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KALLT

macrumors 603
Sep 23, 2008
5,380
3,415
The majority of Mac users quickly move to the latest OS version. Why would you expect them to bother with an old OS with a small user base?

It isn’t quite a clear-cut as on iOS. The numbers are not so dependable and older systems retain a respectable market share. Mavericks, for instance, still holds an estimated 17%. This is still a significant number.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
I suspect the root of El Cappy's problem is "rootless." Blocking and locking down the OS on a laptop/desktop is going to break a lot of things that used to "just work."
.

Disagree. SIP attempts to secure the integrity of the OS. Apps that write there are either hacks or buggy. Those directories are not for 3rd party consumption and you'd generally expect Apple apps to be compatible with SIP after updates.
 

pat500000

Suspended
Jun 3, 2015
8,523
7,515
Looking ever closer to a 3rd clean install; Safari & Preview both broke this afternoon. Am starting to wonder if it`s just this hardware (2014, 2.8Ghz, 512 SSD) as I upgraded one of my older mac`s (2011 15" high tier MBP) that my daughter now uses with no apparent issues, equally her usage is very different.

Am just getting sick of it, there is absolutely no reason why this Mac should have had so many issues with 10.11, equally they persist, nor do they appear to be isolated cases. Frankly 10.10.5 is running better on my 1.2 rMB now than 10.11.1 on this 13" 2.8 rMBP, after my experiences with the 13" rMBP I am far from inclined to even consider upgrading a 100% zero issue Mac to 10.11

I have owned Mac portables for 10 years and I have never seen an OS upgrade produce to many problems; Installer, Mail, Preview, AirDrop, Safari, Network specifically VPN`s and slow. Ironically where many struggled with 10.10 I have had zero issue across multiple Mac`s it`s like there is no longer any consistency from Apple. I upgraded the Early 2011 15" MBP to 10.11 as it was slow on 10.10.5 (spinner) and superficially it has none of the issues I have observed with the 13" rMPB, yet the 13" is a clean install...WHY

Right now I am considering to move this Mac back to 10.9.5 or 10.10.5 both stable and well developed OS`s well for me at least. I am struggling with the premise of spending another day dealing with 10.11 and it`s problems. I have also seen just how well Windows 10 runs on very low level hardware, in many respects it puts OS X to shame, equally the OS has it`s own issues.

Q-6
i'm sorry to hear that, but apparently Apple won't be bothered by your problems..unless more people report this. Until then, try alternative.
 

dylin

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2010
663
52
California
Which doesn’t make their opinion less valid. Some friends of mine don’t know much about computers and they pretty much dependent upon the reliability of their Macs. These should just work without much hassle. Stuff that doesn’t work from the start is uninteresting or will be discarded. A friend of mine is still using Mountain Lion and asking me whether he should upgrade and the truth simply is that I know that he is probably better off when everything continues to work like it currently does. This is what Apple needs to tackle, its software should remain dependable.

My mistake. I wasn't trying to imply that it's less valid but rather it wasn't giving much info on how it performs. I personally have problems with Apple removing features such as the raid function in disk utility
 

Riwam

macrumors 65816
Jan 7, 2014
1,095
244
Basel, Switzerland
Aren't most of the one stars because they can't even install it?
**********
If that should be a compliment to the new OSX, if I was part of the present developing team of Apple, I would consider to quit my job or, for purely financial (as opposed to moral) reasons, try to move to another department of the company. :( The Customer Care department would be the truly deserved one :eek:
Ed
 

chevalier433

macrumors 6502a
Mar 30, 2011
510
13
Because every new OS X reveals bugs in the third-party software ;) And Snow Leopard "polished"? Already forgot that bug that deleted user directories during upgrade? Any 10.10 and 10.11 bug is completely harmless in comparison.

P.S. In regards to Windows 10 — not much can go wrong if you don't change anything...

In the national tv station I work in one Mac pro machine we upgrade to el cap email VIP contacts banished that was ****in ugly,in new moronic disk utility our raid arrays shows as untitled,when we are tried to restore back with time machine we encounter major disfuctionality.Specifically, choosing Enter Time Machine from the TM menu starts drawing the user interface for getting to the backup, but it gets about half way done, then the screen redraws back to normal—Time Machine somehow gives up and quits. So there is no no way to restore a file(barring tedious command line invocations in Terminal perhaps).We couldn't even scan a document image capture hangs and hangs.Multi-monitor setup simply not working as intended.You call these non destructive bugs?
So all our Mac Pros are in 10.8.5 and our Dell PCs workstations are upgraded to Windows 10 and works exceptionally well and faster than ever.Well done Apple and misleader Cook,keep up the good work.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
That is the reason why so many users get back to the previous OS.

El Capitan adoption rate is now estimated at 25%, one month after launch. This is very similar to Yosemite's adoption rate, which was the most successful OS X release to date. I don't see any evidence of many users getting to previous OS. You can't judge this just by looking at few posts here and there on these forums.

Apple's own Apps and even essential parts of the OS itself are among the reported bugs and problems. :oops:

Which is expected given who fundamental the change is — and — which also shows that this change was bitterly needed. SIP only protects locations that are of no business to applications running in the user space (SIP or no SIP), so the issues show the extent of bugs and unsafe behaviour that currently exists. With SIP, Apple is enforcing the best practice rules, which will make computing a better experience for everyone. The initial period is always accompanied with problems. And I am quite surprised that the problems are not more severe than they are — which shows that SIP was really designed very well and that developers have adapted quickly. I never run into any substantial issue in over half the year of using 10.11

BTW, a similar story from the MS world. The permission system in Windows used to be basically non-existing. Any application could write essentially anywhere. It was a commonplace for applications to arbitrarily write to their own folder to save data, and the whole thing was a security nightmare (one of the reasons why Windows has the stigma of being insecure). Its not that Windows did not offer tools to do things properly, its just that nobody bothered. MS has eventually fixed this in Vista, which started enforcing write permissions in a manner similar to how Unix does it. It was a huge disaster initially, because most applications have stopped working. Funnily enough, this was one thing that Vista did right but it was also the primary reason why Vista is regarded as a failure. Eventually, most contemporary applications got fixed, the Windows became much more stable OS and everybody got quite impressed — this more or less coincides with the release of 7, which then suddenly became a "good" OS.

Bottomline: programmers are lazy and if you allow them to do everything, they will often choose the unsustainable, messy solution. Sometimes, best practices need to be enforced with iron hand. Apple does good for enforcing this one now.
 
Jul 4, 2015
4,487
2,551
Paris
Android is junk no matter how you spin it. Windows, I haven't used that actively since Win2k so can't comment.
It's no less junk than iOS 9. One has flexibility to increase storage, more choice of browser engines, and has a file manager. The other is basically a modern version of Palm OS with a shop to buy stuff.

As for Windows 10, here's the winning levels it achieves over El Capitan:

- a more responsive GUI on a wider range of machines
- support for 32 bit machines
- integrated AI assistant
- a proper Split View that is easy to activate and get out of
- a better faster version of Exposé than Mission Control
- equally good virtual desktops
- up to date OpenGL that is up to 80% faster than El Capitan
- from the current leaked benchmarks it looks like Direct X 12 is twice as fast as Metal on the same hardware and according to Blizzard it supports a wider feature set
- complete admin tool set for everything from managing software and hardware RAID, setting how many CPU cores an application can use, options for display output to 10bit and over, every possible file management option users and admins need
- slightly faster normal boot
- much faster boot from hibernation file
- better support for multiple graphic cards and monitors
- more industrial level apps from companies such as Autodesk
- support for USB 3.1 gen2 out of the box
- kept up to date more often
- updates and betas are tested for much longer time before being released to the public
- better support for legacy apps and games going back many years
- faster video rendering in Premiere and After Effects
- faster CUDA drivers for Nvidia professional use
- better support for next generation displays and virtual reality
- technical support within minutes via web browser that isn't limited to just 90 days or less than a year or at extra costs

Of course some apologist is now going to try to counter the above with some ridiculous reply that could be copied and pasted straight out of some forum in 2000 when OS 9 users were trying to convince themselves they had a better system than NT. Yes, that was a thing that people were dumb enough to believe.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
Your post almost makes me want to work with Windows10 more. But then I boot it up and see that impossible cluttered UI and dysfunctional administrative tools and this urge quickly disappears
 
Jul 4, 2015
4,487
2,551
Paris
Your post almost makes me want to work with Windows10 more. But then I boot it up and see that impossible cluttered UI and dysfunctional administrative tools and this urge quickly disappears
Well, most of the engineering, banking, and CGI world who produce all these inventions, do all world's trading, and make movies use some form of cluttered or inconsistent Windows or Linux GUI and it never stopped them. The inconsistency in the interface exists because they need to support legacy applications for many years, unlike on OS X where even simple utilities or Office suite are broken by a yearly update. Try focusing on your productivity application instead instead of superficial things like 'why can't everything look the same'
 

chevalier433

macrumors 6502a
Mar 30, 2011
510
13
Your post almost makes me want to work with Windows10 more. But then I boot it up and see that impossible cluttered UI and dysfunctional administrative tools and this urge quickly disappears
Well it depends on everyone use,as video editor in I want data safety,reliability,stability and speed I don't care for transparent childish ui and emoji maybe when my daughter grow a bit enjoy it.Some guys purchase their retina iMacs to enjoy WOW,Facebook and iMessage that's ok yosemite and el cap is great I'm glad for them.What about the rest of us?As for windows I will never forget the endless nights I spent try to resolve problems in work.Im still loyal to Apple I don't know for how long.Microsoft develop version 10 about two years.Who cares for the ui?simplicity sometimes it's better.They make a screaming fast and stable os out of the box a joy to use that what matters.
 
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dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
It's no less junk than iOS 9. One has flexibility to increase storage, more choice of browser engines, and has a file manager. The other is basically a modern version of Palm OS with a shop to buy stuff.

As for Windows 10, here's the winning levels it achieves over El Capitan:

<snip>

Of course some apologist is now going to try to counter the above with some ridiculous reply that could be copied and pasted straight out of some forum in 2000 when OS 9 users were trying to convince themselves they had a better system than NT. Yes, that was a thing that people were dumb enough to believe.

A file manager in android? It's a phone!

The litmus test for any Windows release is whether you'd type your banking details into it.
 
Jul 4, 2015
4,487
2,551
Paris
A file manager in android? It's a phone!

The litmus test for any Windows release is whether you'd type your banking details into it.

Nope, Doc Emmet Brown says its a pocket supercomputer. What's the point of having separate file management for each app apart from the idea that a document might have malware? You might as well sandbox every desktop OS app too if that's the way to do it.

And I wouldn't do any online banking on any OS without a dedicated app for it. I want the bank to be responsible for security mishaps - not Apple, not MS, not Google. That's when sand boxing makes sense.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
Nope, Doc Emmet Brown says its a pocket supercomputer.

And I wouldn't do any online banking on any OS without a dedicated app for it. I want the bank to be responsible for security mishaps - not Apple, not MS, not Google.

Android is poor. You can keep arguing with yourself if you want; my point is clear.

There's layers of OS between you and the banking app/browser. As I say, would you trust Windows?
 
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Jul 4, 2015
4,487
2,551
Paris
Android is poor. You can keep arguing with yourself if you want; my point us clear.

There's layers of OS between you and the banking app/browser. As I say, would you trust Windows?

The question you're asking makes no sense. Windows or OS X? Are you saying there's been serious security issues for banking on either OS lately, that we haven't heard about? Because hackers prefer attacking companies directly these days and the only customers who tend to be affected are the ones dumb enough to click on random fake email and Facebook links. You do that and you will soon be screwed no matter which OS you use.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
The question you're asking makes no sense. Windows or OS X? Are you saying there's been serious security issues for banking on either OS lately, that we haven't heard about? Because hackers prefer attacking companies directly these days and the only customers who tend to be affected are the ones dumb enough to click on random fake email and Facebook links. You do that and you will soon be screwed no matter which OS you use.

You didn't answer the question. Answer the question and I might respond. The question is: would you type your banking details into a Windows OS? Yes or no?
 
Jul 4, 2015
4,487
2,551
Paris
You didn't answer the question. Answer the question and I might respond. The question is: would you type your banking details into a Windows OS? Yes or no?
Should be obvious from my answer I wouldn't type details into either OS (unless I had no other choices), but you only want me to give a simplistic yes or no answer so you can play some forum sleight of hand with your rehearsed follow up answers. That's really belittling to the readers here. We're just not dumb enough to fall for that.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
Should be obvious from my answer I wouldn't type details into either OS (unless I had no other choices), but you only want me to give a simplistic yes or no answer so you can play some forum sleight of hand with your rehearsed follow up answers. That's really belittling to the readers here. We're just not dumb enough to fall for that.

You think too much about the contents of these forums. That you think I've got some ulterior motive to set you up in some manner sounds a bit paranoid.

Anyway, the key is you wouldn't type your bank details into Windows shows the trust level people have with Microsoft. It's not the known issues you should fear but the unknowns, and that usually becomes apparent when it's too late and your bank account is empty.

El Cap has SIP on by default which is meant to prevent rogue device drivers from doing devious things, such as allowing keyloggersmto run. I don't think Microsoft has such advanced OS technology. I could be wrong.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
Well, most of the engineering, banking, and CGI world who produce all these inventions, do all world's trading, and make movies use some form of cluttered or inconsistent Windows or Linux GUI and it never stopped them. The inconsistency in the interface exists because they need to support legacy applications for many years, unlike on OS X where even simple utilities or Office suite are broken by a yearly update. Try focusing on your productivity application instead instead of superficial things like 'why can't everything look the same'

Well it depends on everyone use,as video editor in I want data safety,reliability,stability and speed I don't care for transparent childish ui and emoji maybe when my daughter grow a bit enjoy it.

And that is why I say that a PC with Windows is a better choice for someone that focuses on a single professional application suite, be it office or some CAD thing or Photoshop. Windows is the most popular and also the most stable system (meaning its a barebones OS that leaves its API unchanged for generations), and its not surprising that these specialised applications perform better and are in general more stable under Windows. Same goes for gaming: Windows is the major gaming platform in the PC market, and the superior GPU performance of Windows is basically due to 80% of the driver consisting of game-specific hacks which accelerate particular shaders and things like that.

I believe one should recognise their needs and choose the most appropriate tool. For professional (focused, narrow) application, Windows is superior, no questions asked. But I believe that it makes a fairly poor personal OS. As far as my needs go, my productivity applications are terminal, compilers, Xcode, a text editor, LaTeX, R, a bunch of SQL databases as well as a web browser. I do not need to deal with the crappy overengineered suites like Office, because the tools I use for my writing and data management are far superior and more convenient to use than Office can ever be (I do use Keynote for lectures, because its quick and lean). So for me OS X is the optimal platform, and 10.11 is the best one yet. Your mileage might vary.

BTW — and this is the fact, despite the Windows on paper superiority for office workers, I get many more support requests from Windows users than from Mac users.
 

Ebenezum

macrumors 6502a
Mar 31, 2015
782
260
Which doesn’t make their opinion less valid. Some friends of mine don’t know much about computers and they pretty much dependent upon the reliability of their Macs. These should just work without much hassle. Stuff that doesn’t work from the start is uninteresting or will be discarded. A friend of mine is still using Mountain Lion and asking me whether he should upgrade and the truth simply is that I know that he is probably better off when everything continues to work like it currently does. This is what Apple needs to tackle, its software should remain dependable.

I agree.

Many of my clients are using older OS X versions (mainly 10.6, 10.8 and 10.9) for these reasons, later versions either break too many software or remove useful functionality. When it works why to upgrade into something that might not work or doesn't have any real benefits for their needs?

In the national tv station I work in one Mac pro machine we upgrade to el cap email VIP contacts banished that was ****in ugly,in new moronic disk utility our raid arrays shows as untitled,when we are tried to restore back with time machine we encounter major disfuctionality.Specifically, choosing Enter Time Machine from the TM menu starts drawing the user interface for getting to the backup, but it gets about half way done, then the screen redraws back to normal—Time Machine somehow gives up and quits. So there is no no way to restore a file(barring tedious command line invocations in Terminal perhaps).We couldn't even scan a document image capture hangs and hangs.Multi-monitor setup simply not working as intended.You call these non destructive bugs?
So all our Mac Pros are in 10.8.5 and our Dell PCs workstations are upgraded to Windows 10 and works exceptionally well and faster than ever.Well done Apple and misleader Cook,keep up the good work.

I noticed problems with Time Machine on my test installation of 10.11, while I only use 1 monitor Time Machine still crashes when I try restore files. As for the Disk Utility I have no idea what Apple was thinking, if its supposed to be easy to use it fails because it shows far too much information for novice user and moving advanced options to Terminal was a bad move because its too easy to make a spelling mistake which could have drastic results.



Previously I upgraded to new OS after .3 version was released. After Yosemite and El Capitan I have run into way too many bugs and I am not seeing any worthwhile improvements for my use. El Capitan has some potential provided Apple stops removing and dumping down features left and right. I am currently planning to stay in Mavericks and wait until Apple releases a worthwhile successor. I am fairly certain I have long wait ahead of me unless Apple manages to improve 10.11 tremendously. I am not holding my breath while I am waiting for that to happen...
 

HenryDJP

Suspended
Nov 25, 2012
5,084
843
United States
It's no less junk than iOS 9. One has flexibility to increase storage, more choice of browser engines, and has a file manager. The other is basically a modern version of Palm OS with a shop to buy stuff.

As for Windows 10, here's the winning levels it achieves over El Capitan:

- a more responsive GUI on a wider range of machines
- support for 32 bit machines
- integrated AI assistant
- a proper Split View that is easy to activate and get out of
- a better faster version of Exposé than Mission Control
- equally good virtual desktops
- up to date OpenGL that is up to 80% faster than El Capitan
- from the current leaked benchmarks it looks like Direct X 12 is twice as fast as Metal on the same hardware and according to Blizzard it supports a wider feature set
- complete admin tool set for everything from managing software and hardware RAID, setting how many CPU cores an application can use, options for display output to 10bit and over, every possible file management option users and admins need
- slightly faster normal boot
- much faster boot from hibernation file
- better support for multiple graphic cards and monitors
- more industrial level apps from companies such as Autodesk
- support for USB 3.1 gen2 out of the box
- kept up to date more often
- updates and betas are tested for much longer time before being released to the public
- better support for legacy apps and games going back many years
- faster video rendering in Premiere and After Effects
- faster CUDA drivers for Nvidia professional use
- better support for next generation displays and virtual reality
- technical support within minutes via web browser that isn't limited to just 90 days or less than a year or at extra costs

Of course some apologist is now going to try to counter the above with some ridiculous reply that could be copied and pasted straight out of some forum in 2000 when OS 9 users were trying to convince themselves they had a better system than NT. Yes, that was a thing that people were dumb enough to believe.

And some here could also consider you to be a Windows apologist based on all the amazing things you wrote about W10 (while dumping on Apple's OS) as if it was nothing short of perfection. I'm sure there are Windows forums with plenty of Windows 10 customers that have their daily complaints too. It goes equally on both sides of the fence. But to use copout terms calling people "Apologists" just because they happen to be happy with Apple's OS and it works fine for them is just plain ridiculous.
 
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