ability to offer offline payment. Chip and contactless are always online.
But we go to far away. The initial part was: boon (FR) with Apple Pay is identifying just as Mastercard, not as debit Mastercard for me. Even the Android App "Scheckkartenleser", which can read the NFC data, don't identify it as a debit card.
But hey. I don't even understand for what there is a debit Mastercard at all, as Mastercard already have a debit system since years: Maestro.
How GiroCard payments are designed to work and how this is implemented at the POS are two things.
GiroCard is designed to work 1st offline with authenification via PIN, if the card is not eligible or has no offline limit given by the issuing bank than the terminal will go online and check if the account balance is right.
However most terminals are not configured that way. They simply skip the offline possibilities and proceed directly to online. I guess it is for „fraud“ reasons. So GiroCard is able of offline payments but the merchants/aquirer don’t use it. BTW ELV is always offline. Your card is only checked against a (merchant owned) database if your card is trustworthy enough for ELV because there is absolutely zero guarantee for the merchant to get his money if he uses ELV.
For the boon. MasterCard. This one is technical a prepaid MasterCard. Boon. chipped it as Debit for acceptance I guess or other technical reasons.
And there are Debit MasterCard / Visa for acceptance as well. There are much more acceptance for Visa and MasterCard then for Maestro and vPay.
So banks can issue Credit Cards well accepted all over the world without the risk of a real credit line.
And Debit Cards are cheaper for the merchants as well.
And don’t forget about unified payment. MasterCard/Visa are for eCommerce too but not so much Maestro cards are. vPay not at all, there you need a Visa electron.
MasterCard (or now mastercardTM) is just a payment network. Just like Visa. The only thing is this confuses many (esp. here in Germany), as they connect MasterCard and Visa with credit cards. I can only speak from experience that ie. in the UK most will only have regular MC / Visa debit cards and only few are interested in credit cards. Both networks also support pre-authorisation, online payment, chargeback and other things. Girocard is it's own network pushed by the DK (Deutsche Kreditwirtschaft). No online payment (ie. booking a ticket on the internet) possible here and it primarily is an offline system. That's part of the reason why card payments take a day or two at least to process. On a side note: ING DiBa has recently switched this around. Paying with your Girocard will prefer the online route (if possible) and show up in the online banking and via a push notification immediately. But Girocard wasn't really made for this.
Back to MC/VISA: Apart from credit cards (revolving, etc.) their networks also offer debit cards (comparable to Girocard, but with more freedoms than prepaid) and prepaid (card needs to be charged and only support online authorisation).
boon. and Revolut are prepaid cards and usually only work with online authorisation, while bunq / N26 (or Monzo here in the UK) are debit cards. Specialities here are, that the card can support offline Chip + PIN and has an offline "limit", or not. bunq is the only card I am aware of, that is debit but doesn't work offline (due to them not allowing you to go overdrawn). In the UK most cards issued are VISA debit. Both my Nationwide and HSBC accounts come with a VISA debit card and offline Chip + PIN. That's why buying something onboard a BA flight was possible with those cards (and in Apple Pay), but not with boon.
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That might also be, but it doesn't support offline payments. Thus it won't work anywhere, where an online connection isn't possible (DB Bordrestaurant / onboard a flight etc.).
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I didn't wrote Girocard. I did write Maestro. Maestro is a Debit Card system by Mastercard, which exists since 1992. The question was: Why they have 2 Debit card systems? "Maestro" and "Mastercard Debit". (Same for VISA with "VISA Debit" and "VPay" btw.)
For all those who use boon., you might be interested in this article about Wirecard (the company behind boon.): https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtsch...st-wertvoller-als-die-deutsche-bank-1.4092651
Short note: It is now the highest valued bank / financial services provider in Germany and has now today overtaken Deutsche Bank.
Short note: It is now the highest valued bank / financial services provider in Germany and has now today overtaken Deutsche Bank.
Yeah, I have heared about it earlier this week, stating that Wirecard maybe kicks the deutsche Bank out of the dax...
You got that wrong. Wirecard will most likely replace Commerzbank in the DAX by Septmber 2018.
The final decision is made on September 5th by Deutsche Börse.
Was really considering to buy some Wirecard stocks about 6 months before when I did some more internet research about the company behind boon.
Well... I didn´t do it, damn
But really nice and of course a huge thanks to Wirecard for "launching" Apple Pay in complete Europe
Well... I didn´t do it, damn
But really nice and of course a huge thanks to Wirecard for "launching" Apple Pay in complete Europe
Sorry, I'm going to repeat myself for a third or fourth time. But when Apple Pay Cash comes to Europe, I'm more than certain that Wirecard will be the processor behind the scenes. I don't know why, but I have this feeling they might announce AP Cash for a few Euro-Countries (possibly also the UK) during the September Keynote. They always recap the highlights of the newest iOS release and Craig gets to say a few things. It's just a guess, but this year a lot seems to have lined right up into place. Not to forget contactless loyalty and entry passes coming with iOS 12. Very excited to see what happens on that side of things.
Side note: Green Dot Bank provide the backend for AP Cash in the USA.
Side note: Green Dot Bank provide the backend for AP Cash in the USA.
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Your statement about the limit in the UK is perhaps not really accurate. Most of the major supermarkets in the UK allow unlimited payments (Sainsbury's, Marks and Spencer, Coop, Waitrose, Aldi, Lidl) many restaurants allow higher payments, as do many other shops. Also Germany has a contactless limit too, and the shops supporting cards and contactless are way fewer.
You seem to go to different shops than I do
Tesco, M&S Foodhall (at least in my town) and Asda all still have a £30 limit. The Works and Waterstones also spring to mind. I'm quite sure the self-checkout till at Sainsbury's recently rejected my Apple Pay payment (total sum was about £35). And: This limit applies to both a contactless card and Apple Pay, which is just damn stupid. Apple Pay supports CDCVM which lets you authenticate through Touch or Face ID. There is just no logical reason to restrict Apple Pay in this way. That's why when doing my weekly shop I will need to get my card or cash out to pay, although technically Apple Pay could support paying for the full amount. It is changing, but you can't count on most retailers in the UK having switched off the £30 limit. I travel frequently between the UK and Germany and, although the UK has higher overall acceptance of contactless cards, I find Germany to be more reliable. If the terminal supports contactless payments, then Apple Pay will work (and without any limits)!In Germany there is also a contactless limit (without entering your PIN number) of 25€ with Girocard (German debit card system) or 50€ with a MC/VISA credit card. But that just applies to physical cards. I have never had a single problem paying large amounts in DE with Apple Pay and not a single payment has ever been refused!
@SenileBooster - Good work!
https://twitter.com/frmueg/status/1030010605552455681
Time to place the VR Banks into a careful "taking part" category?
https://twitter.com/frmueg/status/1030010605552455681
Time to place the VR Banks into a careful "taking part" category?
I guess if VR Banken participate in Apple Pay, Sparkasse HAS to take part as well. Otherwise it would be quite embarrassing for them..
That would be a interesting story to listen to when Sparkasse tries to explain why the want to join ApplePay. I think at least for the near future Sparkasse is way to much committed to take not part and to blaim Apple for that.
But sure in the end the have to and they will go by Apples rules.
Did he make the VR Banks angry by posting it on twitter.
The Site no longer exists. Maybe someone could contact him?
We shall see
I was by the way also surprised that he as an official DZ Bank (central bank of VR Banken) employee is allowed to say that.
But mabe you all remember the official DZ Bank post some weeks ago saying they are, together with Bundesverband VR Banken, in negotiations with Apple. This post was shortly deleted afterwards as well. So I guess this is a good sign?
Seems so...We shall see
I was by the way also surprised that he as an official DZ Bank (central bank of VR Banken) employee is allowed to say that.
But mabe you all remember the official DZ Bank post some weeks ago saying they are, together with Bundesverband VR Banken, in negotiations with Apple. This post was shortly deleted afterwards as well. So I guess this is a good sign?
I don't want to open a can of worms here, but I wonder if sunny was right to some degree (either having inside knowledge or not isn't that relevant right now), that Apple has dropped the percentage cut of each transaction and switched to the model of a one-off payment per activated card. I did read somewhere (and for the life of me I can't find it anymore!) on some background info on how Apple Pay deals "may" be done in the background. A bank advisor stated, that as the percentage per CC transaction is to be dropped in other countries around the globe, Apple would have to choose a different payment model. One in discussion was a sort of subscription fee per activated card. Say someone activates their card in Apple Pay, then the bank would pay a small fee to Apple, but keep all income from the transactions. If the user removed the card, then Apple wouldn't get anything - of course. Seems like a good model and I can just imagine this is more appealing to banks, as they can assume that people who add their cards also use Apple Pay and thus also generate plenty of transactions. Apple has an incentive to push adding cards and through that, banks have the tools (and an interest) to push people to use their Apple Pay as often as possible.
Honestly, looking at the growing list of banks I'm still utterly gobsmacked at what this launch in Germany is turning out to be. This Volksbank guy adds to it by pointing out, that they were discussing if credit and debit cards (Girocard or only co-badge Maestro/VPay?) launch together or if debit cards (would have to?) launch later?
If those are the main details the big banks are talking about, then I think holdouts like Sparkasse or ING won't last. See the direct banks: Comdirect due to launch, DKB seems to be following behind the scenes (according to Rudolf Linsenbarth) and ING won't be able to sit this one out and thus will join within a couple of months. All still very exciting
Meanwhile, today I was complemented at the petrol station for paying with my watch. The cashier (quite an old guy) shouted out "COOL! DAS habe ich kürzlich schonmal gesehen, erstaunlich was die Dinger alles können! Muss ich mir auch mal zu Weihnachten wünschen von meiner Frau!". I hardly ever have negative experiences in Germany with Apple Pay these days... Most people seem to either a) not care b) think it's interesting and watch closely or - this happens more often now c) start a conversation about it, which I sort of find weird and I hate holding people up behind me, just because the person working at the till needs their dose of chatter.
I‘m not. We discussed it for months. Apple could have a small start years ago, so it would have made no sense to wait and they wanted to avoid a start without customers like in Switzerland.
Now they convinced a critical mass of banks for the German market and going to launch a big deal.
Good for us
Nah. I'm still convinced they would have gone along with fewer banks this year. After the Google Pay launch and SPK / VoBa launching their Android solutions, it was time for Apple Pay to come along. They were possibly waiting for the Sparkassen. But very strange that all of a sudden things were moving very quickly in June/July. Did Apple strike a deal, no matter what and was prepared to make concessions to the German banks? We will never know, but sure can imagine that's what happened. We all assumed that it was because they were waiting for Girocard to be ready for Apple Pay, but from what we gather right now it will be launching without Girocard. Sort of points to the what I said above.
Either way I'm happy it's launching and I'm kind of hoping that it will be as in France or Italy, that more and more banks join over time. Not like in Switzerland, where there has been no movement at all since launching.