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Riwam

macrumors 65816
Jan 7, 2014
1,095
244
Basel, Switzerland
El Capitan adoption rate is now estimated at 25%, one month after launch. This is very similar to Yosemite's adoption rate, which was the most successful OS X release to date. I don't see any evidence of many users getting to previous OS. You can't judge this just by looking at few posts here and there on these forums.



Which is expected given who fundamental the change is — and — which also shows that this change was bitterly needed. SIP only protects locations that are of no business to applications running in the user space (SIP or no SIP), so the issues show the extent of bugs and unsafe behaviour that currently exists. With SIP, Apple is enforcing the best practice rules, which will make computing a better experience for everyone. The initial period is always accompanied with problems. And I am quite surprised that the problems are not more severe than they are — which shows that SIP was really designed very well and that developers have adapted quickly. I never run into any substantial issue in over half the year of using 10.11

BTW, a similar story from the MS world. The permission system in Windows used to be basically non-existing. Any application could write essentially anywhere. It was a commonplace for applications to arbitrarily write to their own folder to save data, and the whole thing was a security nightmare (one of the reasons why Windows has the stigma of being insecure). Its not that Windows did not offer tools to do things properly, its just that nobody bothered. MS has eventually fixed this in Vista, which started enforcing write permissions in a manner similar to how Unix does it. It was a huge disaster initially, because most applications have stopped working. Funnily enough, this was one thing that Vista did right but it was also the primary reason why Vista is regarded as a failure. Eventually, most contemporary applications got fixed, the Windows became much more stable OS and everybody got quite impressed — this more or less coincides with the release of 7, which then suddenly became a "good" OS.

Bottomline: programmers are lazy and if you allow them to do everything, they will often choose the unsustainable, messy solution. Sometimes, best practices need to be enforced with iron hand. Apple does good for enforcing this one now.
*******
If your own experience with 10.11 is a good one, I deeply envy you but it doesn't solve the situation of all those users less lucky than you seem to be.

I am no less fan of Apple regarding hardware and software than you are.

However I have a solid machine less than 2 years old and although I bought Apple Care just to be on the safe side, until now in 1 1/2 years never needed it.
My MP 6.1 worked OK both with Mavericks and later with Yosemite.
I don't recall a single kernel panic since I have this computer.:)

Needless to say I fully respect your knowledge and endorse all the security measures you mention and all those which could be invented.
However when I upgrade after almost 3 weeks (a reasonable waiting time IMHO) to 10.11 and find soon that I must use the ON/OFF button (or pull the power supply cable) to shut down my computer, since the shut-down command doesn't work any longer,
that a restore of Yosemite trough my Time Machine backups doesn't work either,
that the so called Internet Recovery stops after forcing me to endure long waiting (and hoping) periods ending with repeated failures (and if by rare chance I would reach it,...it would offer me only Mavericks which came with my Mac)...
:oops:
well I do not see any progress in the new "SIP-compliant" OSX 10.11 that justifies so much fundamental and basic (and not light, minor and forgivable) problems.

And your remarks about Windows are not entirely true.
If MS Windows is the most dangerous OS it is not only because of the previous lack of safety measures that you mention as its cause, but because it is by far the most widely used OS in the whole world.
Why would thieves lose their time and efforts to create and spread viruses and trojan horses to attack the few percentage of computer users in the world running OSX...if their chances to get much more succesful infections, larger armies of bots and ultimately much more money are countless higher if they do it for MS Windows?

The "iron hand" of Apple you so much admire is strangling many users like myself. :(
Unless of course we downgrade to Yosemite as I did and many many others.
Should we be thankful to Apple for creating so many deeply, utterly and comprehensively "safe"... corpses?
I am not so sure...
Ed
 

Riwam

macrumors 65816
Jan 7, 2014
1,095
244
Basel, Switzerland
BTW — and this is the fact, despite the Windows on paper superiority for office workers, I get many more support requests from Windows users than from Mac users.
*******
I cannot know or say anything about the people asking for your support.
As for me, there are 2 reasons why I have not made use of my Apple Care and contacted their Support regarding my problems with the failure of installing El Capitan:
1) I still hope that after a certain number of updates (don't know how many?) it might finally work in an acceptable way and... to be honest, I do not want to bury that hope :oops:
Hopes help living...
2) I am 100% sure that at the present level (10.11.1) the support employees cannot help me :eek: and I do not want to bother them and put them in a very unpleasant "don't know" situation...with no benefit for me out of their predicament...
Ed
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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well I do not see any progress in the new "SIP-compliant" OSX 10.11 that justifies so much fundamental and basic (and not light, minor and forgivable) problems.

I am sorry that you are having issues. However, I don't see what they have to do with SIP. This sounds more like a botched installation or maybe even firmware upgrade problem. Of course inexcusable. But issues of this sort happen with every OS X upgrade and are equally present in Windows/Linux world.

I am 100% sure that at the present level (10.11.1) the support employees cannot help me :eek: and I do not want to bother them and put them in a very unpleasant "don't know" situation...with no benefit for me out of their predicament...

Try them ;) My contact with the specialised Apple support was always quite positive. Of course, you need to get past the first level of general support (these people usually indeed have very litte insight about the system), but once you get to the techies, they can remote-diagnose your system and offer some options that you might have missed.
 

Riwam

macrumors 65816
Jan 7, 2014
1,095
244
Basel, Switzerland
I am sorry that you are having issues. However, I don't see what they have to do with SIP. This sounds more like a botched installation or maybe even firmware upgrade problem. Of course inexcusable. But issues of this sort happen with every OS X upgrade and are equally present in Windows/Linux world.
********
Thank you very much for your understanding.
I never said that my problems were of SIP nature. My knowledge is not so deep to try to understand what is to be found behind the bugs.
I just report those bugs and agree with you that they should not happen.

However I have used in past years many OSX and different Windows and Linux and upgraded them when new compatible versions appeared.
I don't recall having suffered such basic, unbearable problems as from 10.10 to 10.11 just because of trying to upgrade!
No hardware changes whatsoever were made before upgrading. No failing HDs. Nothing else besides the upgrade to El Capitan alone! :oops:
That in past upgrades some software had to be updated or replaced was all I lived trough in all my past OS upgrades.
That was the normal situation to be accepted and not more than that.:rolleyes:

Until now I had never to downgrade neither in OSX nor in Windows. It's my first experience!
This time my clone drive saved my system and all the software and data.
While I always learned in the hard way how vital backups are, this is the first time I can remember that the clone drive literally saved my system and allowed me to get back to Yosemite, which had caused me zero problems.

I am no pro with money bringing customer data, just a plain home user.
Still, to have to install again all my applications, looking for serial numbers, passwords, mail accounts and user names, etc. used at the time for all those installations... would had taken me weeks! :eek:

I can only think of the old saying "never touch a running system" ;)
and add "...even if it is an Apple one"
Ed
 
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Jul 4, 2015
4,487
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Paris
And some here could also consider you to be a Windows apologist based on all the amazing things you wrote about W10 (while dumping on Apple's OS)

It's called an objective opinion and for the last 20 years that I have read such discussions there are always these forum cry babies who accuse people like me of hating on their fave toy. The list I made was plain old facts. I use both operating systems depending on the app I use and the location I'm at. That's what a true user does - they are platform agnostic and focus on the app in front of them.

Regarding 'adoption rates'. Comparing to years gone by is pointless. Microsoft constantly asks users to upgrade with a pop up. Apple manipulates people to upgrade to El Capitan if they want compatibility with iOS apps such as Notes (which could have been upgraded on Yosemite without upgrading the whole OS). It would be great if both companies just left users to make up their own minds instead of giving him them pop ups or incompatibility warnings that needn't exist in the first place. At least Windows 10 was ready for showtime. El Capitan has terrible bugs and left a number of popular app developers with no route forward except telling customers to disable SIP.
 
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n-evo

macrumors 68000
Aug 9, 2013
1,909
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Amsterdam
II found the following quote interesting:

"Software developers and users have argued that Apple's yearly release schedule and development practices have compromised stability, and meant that no version of OS X is truly recommendable for users requiring reliability above new user interface design and features.".
I find it interesting how no one seems to remember how many bugs Mac OS X Tiger had, the first release that broke the yearly cycle. Mac OS X Tiger received a record amount of eleven major updates (v10.4.0 to 10.4.11), with a few bugs being so bad Apple actually released v10.4.11 after Mac OS X Leopard went GM. For anyone that's experiencing issues with today's release, you'll probably be able to find someone else who had a similar experience during the Mac OS X Tiger, Leopard or Snow Leopard days.

As a long-time Mac user I honestly don't see the correlation between yearly release cycles and these issues as they existed before.

That said I did a clean installation of OS X El Capitan and it has been smooth sailing so far. I did experience a fair share of iCloud related issues, but I'm not blaming the OS itself for that.
 

dylin

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2010
663
52
California
It's no less junk than iOS 9. One has flexibility to increase storage, more choice of browser engines, and has a file manager. The other is basically a modern version of Palm OS with a shop to buy stuff.

As for Windows 10, here's the winning levels it achieves over El Capitan:

- a more responsive GUI on a wider range of machines
- support for 32 bit machines
- integrated AI assistant
- a proper Split View that is easy to activate and get out of
- a better faster version of Exposé than Mission Control
- equally good virtual desktops
- up to date OpenGL that is up to 80% faster than El Capitan
- from the current leaked benchmarks it looks like Direct X 12 is twice as fast as Metal on the same hardware and according to Blizzard it supports a wider feature set
- complete admin tool set for everything from managing software and hardware RAID, setting how many CPU cores an application can use, options for display output to 10bit and over, every possible file management option users and admins need
- slightly faster normal boot
- much faster boot from hibernation file
- better support for multiple graphic cards and monitors
- more industrial level apps from companies such as Autodesk
- support for USB 3.1 gen2 out of the box
- kept up to date more often
- updates and betas are tested for much longer time before being released to the public
- better support for legacy apps and games going back many years
- faster video rendering in Premiere and After Effects
- faster CUDA drivers for Nvidia professional use
- better support for next generation displays and virtual reality
- technical support within minutes via web browser that isn't limited to just 90 days or less than a year or at extra costs

Of course some apologist is now going to try to counter the above with some ridiculous reply that could be copied and pasted straight out of some forum in 2000 when OS 9 users were trying to convince themselves they had a better system than NT. Yes, that was a thing that people were dumb enough to believe.

This post dose deserve some more attention.

I have been using OSX since snow leopard and have my own Windows machine currently running Windows 7. Im not saying that either one is better, but I really do love the compatibility that I could get with Windows. It feels like Apple is really trying their hardest to created this very closed ecosystem with too many limitations.

I just hope Tim Cook doesn't turn into the Steve Balmer of Apple.
 

n-evo

macrumors 68000
Aug 9, 2013
1,909
1,731
Amsterdam
It's called an objective opinion and for the last 20 years that I have read such discussions there are always these forum cry babies who accuse people like me of hating on their fave toy. The list I made was plain old facts. I use both operating systems depending on the app I use and the location I'm at. That's what a true user does - they are platform agnostic and focus on the app in front of them.
The thing is with that list you wrote anyone can think of an equal amount of issues Windows 10 does suffer from. One way or the other, it just doesn't paint the full picture. On both operating systems your milage my vary based on what hardware and software you're using. There a lot of things Microsoft does right with Windows 10, but there are also a lot of things I hate.

You stating Windows 10 has "a better faster version of Exposé than Mission Control" per example, really isn't the experience I had. As such it doesn't constitute as fact. I've seen it stutter, lock up and I simply do not have a way to quickly access it by using a gesture (my ASUS notebook's trackpad isn't supported to that degree) like I'm able to on my MacBook Pro. Those things in themselves makes the experience worse than that on OS X El Capitan.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
New bug today that wasn't in El Crapitan yesterday. Machine won't go to sleep for more than one second and keeps waking. I'd like to fix permissions or something but Apple doesn't think we should admin our computers anymore.

Have you tried Onyx? however use with caution as it can break the system. First I would go through Console and also look at the wake ups in Terminal;

Code:
cat /var/log/system.log | grep -i "wake reason"

First of all back up :)

Q-6
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
It feels like Apple is really trying their hardest to created this very closed ecosystem with too many limitations.

I don't see tham trying to create a closed ecosystem. Macs have always been a closed ecosystem. You get a few pre-selected choices of hardware, it has never been any other way. Or am I missing something?

BTW, about the SoyCapitan's list: I had to chuckle a bit about the 'supports 32bit machines' point. No 32bit CPU was sold in years. Its really a shame that Windows still offers a 32-bit version of their OS in this day and age. And for some reason nobody seems to recall that OS X is the only OS on the market that does the 32/64bit support right: because both targets are seamlessly supported in the same OS without any emulation. For some time, OS X was even running a 32bit kernel while fully supporting 64bit applications.
 
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agaskew

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2009
416
253
El Capitan 10.11 was so bad for me, I had to roll back - never did that before. Having just migrated to El Capitan 10.11.1, I recently also decided to Install Windows 10 via Boot Camp on my 2014 rMBP (i7 2.8, 16GB Ram, 1TB SDD). I run most of the time with a couple of external monitors attached.

OS X does a better job than Windows 10 of managing multiple displays cleanly, and scaling across different sized displays is more consistent. The look and feel of Windows 10, and the odd clash of both desktop and universal apps, is a bit jarring in places.

But Windows 10 is so much faster in use - once you're logged in and working, it absolutely flies. I've also set up and run many, many Virtual Machines over the years. Each new version of Windows (non-server versions) gets progressively quicker. This I beleive is as a result of development efforts that stretch across a few years.

On the other hand, Apple pursue a path of annual upgrades to OS X and iOS, and as a result of this policy are sacrificing quality big time. Look what happened with the farce that was the iOS 8 release. Yosemite's performance was frankly terrible for me, and now here we are with another "new" OS X that tries to fix Yosemite's absolutely piss-poor performance, while also delivering basically nothing new of any note.

Microsoft are side stepping this whole "must release something new every year" mantra by shipping a constant stream of updates - with new features. Check out Gabe Aul's blog, you have someone from Microsoft actually writing about what's coming up in the previews.

The last time I had to rebuild this machine, I used the Internet recovery to download and install Mavericks, and was shocked at how smooth it was - if only the latest MS-Office didn't require Yosemite or later :( I'd go back to Mavericks without delay.

Apple's other big marketing-inspired mistake is to maintain OS X and iOS as separate environments. Since seeing first Ubuntu, then Windows, running on a phone that can be docked and become a computer, the idea that mobile and desktop operating systems need to be distinct became out of date.
 

oldmacs

macrumors 601
Sep 14, 2010
4,941
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Australia
BTW, about the SoyCapitan's list: I had to chuckle a bit about the 'supports 32bit machines' point. No 32bit CPU was sold in years. Its really a shame that Windows still offers a 32-bit version of their OS in this day and age. And for some reason nobody seems to recall that OS X is the only OS on the market that does the 32/64bit support right: because both targets are seamlessly supported in the same OS without any emulation. For some time, OS X was even running a 32bit kernel while fully supporting 64bit applications.

No but Apple was selling machines that they couldn't be bothered writing 64bit kexts for their graphics cards up until late 2008 - For example my 2008 White Macbook, which only got a paltry 3.5 years of support from Apple - its stuck on Lion. However Windows 10 runs fantastically on it. Still annoyed Apple did that and the fact that Windows can run on quite old hardware is commendable, compared to Apple making my $1800 laptop obsolete not even 4 years in.
 
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Riwam

macrumors 65816
Jan 7, 2014
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244
Basel, Switzerland
Sometimes it's the average user who is too dumb to use his pc/mac/whatever.
**************
That is the reason why anything intended not only for the few high tech specialists, for instance any current OS for normal, currently and daily used work stations, MUST be built "for dummies".
I might be one, but as in his very last song "Imagine" John Lennon said:
"I am not the only one" :)
Ed
 
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F1Mac

macrumors 65816
Feb 26, 2014
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**************
That is the reason why anything intended not only for the few high tech specialists, for instance any current OS for normal, currently and daily used work stations, MUST be built "for dummies".

It is. But you'll always have people complaining, it will never change. Last year Yosemite was too childish, now El Capitan is too complicated. Go figure.:rolleyes:
 

dylin

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2010
663
52
California
I don't see tham trying to create a closed ecosystem. Macs have always been a closed ecosystem. You get a few pre-selected choices of hardware, it has never been any other way. Or am I missing something?

BTW, about the SoyCapitan's list: I had to chuckle a bit about the 'supports 32bit machines' point. No 32bit CPU was sold in years. Its really a shame that Windows still offers a 32-bit version of their OS in this day and age. And for some reason nobody seems to recall that OS X is the only OS on the market that does the 32/64bit support right: because both targets are seamlessly supported in the same OS without any emulation. For some time, OS X was even running a 32bit kernel while fully supporting 64bit applications.

I think I chose the wrong words. I meant to say that Apple keeps taking away certain uses that made things simple enough for the user such as the raid function found in disk utility. Now I know the average user probably doesn't really care to use that feature, but it was nice to be able to make a raid setup without having to go into terminal.

Another thing that did bother me is some of the changes in UI that made me feel like I was using a brand new application, like when they changed the look of iTunes right when I was already comfortable with.

I feel like Apple just makes changes without considering how consumer feels. I mean I know they don't have to update, but I guess some changes are good while others need some work
 
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Jul 4, 2015
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Paris
No but Apple was selling machines that they couldn't be bothered writing 64bit kexts for their graphics cards up until late 2008 - For example my 2008 White Macbook, which only got a paltry 3.5 years of support from Apple - its stuck on Lion. However Windows 10 runs fantastically on it. Still annoyed Apple did that and the fact that Windows can run on quite old hardware is commendable, compared to Apple making my $1800 laptop obsolete not even 4 years in.
And that is why people shouldn't ignorantly chuckle at the idea of supporting 32bit systems. With all the environmental problems we face the last thing we should be doing is throwing perfectly usable computers into landfills.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
Some didn't care for the flat aesthetics of 10.10 hence the references to it being childish. 10.11 is really no more complex on the surface than 10.10, however looking into Console it does certainly appear to me more complex under the hood so to speak.

Much of the angst with 10.11 is due to the rushed implementation, leaving many with yet unresolved issues. I am am now look at the OS in isolation on, a spare MBA, to see exactly what its doing (within my limits) and how I can get it working on other more complex OS X systems, avoiding the previous nausea experienced with my 13" rMBP, equally until Apple delivers more point releases, I doubt much will change on that.

10.11 is also more talkative than 10.10 with more aspects of the OS "phoning home" so want to look into this deeper. Certainly 10.10 by default sends all your web searches & Spotlight searches to Apple and in some circumstances Microsoft. Personally I prefer to decide for myself in under full disclosure, not be opted in by default. I tend to believe Apple`s statements on privacy, as lets face it, if it ever surfaced that it was just BS the backlash would be significant...

Q-6
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
And that is why people shouldn't ignorantly chuckle at the idea of supporting 32bit systems. With all the environmental problems we face the last thing we should be doing is throwing perfectly usable computers into landfills.

Sure, why don't we also support the protected mode while we are at it? :rolleyes: The 2008 white MacBook is a 64-bit system btw, Apple's choice not to develop 64-bit drivers for it is a completely different issue.

Your environmental concerns are completely misplaced here. And btw, I am not throwing my computers into landfills, I recycle them. Please stop conflating multiple issues as it they were one and the same.
 

oldmacs

macrumors 601
Sep 14, 2010
4,941
7,182
Australia
Sure, why don't we also support the protected mode while we are at it? :rolleyes: The 2008 white MacBook is a 64-bit system btw, Apple's choice not to develop 64-bit drivers for it is a completely different issue.

Your environmental concerns are completely misplaced here. And btw, I am not throwing my computers into landfills, I recycle them. Please stop conflating multiple issues as it they were one and the same.

It feeds into one of the positive aspects of Windows 10 over Mac OSX.

Continuing to use older hardware is better for the environment then 1. Using energy and no being able to fully recycle every component out of a laptop then 2. using energy to make a new laptop.

I applaud Microsoft anyway for giving better legacy support than Apple - it keeps computers usable. Goodness knows a 2008 White Macbook on Lion doesn't get any security updates anymore or anything. Pretty poor imho. Not to mention how well Windows 10 runs on the 2008 White Macbook - app loading etc is almost on par with my Mid 2012 Macbook Pro with an SSD + El Capitan. Yet Apple is meant to have this great 'hardware/software' integration that no one else can match...
 
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Riwam

macrumors 65816
Jan 7, 2014
1,095
244
Basel, Switzerland
It is. But you'll always have people complaining, it will never change. Last year Yosemite was too childish, now El Capitan is too complicated. Go figure.:rolleyes:
*******
Sorry but it isn't.
As one of countless dummies and a dummy with a relatively new Mac, I followed exactly the upgrade instructions of El Capitan I received from Apple.
After roughly half an hour I had a fully upgraded Mac...which simply refused to shut down in the usual way forcing me evey time to cut power supply.
It is not a matter of simplicity vs. complication but a matter of working vs. not working. :(
There might be some few people who complain as an habitude, but most users complain when they have good reasons to do it.
I presently belong (unfortunately) to that large group of users who find no particular pleasure in complaining but see no other way to give way to their frustration...
Ed
 
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Riwam

macrumors 65816
Jan 7, 2014
1,095
244
Basel, Switzerland
No but Apple was selling machines that they couldn't be bothered writing 64bit kexts for their graphics cards up until late 2008 - For example my 2008 White Macbook, which only got a paltry 3.5 years of support from Apple - its stuck on Lion. However Windows 10 runs fantastically on it. Still annoyed Apple did that and the fact that Windows can run on quite old hardware is commendable, compared to Apple making my $1800 laptop obsolete not even 4 years in.
************
It does not belong to this thread. I am perfectly aware of it.
However, just for your information...in another thread you can find that computers like the one you mention are not doomed to remain in Lion unless wanted by the owner.
Although that should be the case according to Apple, by using the MCPF procedure I updated my early 2008 MB first to ML and finally to Mavericks.
:)
The MCPF tool also includes as an option Yosemite...but I didn't want to push too much my old MB and Mavericks runs until now with zero problems.
("Never touch a running system").
But that is, of course not something we should thank Apple, :( but thank instead the developers of MCPF, who do what they can to prolong the life and usability of old Macs :p
Ed
 
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