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Constant Kernel Panics – userspace watchdog timeout: no successful checkins from com.apple.WindowServer

johnalan

johnalan

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2009
868
1,023
Dublin, Ireland
I have Big Sur 11.1 running on a replacement M1, still has this issue.

So that's 4 machines I've owned:

* MBP 16inch i9
* MBP 13inch M1 x2
* MBP 15inch i7

Seen it in Catalina (introduced around 10.5.6), ****ing stunning that this is still a thing.
How is this not a glaringly obvious and urgent UX issue. IT NEEDS A FIX.
 
F

flitter

macrumors newbie
Apr 6, 2008
9
2
cfdlab said:
I went free of shutdown watchdog KP for 10 days after disabling SIP.

Then I upgraded to 11.1 and enabled SIP. The KP was back the same day.

Now back to disabling SIP.
Click to expand...
I disabled SIP a few days ago and had no problems for a while - so it definitely improved the situation, but the panic recurred last night.
 
T

tommiy

macrumors 6502
Dec 11, 2015
412
127
Sadly it appears that Apple is more focused upon pushing out new hardware or spruced up GUI that are cosmetic than fixing the real issue of the OS performance. For over a year now this thread has been running and across all different hardware and multiple versions. I just now wonder will Apple every make a MCACOS again hat is stable for the majority of users without critical bugs eg. external monitors no longer working properly, watchdog, etc etc....i'm glad I stayed away from all of this and remaind on 10.15.1 but I am reverting back to 10.14.5 which was the last known version that had no external monitor issues for myself. I've already reloaded it on an external harddrive and it works a charm with out bugs. I'll be avoiding Catalina and Big Sur....mind you I had to purchase a windows daily driver machine because the MAC just became too unreliable to utilise on a daily basis. That seems to have been a good decision as win10 on it has been very stable and very reliable. I still miss my mac just working....
 
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tommiy

macrumors 6502
Dec 11, 2015
412
127
Its been a while since anyone reported this issue. Has it gone away with 10.15.7 updates or BigSur or has everyone surrendered to fate?
 
F

flitter

macrumors newbie
Apr 6, 2008
9
2
Surrendered to fate. The only real fix for this would be a macOS update with the bug fix - if I remember my time in tech support right then panics generally have their own queue for fixing.
 
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S

stevenaaus

macrumors member
Oct 23, 2013
61
41
tommiy said:
or maybe they just don't have anyone with the skill to fix it.
Click to expand...
Well, i doubt that. The problem is management have to prioritise bug fixes. Long standing bugs get shuffled down the order i think. Some obvious bugs macOS has had since Snow Leopard are still around.

It's just a general failure in management. Fixing a power related kernel panic should be of the #1 priority, but Cook and Apple execs are - seemingly - oblivious to how crap modern macOS is. They spend all their time watching the stock options.
 
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johnalan

johnalan

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2009
868
1,023
Dublin, Ireland
The fact that I can’t turn off any of my 3 macs without seeing a KP 70% of the time.
16 and 15 inch intel MBP. 13 inch M1.
All running different software and Catalina to BigSur.
All have this issue with KP on reboot.

reported this 100 times. Do apple engineering not reboot and see this?

if I were leading an OS Dev team, being able to reboot properly would be a high ****ing priority.
 
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random-uk

random-uk

macrumors member
Dec 29, 2011
56
19
Having read through the whole thread (wow how can this still be a thing) I just wanted to add my data point. iMac Pro here with a thunderbolt 3 drive, external dell p2415q attached via usb-c to displayport cable, usb keyboard, usb numpad and an anker usb hub. I also have network shares attached.

I too have been experiencing the Watchdog hang on reboot, in both Catalina and Big Sur. For example:

Kernel Extensions in backtrace: com.apple.driver.watchdog(1.0)[7AE04EA4-D026-39A0-B2D5-5C9E4EE72967]@0xffffff800916d000->0xffffff800916efff com.apple.driver.AppleSMC(3.1.9)[D674490B-26E7-312B-9E8E-03250124CCC6]@0xffffff8007494000->0xffffff80074acfff dependency: com.apple.driver.watchdog(1)[7AE04EA4-D026-39A0-B2D5-5C9E4EE72967]@0xffffff800916d000->0xffffff800916efff dependency: com.apple.iokit.IOACPIFamily(1.4)[C8F0E837-965A-3EB4-B8F6-4C2142046028]@0xffffff80082d7000->0xffffff80082d8fff dependency: com.apple.iokit.IOPCIFamily(2.9)[D0F1BFB8-C28E-3E70-891B-73B783189394]@0xffffff800882c000->0xffffff8008853fff Process name corresponding to current thread: kernel_task Boot args: chunklist-security-epoch=0 -chunklist-no-rev2-dev

In my case, Watchdog hangs don't happen on every reboot but generally after my iMac Pro has been up for 2-3 days. I have been trying to isolate any external peripherals to see whether they are causing any issues. I have systematically gone through everything attached, removing one at a time, waiting 2-3 days then attempting a reboot. Nothing has made any difference in my case so far. Oh and I've also done the SMC/PRAM dance to no benefit.

With such a variety of hardware and setups in this thread, it really does seem like a macOS bug. A question for the group: for anyone experiencing the kernel panic on reboot bug, do you have a more reliable/faster way of making this happen rather than the wait a couple of days method I'm using?
 
K

KevinGrabher

macrumors regular
Aug 29, 2009
117
41
johnalan said:
I have Big Sur 11.1 running on a replacement M1, still has this issue.

So that's 4 machines I've owned:

* MBP 16inch i9
* MBP 13inch M1 x2
* MBP 15inch i7

Seen it in Catalina (introduced around 10.5.6), ****ing stunning that this is still a thing.
How is this not a glaringly obvious and urgent UX issue. IT NEEDS A FIX.
Click to expand...

I think with your issue on that many machines it's beyond obvious that this is an issue with 3rd party software or a peripheral in your case.
I am baffled that you'd rather get MLBs and entire machines replaced than to properly troubleshoot the issue.
 
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flitter

macrumors newbie
Apr 6, 2008
9
2
KevinGrabher said:
I think with your issue on that many machines it's beyond obvious that this is an issue with 3rd party software or a peripheral in your case.
I am baffled that you'd rather get MLBs and entire machines replaced than to properly troubleshoot the issue.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you could offer some suggestions that go beyond what’s in the thread already?
 
C

cfdlab

macrumors regular
Feb 26, 2008
179
220
random-uk said:
Having read through the whole thread (wow how can this still be a thing) I just wanted to add my data point. iMac Pro here with a thunderbolt 3 drive, external dell p2415q attached via usb-c to displayport cable, usb keyboard, usb numpad and an anker usb hub. I also have network shares attached.

I too have been experiencing the Watchdog hang on reboot, in both Catalina and Big Sur. For example:

Kernel Extensions in backtrace: com.apple.driver.watchdog(1.0)[7AE04EA4-D026-39A0-B2D5-5C9E4EE72967]@0xffffff800916d000->0xffffff800916efff com.apple.driver.AppleSMC(3.1.9)[D674490B-26E7-312B-9E8E-03250124CCC6]@0xffffff8007494000->0xffffff80074acfff dependency: com.apple.driver.watchdog(1)[7AE04EA4-D026-39A0-B2D5-5C9E4EE72967]@0xffffff800916d000->0xffffff800916efff dependency: com.apple.iokit.IOACPIFamily(1.4)[C8F0E837-965A-3EB4-B8F6-4C2142046028]@0xffffff80082d7000->0xffffff80082d8fff dependency: com.apple.iokit.IOPCIFamily(2.9)[D0F1BFB8-C28E-3E70-891B-73B783189394]@0xffffff800882c000->0xffffff8008853fff Process name corresponding to current thread: kernel_task Boot args: chunklist-security-epoch=0 -chunklist-no-rev2-dev

In my case, Watchdog hangs don't happen on every reboot but generally after my iMac Pro has been up for 2-3 days. I have been trying to isolate any external peripherals to see whether they are causing any issues. I have systematically gone through everything attached, removing one at a time, waiting 2-3 days then attempting a reboot. Nothing has made any difference in my case so far. Oh and I've also done the SMC/PRAM dance to no benefit.

With such a variety of hardware and setups in this thread, it really does seem like a macOS bug. A question for the group: for anyone experiencing the kernel panic on reboot bug, do you have a more reliable/faster way of making this happen rather than the wait a couple of days method I'm using?
Click to expand...
I had exact same problem on catalina and BS. Crashes during shutdown, nothing external connected. After disabling SIP, I dont get this anymore.
 
K

KevinGrabher

macrumors regular
Aug 29, 2009
117
41
flitter said:
Perhaps you could offer some suggestions that go beyond what’s in the thread already?
Click to expand...

I've gone into this a little bit in #851, unless the logs gives you a specific hint (which typically isn't the case with watchdog kernel panics) it's pretty much trial error.
First step, as I've seen this to be the most common, is peripherals. Either unplug one peripheral after another, or possibly everything at once (displays, drives, etc.), if you're on a desktop, try another connection for your display, if you're on a MacBook, try using it with just the external screen. The issue can be triggered by just about anything (possibly even something like a keyboard, especially if it has a USB hub).

If the issue still occurs with no peripherals at all move on to software. First look at the ones that require kernel extensions (uninstall the application as well as their kext) like VMware, Parallels, Fuse, etc.
Then move on to "regular" software (keep those little helpers in mind that just run in the background as well).

If all else fails, format and clean install your Mac, do not restore from backup, do not install 3rd party software, use your Mac and see if the issue persists. If it does, you might actually be facing a hardware issue, but these are fairly uncommon with watchdog-KPs.
If the problem is gone, slowly start re-adding peripherals/software to your system to find the culprit.

I realise this is a painstaking process, especially if you depend on your Mac for work and don't have a 2nd machine, but if all else fails, you'll probably need to move through these steps if you want the issue resolved for good.

Also - if you're not up-to-date on macOS, update first (I haven't had any customers facing the issue since Big Sur 11.1)
 
random-uk

random-uk

macrumors member
Dec 29, 2011
56
19
KevinGrabher said:
I've gone into this a little bit in #851, unless the logs gives you a specific hint (which typically isn't the case with watchdog kernel panics) it's pretty much trial error.
First step, as I've seen this to be the most common, is peripherals. Either unplug one peripheral after another, or possibly everything at once (displays, drives, etc.), if you're on a desktop, try another connection for your display, if you're on a MacBook, try using it with just the external screen. The issue can be triggered by just about anything (possibly even something like a keyboard, especially if it has a USB hub).

If the issue still occurs with no peripherals at all move on to software. First look at the ones that require kernel extensions (uninstall the application as well as their kext) like VMware, Parallels, Fuse, etc.
Then move on to "regular" software (keep those little helpers in mind that just run in the background as well).

If all else fails, format and clean install your Mac, do not restore from backup, do not install 3rd party software, use your Mac and see if the issue persists. If it does, you might actually be facing a hardware issue, but these are fairly uncommon with watchdog-KPs.
If the problem is gone, slowly start re-adding peripherals/software to your system to find the culprit.

I realise this is a painstaking process, especially if you depend on your Mac for work and don't have a 2nd machine, but if all else fails, you'll probably need to move through these steps if you want the issue resolved for good.

Also - if you're not up-to-date on macOS, update first (I haven't had any customers facing the issue since Big Sur 11.1)
Click to expand...
11.1 clean install here and still having the kernel panic on reboot issue (just to provide a data point). I'm going through the painstaking process you describe (gosh such fun). I just wish there were a way to speed up the process of the kernel panic happening. To change one thing (i.e. remove external monitor) and then have to wait 2-3 days before testing a reboot really slows down the process of elimination.

I tried the loop video that was mentioned earlier in this thread but that doesn't seem to trigger the issue for me.

Interesting about @cfdlab running without SIP and not seeing the reboot kernel panic issue. I wonder what that interaction links to.
 
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KevinGrabher

macrumors regular
Aug 29, 2009
117
41
random-uk said:
11.1 clean install here and still having the kernel panic on reboot issue (just to provide a data point). I'm going through the painstaking process you describe (gosh such fun). I just wish there were a way to speed up the process of the kernel panic happening. To change one thing (i.e. remove external monitor) and then have to wait 2-3 days before testing a reboot really slows down the process of elimination.

I tried the loop video that was mentioned earlier in this thread but that doesn't seem to trigger the issue for me.

Interesting about @cfdlab running without SIP and not seeing the reboot kernel panic issue. I wonder what that interaction links to.
Click to expand...
Looking at your setup I think the culprit could be one of the external HDDs or NAS, but maybe only if it's in standby?
(I've known someone who has that issue with a western digital drive where his iMac wouldn't shut down depending wether the external drive was "running" or on standby.)

Perhaps you could try using your Mac as you do usually but disconnecting all shares and drives (eject network volumes, plug out USB drives, possibly also the Anker hub) before you shut down (or reboot/sleep - can't recall exactly which issue you are facing).
 
johnalan

johnalan

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2009
868
1,023
Dublin, Ireland
KevinGrabher said:
I think with your issue on that many machines it's beyond obvious that this is an issue with 3rd party software or a peripheral in your case.
I am baffled that you'd rather get MLBs and entire machines replaced than to properly troubleshoot the issue.
Click to expand...



I have reverse engineered macOS, followed the backtrace and call stack in Xcode, reversed engineered the SMC bin in Ghidra trying to trouble shoot this.
I've already isolated the likely problematic code and spoken with macOS engineering about it, which is part of XNU.

I have a control MBP with vanilla Big Sur 11.1, never had anything but the Apple charger plugged into it, no user-land software outside of stock Apple apps, no kernel extensions, literally out of the box, and it has this issue.


"beyond obvious" top ****ing kek.

Thank you for your sagacious insight, wonderful to finally have a path forward.
 
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random-uk

random-uk

macrumors member
Dec 29, 2011
56
19
KevinGrabher said:
Looking at your setup I think the culprit could be one of the external HDDs or NAS, but maybe only if it's in standby?
(I've known someone who has that issue with a western digital drive where his iMac wouldn't shut down depending wether the external drive was "running" or on standby.)

Perhaps you could try using your Mac as you do usually but disconnecting all shares and drives (eject network volumes, plug out USB drives, possibly also the Anker hub) before you shut down (or reboot/sleep - can't recall exactly which issue you are facing).
Click to expand...
Good thing to test indeed. I was wondering whether SMB might be an issue as I know Apple has been rewriting some of that. I'm currently testing having my iMac Pro never sleep for a couple days then I'll try a reboot and see if it kernel panics.
 
random-uk

random-uk

macrumors member
Dec 29, 2011
56
19
johnalan said:
I have reverse engineered macOS, followed the backtrace and call stack in Xcode, reversed engineered the SMC bin in Ghidra trying to trouble shoot this.
I've already isolated the likely problematic code and spoken with macOS engineering about it, which is part of XNU.

I have a control MBP with vanilla Big Sur 11.1, never had anything but the Apple charger plugged into it, no user-land software outside of stock Apple apps, no kernel extensions, literally out of the box, and it has this issue.


Thank you for your sagacious insight, wonderful to finally have a path forward.
Click to expand...
@johnalan are you seeing the random kernel panics or the kernel panic on reboot?
 
random-uk

random-uk

macrumors member
Dec 29, 2011
56
19
johnalan said:
Only on reboot. I'm sure I would see them at other times if I were using a screen etc, just I don't use peripherals.
Click to expand...
@johnalan have you seen any pattern in the amount of time your machine has to be up before a reboot will cause the panic? Or is it any reboot - i.e. start the machine, then immediately reboot, then instant panic?
 
johnalan

johnalan

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2009
868
1,023
Dublin, Ireland
random-uk said:
Heh you have to love a difficult to reproduce bug :)
Click to expand...
It was definitely introduced in Catalina at around 10.15.5
I have a work machine which features on work software. Microsoft stack etc.

it’s managed so I don’t control the software on it.

they recently moved (as they always slowly release Mac updates) from 10.15.3 to 10.15.7 and overnight it too had the issue.

it wasn’t on 10.15.3.
 
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telepati

telepati

macrumors 6502
Jan 20, 2009
476
309
Can anyone recreate the panic? Cause mine is totally random I cant create it.
 
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