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MacSERV

macrumors newbie
Aug 16, 2009
25
18
Central FL
While this isn't a sure fire way of determining if it's a NAND issue or not, it may at least get you close. During the restore process, monitor the status of the device using PurpleSNIFF on the host Mac. Check the output and see if the "Serial Number" entry is present (depending on mode, it may not be listed at all, or listed with text reading "(not found)" in red). Note that the serial number will never be shown in DFU mode, only in "Recovery Mode" or "Restore Mode". Second, ensure you perform the restore using macOS Finder under macOS 14 Sonoma or later, and NOT Apple Configurator 2. Doing so will leave a log of each restore attempt in "~/Library/Logs/Mac Updater Logs", which can also be useful for pinpointing issues.

More times than not, lack of displayed serial number will be due to failed NAND, as that is read from syscfg, which is stored on NAND, and can only be read if the installed NANDs are working and part of a valid programmed config.
OK I did not try again while using PurpleSNIFF, but I did locate the log entries you mentioned from my original attempts (using Finder in Sonoma). Sadly, the serial number is showing in the log files from the 3 Restore attempts (but not in the log from the Revive attempt that was tried first). Does this mean it's something else, or should I try again using PurpleSNIFF?

FWIW, the last entry in each log file is "Depth:0 Code:21 Error:Failed to restore device in recovery mode, libusbrestore error:21". I'd be happy to upload the log files too if that's helpful...
 
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dosdude1

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Feb 16, 2012
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OK I did not try again while using PurpleSNIFF, but I did locate the log entries you mentioned from my original attempts (using Finder in Sonoma). Sadly, the serial number is showing in the log files from the 3 Restore attempts (but not in the log from the Revive attempt that was tried first). Does this mean it's something else, or should I try again using PurpleSNIFF?

FWIW, the last entry in each log file is "Depth:0 Code:21 Error:Failed to restore device in recovery mode, libusbrestore error:21". I'd be happy to upload the log files too if that's helpful...
Yeah, posting the full log would be helpful, though if you are seeing the serial number show in the logs, chances are there is some other issue. Just check with PurpleSNIFF anyways, though.
 

MacSERV

macrumors newbie
Aug 16, 2009
25
18
Central FL
Log files attached (I had to zip them, this platform didn't recognize them in their native .log format)
 

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Rickyandika

macrumors newbie
Dec 30, 2020
20
8
Hi i have a macbook pro m2. Im wondering if i could remove all the nand. And just use a single 1TB(K5A8 because its cheaper than 2 512GB nand)nand on the NAND0 pad and work? The table in the first post doesnt say that i could. Also do i need to cut power to the empty pad or just leave it as is? Thanks
 

dosdude1

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Feb 16, 2012
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Hi i have a macbook pro m2. Im wondering if i could remove all the nand. And just use a single 1TB(K5A8 because its cheaper than 2 512GB nand)nand on the NAND0 pad and work? The table in the first post doesnt say that i could. Also do i need to cut power to the empty pad or just leave it as is? Thanks
Nope, single 1TB NAND is not a valid config, you must use 2 512GB. Also, standard M2 MacBook Pro still uses BGA110 NAND, so you need to use KIC5228 NAND instead to achieve 2TB. Lastly, if your system originally came with only one NAND installed, you will need to populate the omitted passive components (resistors, capacitors, etc) in order to utilize the second NAND.
 

Bassy_92

macrumors newbie
Sep 20, 2024
3
0
UK
1st and foremost what an amazing thread this is! great work @dosdude1 and @gilles_polysoft both are amazing members of the community!!!!!


so hear is one to pick your brain lads.....

I have a 14inch M1 Pro base (16gb/512GB)...and was looking to do the 2TB upgrade I'm certainly able to pull Nands, reball with stencil and then solder back on (after lots of training on bad boards).

so I imagine putting my list of things to buy and its obvious from the 1st post I will be needing 4x KICM229.

when opening the MacBook I find that its populated from the factory with 5 nands chips and not 4! GOT ME BAFFLED 😮

what does this mean for my upgrade.... as I was assuming that only 4 landing pads are active by default from factory on the base model and the other 4 landing pads are non active but if the UN500 nand slot is populated what does that mean for a 4TB/8TB upgrade?
 

dosdude1

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Original poster
Feb 16, 2012
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1st and foremost what an amazing thread this is! great work @dosdude1 and @gilles_polysoft both are amazing members of the community!!!!!


so hear is one to pick your brain lads.....

I have a 14inch M1 Pro base (16gb/512GB)...and was looking to do the 2TB upgrade I'm certainly able to pull Nands, reball with stencil and then solder back on (after lots of training on bad boards).

so I imagine putting my list of things to buy and its obvious from the 1st post I will be needing 4x KICM229.

when opening the MacBook I find that its populated from the factory with 5 nands chips and not 4! GOT ME BAFFLED 😮

what does this mean for my upgrade.... as I was assuming that only 4 landing pads are active by default from factory on the base model and the other 4 landing pads are non active but if the UN500 nand slot is populated what does that mean for a 4TB/8TB upgrade?
Having one with 5 populated chips will definitely make a 4TB or 8TB upgrade a lot easier. For those, you’ll only have to populate the passive components around the other 3 sets of NAND pads, as the second NAND power circuit will already be populated.
 

gilles_polysoft

macrumors regular
Jul 7, 2017
244
671
Tours (France)
so hear is one to pick your brain lads.....

I have a 14inch M1 Pro base (16gb/512GB)...and was looking to do the 2TB upgrade I'm certainly able to pull Nands, reball with stencil and then solder back on (after lots of training on bad boards).

so I imagine putting my list of things to buy and its obvious from the 1st post I will be needing 4x KICM229.

when opening the MacBook I find that its populated from the factory with 5 nands chips and not 4! GOT ME BAFFLED 😮

what does this mean for my upgrade.... as I was assuming that only 4 landing pads are active by default from factory on the base model and the other 4 landing pads are non active but if the UN500 nand slot is populated what does that mean for a 4TB/8TB upgrade?

Hello Bassy_92

Well.. never saw that, but I am far to have collected every supported configs in my table...
And I am not that surprised : the base config (512GB) uses more than 512GB, for overprovisionning.
If Kioxia NANDs are used, the first one is a KICM232 which is 160GB and the 3x others ones are KICM225 which are 128GB.

So I guess your config has more than 512GB but with 5x 128GB nands or 4x 128GB and a 64GB...

Can you please share a photo of UN500 ? and of the voltage regulator (UN400) ?

in any case, I guess you can desolder the 5x NANDs, and solder the 4x new, factory blank (or "bounded to general state") and leave the 338S00600 voltage regulator for UN500-800 unused.
 

Bassy_92

macrumors newbie
Sep 20, 2024
3
0
UK
@dosdude1 + @gilles_polysoft
Apologies for the delayed response. Life is often too hectic!

So yeah I don’t have much equipment to hand so the image quality isn’t the best…. So as you can see there is 3 nands on this side when normally there should only be 2.

Seems like an odd configuration but perhaps when looking into the nands I’ll get some more info.


Also I will try update tomorrow with Gilles questions, thanks! (And some more pics)


Hynix seems to be the brand used.

To the best as what I could tell we have on this side of the board:

1x HN3G9BA…..THIS IS THE UN500 (UN400 is in the next post of mine below)

2x HN3T0BA2


I’m now actually considering assessing the idea of going all out for the 4/8tb.

I really don’t have a clue where I’m going to find all the correct passive components from(anyone with a mouser shopping list or anything similar would be much appreciated).

Plus then there is the added complexity of getting them installed correctly, not sure if badcaps (or anywhere else) has a schematic for this model but would be great is that could be shared too!!!

Look forward to your reply!
Cheers

 

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dosdude1

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@dosdude1 + @gilles_polysoft
Apologies for the delayed response. Life is often too hectic!

So yeah I don’t have much equipment to hand so the image quality isn’t the best…. So as you can see there is 3 nands on this side when normally there should only be 2.

Seems like an odd configuration but perhaps when looking into the nands.


Hynix seems to be the brand used.

To the best as what I could tell we have:

1x HN3G9BA

2x HN3T0BA2


I’m now actually considering assessing the idea of going all out for the 4/8tb.

I really don’t have a clue where I’m going to find all the correct passive components from(anyone with a mouser shopping list or anything similar would be much appreciated).

Plus then there is the added complexity of getting them installed correctly, not sure if badcaps (or anywhere else) has a schematic for this model but would be great is that could be shared too!!!

Look forward to your reply!
Cheers

View attachment 2426739
There will be 2 more NANDs on the backside of the board (there are 8 sets of pads total). My Mouser project for the passives can be found here: https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=fd9bd9decb

Each order of this project is enough to completely populate all the passive components for ONE NAND... So to add 3, you need to order 3x the project. However, when I do this, I normally omit a lot of the small decoupling capacitors (and only install the larger decoupling caps and "essential" components), as it works perfectly fine without them.
 
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Hassansami014

macrumors newbie
Sep 23, 2024
1
1
Awesome!!! And brave / skilled.

You should have been a doctor, and a surgeon. The pay would be better .... and maybe a brain surgeon.

Apple's drive prices are too high.

My research:

(via a spreadsheet) :

The average price for Apple computer drives is $290.53 per Terabyte (TB).

The average price for NVME drives of Apple speed is $121.66 per TB. On average for internal storage, Apple is charging for computer storage, almost two and half times as the best NVME drives cost.

Currently (via B&H) a 4 TB is the best value at $85 per TB.

Apple's price in a computer for a 4TB drive is $317.38 per TB. 3.7 times price - rounded its four times the price if a B&H similar speed drive!!

The average price for iPad Pros per TB is $1,103.52, although above the base 128 GB, the average is $1,281.74 per TB. The base 128 GB is "only" $390.63 per TB. Hence if value orientated, iPad users should stick to the base drives. And the iPad seems crippled for large on board information work, due to such high storage prices. Best to buy a computer for such things, not an iPad. Hence too, an M2 processor makes no sense in an iPad. Or even an M1 for that matter.


Hence with Apple's high storage prices, I do not expect Apple to introduce Thunderbolt 5 for a considerable time!!
Thank you for the detailed breakdown! You've highlighted a critical point: Apple's storage prices are significantly inflated compared to high-performance NVMe drives available in the market. It’s fascinating to see the disparity—especially when a 4TB drive from B&H offers such a better value than what Apple provides. As you pointed out, iPad users are particularly affected, with higher-tier storage costs being astronomical. It’s no surprise that power users are better off sticking to base models or opting for external solutions, especially with the lack of Thunderbolt 5 in the near future.

Given the direction Apple has taken with storage pricing, it makes sense why many consumers are looking for alternatives or delaying upgrades altogether. Thunderbolt 5 adoption could help, but at this point, it feels like Apple is in no rush to integrate such features, given their current pricing model. In short, your analysis makes a strong case for users to carefully weigh storage decisions when purchasing Apple devices.
 
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Bassy_92

macrumors newbie
Sep 20, 2024
3
0
UK
@gilles_polysoft

Images Of The UN400 as requested. Please let me know is there anything else… and I’ll do my best to get it posted!




@dosdude1

I also took a snap of the vacant landing pad and it appears the passive components are already pre installed from factory.

Am I mistaken in my observation here? It does look like the caps are present but I’m a newbie and don’t know for sure so if you could have a glance and let me know… cheers!
 

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dosdude1

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Feb 16, 2012
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@gilles_polysoft

Images Of The UN400 as requested. Please let me know is there anything else… and I’ll do my best to get it posted!




@dosdude1

I also took a snap of the vacant landing pad and it appears the passive components are already pre installed from factory.

Am I mistaken in my observation here? It does look like the caps are present but I’m a newbie and don’t know for sure so if you could have a glance and let me know… cheers!
There is still a lot missing there that needs to be installed for that to work. You can check schematic for this model to determine all that needs to be installed.
 

Rickyandika

macrumors newbie
Dec 30, 2020
20
8
Hi, im planning on upgrading Macbook Pro 14” M2 Pro from 512GB to 2TB. Now there’s only 2 NAND chip populated. From my understanding i could simply put all 4 New NAND on the populated area(NAND 00)and just need to put the small component for the empty landing pad? I dont need to use the NAND 01 area at all and leave it as is right? Also the small components is it the same as the one provided by dosdude1 https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=fd9bd9decb

Thanks!
 
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Alameda

macrumors 65816
Jun 22, 2012
1,294
886
I’m curious… this seems like a complicated and risky undertaking. Has anyone considered dismantling a Thunderbolt drive and installing it internally? Much less to solder. It would appear as a separate drive but seems like it could be a simpler approach.
 

dosdude1

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Feb 16, 2012
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Hi, im planning on upgrading Macbook Pro 14” M2 Pro from 512GB to 2TB. Now there’s only 2 NAND chip populated. From my understanding i could simply put all 4 New NAND on the populated area(NAND 00)and just need to put the small component for the empty landing pad? I dont need to use the NAND 01 area at all and leave it as is right? Also the small components is it the same as the one provided by dosdude1 https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=fd9bd9decb

Thanks!
Yes, for 2TB, you can use 4x K5A5 NANDs and populate the necessary components for the two missing chips, leaving the rest of the board as-is. The Mouser project linked is correct for all Apple Silicon systems I’ve worked on, one order of the project will give you the correct number of parts for populating 1 chip.
 

james948

macrumors 6502a
Nov 17, 2004
517
149
Anyone know how close we are to getting 16tb ssds? Are there nands that would work or even available?
 

dontlan

macrumors regular
Jan 9, 2024
122
9
just a little contribution, as for Louis Rossman not being comfortable with "donor" components

there is two things to say about that :

1 - don't ask me how, but there is for years Chinese suppliers for brand new, original caps, inductors and more importantly brand new NANDs and power supply ICs.
(those are KICM223R and 338S000600 IC's in the case of A2442/A2485 8TB configs)

The Chinese market for NAND upgrades for iPhones is a thing for years, it is established and huge, and there are quality and trusty sellers over there.
I think we can be grateful of the knowledges and quality of work of Chinese technicians for this.

Our luck is that Applesilicon Macs (even the M2 Mac Pro) do use the exact sames NANDs found in every iPhone
(M1 mac use the same NANDS as iPhone 13, most M2 Mac use the same NANDs as in iPhone 14, etc).

You can check the references I have collected in the table of the first post of this thread.

It's simple logic : Apple achieves economies of scale, better pricing and overall quality by sourcing only one type of NAND for all its products: iPhones first, iPads second, and Macs third (and accessories at last).

So, in our misfortune that Apple solder and glue NAND chips, we are fortunate that there has been for years a mature iPhone upgrade market in China for years that we can take advantage of.



2 - The NAND chips used in iPhones and Apple Silicon Macs are really solid.

I mean really really really solid.

As a test, I've been trying for months to "kill" two Mac Mini M1s I owned before upgrading them to 2 TB.

I wrote with a script 700TB of data before their SMART "remaining life" status went to 0% which is remarkable for 256GB SSDs. This is a 700TBW "official" lifetime.

But there's more : I've continued the test and is is still not over.
At that time, my 2 mac minis both continue to accept writes at the nominal rate (3GB/s on the 1st third and 700MB/s thereafter as they're in TLC).

I'm up to 2.3PB of written data on one mac mini.
And 4.5PB on the other I started earlier (and still running).
4.5PBW... for a 256 2-chips SSD...
And both are still running day and night, just like the first day.

View attachment 2346747

what will be the lifetime of the 8TB SSD ? I'm going to test it in the Mac Studio cards clones I'm starting to built.


I'm writing this message on a 13" M1 MBA that I upgraded to 2TB a year and a half ago. With a quite intensive use, I am at ~60TBW so around 40TBW a year.

Of course due to my job I'm a backup maniac, so that's a reason not to be worried.
But I'm also not worried at all about reaching my 2TB SSD's lifespan any time soon because it should take me anything between 10 and 100 years to reach the lifetime of this 2TB SSD : all other parts of the mac would be dead before the NANDs will start to fail...

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but even if I was soldering used NANDs on a customer board, there would be no real danger here.

The real problem is that someone CAN solder and sell used NANDs.
No one should do this and I will never because in my case I have a trusty seller and always put new NANDs.

But the real problem is that once reprogrammed, used NANDs will show a false "data unit written" value of 0...
Can you measure the speed of this drive afterwards?
 

waterchill

macrumors member
Aug 19, 2016
38
7
Is there a way to check the nand's before installing if they are empty? With P15 programmer? Is it also possible to erase the nand's?
 

dosdude1

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Feb 16, 2012
2,779
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Is there a way to check the nand's before installing if they are empty? With P15 programmer? Is it also possible to erase the nand's?
You can check them with P13/15, if the JCID software says something like “Bound to the general state”, that indicates they’re blank. It is not possible to restore a NAND back to a “blank” state once it has been programmed.
 

waterchill

macrumors member
Aug 19, 2016
38
7
You can check them with P13/15, if the JCID software says something like “Bound to the general state”, that indicates they’re blank. It is not possible to restore a NAND back to a “blank” state once it has been programmed.
Thanks. You have a zip file on your server K5A8-blank.zip. What is this for?
 

waterchill

macrumors member
Aug 19, 2016
38
7
Just was for testing, flashing those dumps doesn’t work.
The P15 message is:

NAND model:HN3T3BTGCAX405_1TB


The hard disk has been detected. The hard disk is bound to the general state. After writing to the bottom layer, it can be installed and used.

What does it mean "After writing to the bottom layer, it can be installed and used." Can I use this IC's for upgrade M2 Air? Thank you
 
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