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epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
There's no "winning" or losing. What are you guys being so dramatic about? Please.

The thread is asking should Apple close the gap on the S6 hardware, and indeed, on the offerings by many other OEMs on the hardware front and to extend the conversation, on the software front.

Some say they should up their game. You guys say they shouldn't bother and should continue at the pace they are going. I think the former is wiser (and can give people who want to do more things with their iPhones the option to), and the latter folly in the face of competitors bringing so much heat. You guys think the opposite.

So be it.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,162
25,282
Gotta be in it to win it
Nobody is saying Apple shouldn't do anything to up its hardware game. What is being asked is what is the benefit to Apple if they put a 10 core snapdragon in the next iPhone to match samsungs phone, instead of the 6 core they were contemplating.

Or instead of a 20 mp sensor they opt for a 10 mp sensor with extraordinary image iq and dynamic range. And on and on.

Does Apple have to match hardware byte for byte and pixel for pixel?
 

epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
Nobody is saying Apple shouldn't do anything to up its hardware game. What is being asked is what is the benefit to Apple if they put a 10 core snapdragon in the next iPhone to match samsungs phone, instead of the 6 core they were contemplating.

Or instead of a 20 mp sensor they opt for a 10 mp sensor with extraordinary image iq and dynamic range. And on and on.

Does Apple have to match hardware byte for byte and pixel for pixel?

No.

It would be nice to add wireless charging or quick charge features. It'd be nice if the screen quality was as nice as the S6's. It'd be nice if pictures could be zoomed in without losing detail. It'd be nice if the front facing camera could be clearer. Really, 1.2 is appallingly low. Does it have to be exactly 5MPs like the S6's? No, not necessarily, but it wouldn't hurt the end user either. It'd be nice if there was more RAM so people who browse with more tabs don't run into refreshes.

On the software side, it'd be nice if some things were customizable. Why is AirPlay still in my Control Center when I don't ever use it? Ever. Why can't I remove it from my own phone to cater to my own user experience (remember how important this is to you?)? It'd be nice if navigating backwards in iOS became more consistent. Again, does this mean Apple needs to exactly copy Google and include a dedicated "back" button? No, not necessarily. It'd be nice if I can do software updates over data instead of forcing me to do it over Wi-Fi. Etc. There are many many more examples.

Do any of these sound so terrible for Apple to add? Do any of these things necessarily dictate that it should be pixel for pixel or spec for spec? Not necessarily.

Should any of these things (and more) not be added because Apple is selling the iPhone so well? The answer -- if anyone wants the iPhone experience to get better -- should be a resounding no.

Should any of these things (and more) not be added because you personally don't need it or want it, but others might? The answer -- if you truly care about personal and individual use as you profess you do -- should be a resounding no.

It's really as simple as that.

Will Apple actually add every single one of these things? Unlikely. I'm no fool. They'll continue at the pace they continue at and do perfectly well; heck they may have another record breaking year. Great for them. Not necessarily great for the user who wants their iPhones to do more.
 

epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
It'll be interesting to see what Apple does with this Force Touch thing.

Is it widely accepted and praised on the Apple Watch?
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
I was in a store today and they had the Galaxy S6 next to the iPhone 6, and I have to say that the S6 feels more premium than the iPhone, it has a far better screen, feels better built, has a much faster camera, in fact the whole device feels a lot faster than the clunky iOS interface.

Samsung have done a cracking job I have to say and in my opinion have beaten the iPhone 6.

Apple will need to improve the iPhone to match or beat the S6. The only bad thing with the S6 is the large camera hump, but the photos and speed of it's camera seemed worth the sacrifice to me.

And I would also add that whilst in the photos the S6 looks like an iPhone a bit, in reality it looks nothing like an iPhone and definitely has it's own design language.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,318
25,470
Wales, United Kingdom
The evidence is there in the post I quoted. Did you read it? The numbers and specs are there to see. The feature lists are easy to look up and compare. Objectively speaking, apple is doing less, and are widlly successfil tegardless. How is that competing? Yes the experience is good and often reliable, but I submit that their success is largely because of branding and marketing and the influence it holds on the media. People don't know better. The reality though is that when you open yourself up to the android platform, you discover apple has little advantage in a few areas and android has the advantage in many more.



Again, if the only evidence you will accept is apples sales figures then indeed the iPhone must be the best smartphone both hardware wise and software wise. But I argue that it's a non sequitur to say sales = best. I argue the opposite. And further more, I argue that sales actually equates very little to evidence that apple is competing to the degree others are. Actual specs and features and capabilities should tell that story more, but all you people want to discuss is apples sales when we're talking about apple competing.



What can one do in the face of that? We keep saying, look at these numbers. Look what this phone can do that apple can't. Look how helpful or convenient or easier to use these features are. Or how forward thinking so and so is. And how we wish apple would also bring similar features to the iPhone. And all we get is, they don't need to. Look at their sales.



What a conversation.


To answer your question, Apple is competing by attacking the marketplace differently. They are successful by offering an easy to use, intuitive interface that people continue to buy. There is no rule book here that says they have to compete with hardware and software of others in the market. One thing about many of these discussions is you realise these devices appeal to different types of people and I think Apple is aiming at the average user rather than those demanding higher specs and unlimited technical freedom.
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
To answer your question, Apple is competing by attacking the marketplace differently. They are successful by offering an easy to use, intuitive interface that people continue to buy. There is no rule book here that says they have to compete with hardware and software of others in the market. One thing about many of these discussions is you realise these devices appeal to different types of people and I think Apple is aiming at the average user rather than those demanding higher specs and unlimited technical freedom.

To say that then is to accept that the majority of smartphone users are not average users and the demand higher specs and unlimited technical freedom, considering Androids global market share is far greater than Apple's.

I agree with the specs, Apple does not use high end specs at all, which makes it's ludicrous mark up on it's devices even more ridiculous.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,318
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To say that then is to accept that the majority of smartphone users are not average users and the demand higher specs and unlimited technical freedom, considering Androids global market share is far greater than Apple's.



I agree with the specs, Apple does not use high end specs at all, which makes it's ludicrous mark up on it's devices even more ridiculous.

I suppose that depends on whether it can be proven that the vast majority of Androids sales within that marketshare is for high end flagship models. I don't believe that to be the case. Quite a few of the older generation of my family own Android smartphones but wouldn't even know how to connect to the Internet. A good chunk of the global market is for budget devices and those types of people would not be interested in the latest tech anyway IMO.

I am happy paying for the iPhone regardless of whether it has tonnes of features i'll never use. I like the simplicity and reliability, combined with the continuity between my devices. I also like the range of apps available in the App Store including apps only available on iOS. I don't see it as a huge mark up but a price I am willing to pay for a product and service I enjoy using. :)
 

epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
To answer your question, Apple is competing by attacking the marketplace differently. They are successful by offering an easy to use, intuitive interface that people continue to buy. There is no rule book here that says they have to compete with hardware and software of others in the market. One thing about many of these discussions is you realise these devices appeal to different types of people and I think Apple is aiming at the average user rather than those demanding higher specs and unlimited technical freedom.

They can and maybe should aim at both?
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,162
25,282
Gotta be in it to win it
They can and maybe should aim at both?

This is marketing and product development you would be talking about. I only know what they "do" do, what they "should" do is a matter of opinion.

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To say that then is to accept that the majority of smartphone users are not average users and the demand higher specs and unlimited technical freedom, considering Androids global market share is far greater than Apple's.

I agree with the specs, Apple does not use high end specs at all, which makes it's ludicrous mark up on it's devices even more ridiculous.

It's like saying the Apple watch has $83 dollars in parts and how could Apple sell it for $450? Let's ignore, r&d and support in that.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,318
25,470
Wales, United Kingdom
They can and maybe should aim at both?

They could do and I wouldn't have a problem with it. Then again it depends what percentage of their target market are demanding feature packed devices. They would also be pushing themselves into an area that would be more costly if it wasn't having a massive boost in sales. As a single device manufacturer, Apple are doing better than anybody and it's always a risk when you completely change direction IMO.

At the moment the iPhone is very different to the competition, would we want another Android like experience? It's not like Apple don't introduce new things each year as it is. Change is good, I just admire Apple for introducing features that focus on the user experience rather than offering quantity over quality if you know what I mean. :)
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
16,080
19,080
US
No.



It would be nice to add wireless charging or quick charge features. It'd be nice if the screen quality was as nice as the S6's. It'd be nice if pictures could be zoomed in without losing detail. It'd be nice if the front facing camera could be clearer. Really, 1.2 is appallingly low. Does it have to be exactly 5MPs like the S6's? No, not necessarily, but it wouldn't hurt the end user either. It'd be nice if there was more RAM so people who browse with more tabs don't run into refreshes.



On the software side, it'd be nice if some things were customizable. Why is AirPlay still in my Control Center when I don't ever use it? Ever. Why can't I remove it from my own phone to cater to my own user experience (remember how important this is to you?)? It'd be nice if navigating backwards in iOS became more consistent. Again, does this mean Apple needs to exactly copy Google and include a dedicated "back" button? No, not necessarily. It'd be nice if I can do software updates over data instead of forcing me to do it over Wi-Fi. Etc. There are many many more examples.



Do any of these sound so terrible for Apple to add? Do any of these things necessarily dictate that it should be pixel for pixel or spec for spec? Not necessarily.



Should any of these things (and more) not be added because Apple is selling the iPhone so well? The answer -- if anyone wants the iPhone experience to get better -- should be a resounding no.



Should any of these things (and more) not be added because you personally don't need it or want it, but others might? The answer -- if you truly care about personal and individual use as you profess you do -- should be a resounding no.



It's really as simple as that.



Will Apple actually add every single one of these things? Unlikely. I'm no fool. They'll continue at the pace they continue at and do perfectly well; heck they may have another record breaking year. Great for them. Not necessarily great for the user who wants their iPhones to do more.


Thanks Epicrayban for the great work in the is thread! Thanks for speaking up and presenting it so eloquently! Nice work!!
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,162
25,282
Gotta be in it to win it
They could do and I wouldn't have a problem with it. Then again it depends what percentage of their target market are demanding feature packed devices. They would also be pushing themselves into an area that would be more costly if it wasn't having a massive boost in sales. As a single device manufacturer, Apple are doing better than anybody and it's always a risk when you completely change direction IMO.

At the moment the iPhone is very different to the competition, would we want another Android like experience? It's not like Apple don't introduce new things each year as it is. Change is good, I just admire Apple for introducing features that focus on the user experience rather than offering quantity over quality if you know what I mean. :)


Your viewpoint succinctly summarizes what appears to be Apple philosophy. While I believe most manufacturers want to emulate Apples success, it seems apple has worked hard to perfect their secret sauce of incremental phone improvements.

I fully admit iOS could use some improvements which I believe is coming in iOS 9.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,318
25,470
Wales, United Kingdom
Your viewpoint succinctly summarizes what appears to be Apple philosophy. While I believe most manufacturers want to emulate Apples success, it seems apple has worked hard to perfect their secret sauce of incremental phone improvements.



I fully admit iOS could use some improvements which I believe is coming in iOS 9.

Yeah same here I think iOS 9 will be the biggest leap for a while. As far as hardware is concerned I think they have designed it well within the constraints of the demand put on it by the software. When you look at the specs of other flagship devices it seems Apple are way behind on paper, but user experience and the speed in which tasks are achieved are very similar.

I've made no secret of it though I do like the S6 and may try a Samsung offering again at next upgrade, but I am still loving the iPhone and my experience remains a positive one. :)
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
It's like saying the Apple watch has $83 dollars in parts and how could Apple sell it for $450? Let's ignore, r&d and support in that.

Apart from other manufactures using higher spec and more expensive components and yet they sell their devices below the iPhone cost... The R&D argument is a flawed one, because the market shows that, I don't think Apple spends more money on R&D then LG or Sony or Samsung et el..

In fact Samsung most likely spends more considering they now design and build their own chips, Apple has never made any of its iPhone components itself bar the OS.

Apple is charging as much as it can, because people pay it, and they laugh all the way to the bank as a result.
 
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epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
Apart from other manufacturer using higher spec and more expensive components and yet they sell their devices below the iPhone cost... The R&D argument is a flawed one, because the market shows that, I don't think Apple spends more money on R&D then LG or Sony or Samsung et el..

In fact Samsung most likely spends more considering they now design and build their own chips, Apple has never made any of its iPhone components itself bar the OS.

Apple is charging as much as it can, because people pay it, and they laugh all the way to the bank as a result.


Not to mention apples profit margins which people love to show off here as if that somehow translates to a better user experience.

And how much money is Apple sitting on in their bank? Isn't it somewhere absurdly high?

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In fact apple devices are so overpriced it's absurd. The s6 is expensive but I'm getting today's latest technology and a plethora of software features at my disposal. EDIT: Not to mention 32GB standard onboard storage vs Apple's 16GB.

Again I ask, show me the "words most advanced mobile operating system". Not sales figures.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,162
25,282
Gotta be in it to win it
Apart from other manufacturer using higher spec and more expensive components and yet they sell their devices below the iPhone cost... The R&D argument is a flawed one, because the market shows that, I don't think Apple spends more money on R&D then LG or Sony or Samsung et el..

In fact Samsung most likely spends more considering they now design and build their own chips, Apple has never made any of its iPhone components itself bar the OS.

Apple is charging as much as it can, because people pay it, and they laugh all the way to the bank as a result.

You can't even know what Is suggested by the straw man argument. You cannot know any companies r&d budget or what the effective cost of the electronics.

Apple is not a chip foundry they do not make chips, but they custom design their boards; or are you under the impression Samsung designs apples circuits.

NB I don't care about the worlds most advanced o/s; I happen to like iOS for now.
 

epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
You cannot know any companies r&d budget or what the effective cost of the electronics.

Neither can you, so what's your earlier point about how much Apple needs to charge for the Apple Watch for R&D and whatnot. How do you know most of those profits go into R&D and not, say, their bank? Unless you work at Apple and can prove you do, why should anyone take your comments about profits going into R&D any more serious than others?

More fallacious and false arguments from you?

NB I don't care about the worlds most advanced o/s; I happen to like iOS for now.

And there are people who happen to actually care. That's why this thread is here to discuss. I'm sorry you don't care, but great for you. If you truly don't care, then spare us your tiring false Samsung accusation, false relevance about Apple's profits, and false philosophical mumble jumble about how it's all pointless to talk about feature wishlists due to fear of some infinite conundrum of desires.

Or continue trolling and being that type of Apple "fan." : shrug :

And good ol' classic #2 argument: "iOS works great for me. Who cares if you want to discuss how it can work better for you." Didn't take long for you to use this again!

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Ya gotta hand it to these Apple apologists. You can call it trolling or you can call it being clever or you can call it whatever; the point is, it works.

This constant bickering does exactly what they want: it detracts from the actual point of conversation.

So instead of talking about how we wish Apple can improve or step up their game, we're instead debating whether they should or not. It's derailed this thread for pages and pages.

Apple "fans" ... it just works. ;)

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Thanks Epicrayban for the great work in the is thread! Thanks for speaking up and presenting it so eloquently! Nice work!!

Thanks. Others have done well here too, so praise is shared all around.

The sad thing is, this discussion shouldn't derail this way. It's such a time waster. Instead of talking about how Apple can improve faster/better in the face of rising competition, we're talking about whether or not they need to bother. And worse, the reasons they don't need to bother have little or nothing to do with the actual discussion.

Imagine if in a Google/Android thread, people say here's what Google needs to improve on. And imagine Google-apologists saying, no they don't! Look at their marketshare! Their marketshare clearly shows they're doing things right and that their focused strengths are all they need to continue focusing on, not their weaknesses.

Or imagine if people say, "hey, I don't need software updates to be all delivered on the same day. My device works just fine without the latest updates right away. So, who cares if you want to discuss how Google should try to update all their devices in a more timely tradition."

Imagine that conversation. How productive is that to discuss Google's shortcomings and where/how they can improve?

That's essentially what is happening here. And it's a shame.
 
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Technarchy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2012
6,753
4,927
The iPhone 6 is Apple's S4. As in completely disappointing and not remotely interesting from a hardware perspective and I thought iOS 8 was horrible.

Really hoping the iphone 6S rights the ship on the hardware and software side to at least some extent.
 

epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
The iPhone 6 is Apple's S4. As in completely disappointing and not remotely interesting from a hardware perspective and I thought iOS 8 was horrible.

Really hoping the iphone 6S rights the ship on the hardware and software side to at least some extent.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but like someone else said, Apple knew the redesign and the larger size would drive sales; they just didn't need to do very much. Couple that with the strong Apple branding, and you have runaway sales even without bringing anything seriously new to the table.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,162
25,282
Gotta be in it to win it
Neither can you, so what's your earlier point about how much Apple needs to charge for the Apple Watch for R&D and whatnot. How do you know most of those profits go into R&D and not, say, their bank? Unless you work at Apple and can prove you do, why should anyone take your comments about profits going into R&D any more serious than others?

More fallacious and false arguments from you?



And there are people who happen to actually care. That's why this thread is here to discuss. I'm sorry you don't care, but great for you. If you truly don't care, then spare us your tiring false Samsung accusation, false relevance about Apple's profits, and false philosophical mumble jumble about how it's all pointless to talk about feature wishlists due to fear of some infinite conundrum of desires.

Or continue trolling and being that type of Apple "fan." : shrug :

And good ol' classic #2 argument: "iOS works great for me. Who cares if you want to discuss how it can work better for you." Didn't take long for you to use this again!

----------

Ya gotta hand it to these Apple apologists. You can call it trolling or you can call it being clever or you can call it whatever; the point is, it works.

This constant bickering does exactly what they want: it detracts from the actual point of conversation.

So instead of talking about how we wish Apple can improve or step up their game, we're instead debating whether they should or not. It's derailed this thread for pages and pages.

Apple "fans" ... it just works. ;)

----------



Thanks. Others have done well here too, so praise is shared all around.

The sad thing is, this discussion shouldn't derail this way. It's such a time waster. Instead of talking about how Apple can improve faster/better in the face of rising competition, we're talking about whether or not they need to bother. And worse, the reasons they don't need to bother have little or nothing to do with the actual discussion.

Imagine if in a Google/Android thread, people say here's what Google needs to improve on. And imagine Google-apologists saying, no they don't! Look at their marketshare! Their marketshare clearly shows they're doing things right and that their focused strengths are all they need to continue focusing on, not their weaknesses.

Or imagine if people say, "hey, I don't need software updates to be all delivered on the same day. My device works just fine without the latest updates right away. So, who cares if you want to discuss how Google should try to update all their devices in a more timely tradition."

Imagine that conversation. How productive is that to discuss Google's shortcomings and where/how they can improve?

That's essentially what is happening here. And it's a shame.

I still would like to know how you know that Samsung has bigger r&d budget than Apple or were you trolling? How do you know what apples profit margins are as you implied in post 491.

I dont care what the next guy wants from iOS: if iOS doesn't work for him/her contact Apple or move to windows or android. I am not here on macrumors to pick up your lost causes.

The only bickering and name calling seems to come from the android side of house, the Apple side is very civil.
 
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epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
I still would like to know how you know that Samsung has bigger r&d budget than Apple or were you trolling? How do you know what apples profit margins are as you implied in post 491.

I dont care what the next guy wants from iOS: if iOS doesn't work for him/her contact Apple or move to windows or android. I am not here on macrumors to pick up your lost causes.

The only bickering and name calling seems to come from the android side of house, the Apple side is very civil.

What? I never said I knew anything about Samsung's R&D. Get your stories straight.

If you don't care, you sure are spending a lot of time in a thread that wants to discuss these things (not to mention pretty much nearly this entire subforum).

"I don't care what the next guy wants."

"I'm not here to pick up after your lost cause"

So, is this your carefully worded admission you're here to troll? Sounds like it. If you're not here to have an honest conversation why visit these threads and even participate in them with all your irrelevant and/or false points? Again, only conclusion I can draw is that you're trolling.

Either you care and want to participate in this discussion with honest points, or you don't and you should take your leave and let others who do care continue the discussion. If you want to talk about Apple profits, start a thread. If you don't want to do any of these things, yet are still here, you're trolling.
 
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epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
It's clear that Apple is uniquely positioned in the industry it's in.

I can't think of any other industry where this is true: where the slower innovator and the less feature-rich offerer is the industry leader. And not just the industry leader, but continues to break sales and influence the media so strongly.

Where else is this true? Not anywhere I can think of. So yes, one might regurgitate exactly what Apple wants you to believe, that the pace they release things is simply due to a more "focused" approach. And this is the reason why they're wildly successful, because this focus offers a better core experience.

I argue this is simply no longer true. It was true at a time when Apple was the only one that could offer a true smartphone experience. But it's different now, and Apple is finding success still by riding on that momentum it first built when there was literally no one that could compete with them. They maximized their advantage to full effect, and now, with that strong reputation and brand recognition, can essentially get away with near anything, including continue keeping a 4" screen despite industry and market/public demand.

I ask again, who else would get away with what Apple is doing? They are selling an image, a brand, a reputation, a pedigree, and not necessarily the best smartphone nor the most advanced mobile operating system.

And it's working like -- wait for it -- magic.
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
You can't even know what Is suggested by the straw man argument. You cannot know any companies r&d budget or what the effective cost of the electronics.

Apple is not a chip foundry they do not make chips, but they custom design their boards; or are you under the impression Samsung designs apples circuits.

NB I don't care about the worlds most advanced o/s; I happen to like iOS for now.

You sir have blatantly made the straw man argument.. YOU are the one who implied that Apple charges so much because of R&D NOT me, you have even still implied that in this post! So don't come back with my argument because you cannot claim to have any more knowledge than I do on the topic.
 

epicrayban

macrumors 604
Nov 7, 2014
6,517
5,353
You sir have blatantly made the straw man argument.. YOU are the one who implied that Apple charges so much because of R&D NOT me, you have even still implied that in this post! So don't come back with my argument because you cannot claim to have any more knowledge than I do on the topic.

It's been like this nearly the entire way of the discussion. He can't even get his stories straight anymore.

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Anyway, can we bring this topic back on course? I'm curious about real world feedback on this whole Force Touch movement. Sounds gimmicky to me. Will it be a difference maker in the iPhone 6S if it really does come to it? Not that I think the screen will shatter or anything, but I'm reluctant to ever push "hard" on a screen of any of my devices...
 
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