Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[5105973]

Have any of your neurologists/doctors had any ideas about all this? My PCP suggested trying a neuro-ophthalmologist so I'll probably start there. But hard to say if that's who I need to see.

I've only been to the opthalmologist and he had no idea other than to assure me that everything he could see of the structure of my eye was healthy.

I haven't been to my neurologist since I changed primary care doctors well before the pandemic. I have had a devil of a time getting an appointment with my primary care doctor and he's got my husband waiting two months for an appointment even though my husband is in bad shape since a virus that followed on top of Covid.

One reason I switched to this doctor in the first place was my previous doctor kept me waiting to be seen for a UTI for several weeks! But now this doc is the same way, maybe worse.

When I called the neurologist office directly about a year ago I was given a queue time of almost a year for non emergencies and her staff wanted a referral from the primary care doctor I no longer see.

Everything since the pandemic has been like this with the long waits. The only specialist I had no problem getting an appointment with was my gastroenterologist. But I'm sort of a priority patient for them, unfortunately.

I had a headache and eye strain all day because I've been on iMessage all day on my 12 Pro Max. Everyone in my family is out somewhere and have been texting me. So I got on my Samsung S23 Ultra to make this post and it's actually soothed my eye strain for a bit. But now my eyes are feeling fatigued again. However actual pain has been called away from my head. It was immediate upon using the S23 Ultra display.

But the interesting takeaway here is that changing the display initially actually stopped the pain from the iPhone 12 Pro Max display and soothed my eyes and head. In the past, changing displays would make me feel worse. If I stop posting now, I'll be able to go to bed with no headache! The eye strain is just because it's late and this display is a bit tiring. My S22 Ultra display neither fatigues my eyes nor gives me headaches. But it's on the charger at the moment.

It's fascinating how weird this all works. I wish I understood the mechanism behind all these sensations.

 

[5105973]

Whoa, I just realized I was given a wait time of a year for a neurologist well before the pandemic started. I called a couple of years ago, too. If I would have just made the appointment I'd have been seen by now! But with my responsibilities and everyone always having emergencies around here I'm always hesitant to schedule that far in advance. But I might have to.

 

[asus389]

Well alrighty then. I’m going to try to get an appointment with a new neurologist recommended by a friend of a friend. I can’t guarantee I’ll be seen this year as most of the neurologists around here have massive wait times for non emergency appointments. But I do not want another dye contrast MRI. I have lost count of how many of those I’ve had since I was in my 30’s. That dye stays in the body somehow. Or some of the ingredients do.

I’ve wondered if it would be insightful to get an EEG whilst using the offending phone screen. I had one once and it didn’t show anything, even when they flashed lights. But maybe with the phone it would? I don’t seem to have trouble with other flicker… /shrug

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

Based on your writing here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/13s22br

Is there any logic to the idea of the 15 Pro being better for some users based on the waveform looking more smooth at higher brightness, vs the less modulation but more jagged waveform of the regular 15?

Certainty and that is really a good valid point.

Firstly, we have to understand that it is inevitable that even true DC Dimming will have very subtle jagged lines within the wave, as one lowers the brightness. These very subtle jagged waves are typically not perceivable.

We'll look at Asus ROG Ally, a true dc dimming flicker free panel.

Brightness 100%

brightness 50%

Now we will look at the iPhone 15's pseudo 60 hertz sine wave

iPhone 15 reading at 50%

Right from here we can see that the below observation. While both are recorded as 60 hertz, the true DC dimming in Asus ROG Ally is using constant current reduction, while iPhone 15 is using DC-like dimming.

What you end up with is that you have a long wavelength that is stretched over a longer period of 60 hertz.

However, the same observation cannot be found in Asus ROG Ally. We do not see this long wavelength pattern on the flicker free Asus ROG Ally.

Hence this noticeable long wavelength of a mere 60 hertz will very cause symptoms for those that are sensitive.

Furthermore, iPhone 15's long wavelength are not even moving a consistent wave like any decent LED bulb ought to. Let's examine iphone 15's 100 brightness waveform again. The first peak of its 60 hertz sine wave is at 700 nits. Yet, the following peak is slightly over 700 nits. This inconsistently is what I foresee that it might cause dizziness for some. Additionally, as this is just a 60 hertz sine wave, any minor inconsistency might become even more apparent at 60 hertz.

Because that this problem exist even at 100% brightness, it carries over to brightness level 50% and issue becomes even more noticeable.

Thus in this case, it has less to do with jagged waveforms.(aka complex waveforms). Rather, it was the reason I stated above.

Hence, it was also the reason I concluded iPhone 15 plus as being the best among the 4.



The iPhone 15 pro on the other hand attempts to take another approach by using shorter wavelength, which results in a higher hertz of 480 hz with a higher modulation.

As we are now looking at 480 hertz instead of 60 hertz, this a jump of 8 times. Thus if we examine the iPhone 15 pro wave again, we do can notice that its highs are not perfectly in line either, like the iphone 15.

However, as we are looking at 480 hertz here of the Pro models, the higher hertz helps in compensating for the inconsistency as observed in the wave peaks.


What we should be concerned about the waves is the "tails" ~ Whether are the ends at the highest peak; lowest point; ~ rounded, sharp, or squared.

iPhone 15 pro 50% brightness

Here we can observe that the wave edges at the peak and lowest are sharp, hence it is very likely to cause problems for many as well. Furthermore, we are looking at a mere 480 hertz. Had this been a higher 1210 hertz panel, concerns of the sharp tailed edges should no longer be as big of a concern at this modulation.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

I’ve wondered if it would be insightful to get an EEG whilst using the offending phone screen. I had one once and it didn’t show anything, even when they flashed lights. But maybe with the phone it would? I don’t seem to have trouble with other flicker… /shrug

I will be doing a Routine EEG soon and I intend to bring in my galaxy note 8 in to trigger my seizure-like symptoms.

A criticism I have on this Routine EEG test is that it does not reflect real world scenarios. For instance, I do not get seizure-like symptoms while I am just staring blanking under a fluorescent lighting. Rather, I do get them only when I am reading something in focus up close, even like a book or a paper, for instance.

This is probably attributed to as we are reading or focusing something up close, our focus becomes heightened.

Getting me to stare blankly into a flashing light alone will be unlikely to reproduce my seizure-like symptoms.

As what I often like to bring up ~ the wolf indeed exist but the villagers falsely believed that there was no wolf.

 

[5105973]

I will be doing a Routine EEG soon and I intend to bring in my galaxy note 8 in to trigger my seizure-like symptoms.

A criticism I have on this Routine EEG test is that it does not reflect real world scenarios. For instance, I do not get seizure-like symptoms while I am just staring blanking under a fluorescent lighting. Rather, I do get them only when I am reading something in focus up close, even like a book or a paper, for instance.

This is probably attributed to as we are reading or focusing something up close, our focus becomes heightened.

Getting me to stare blankly into a flashing light alone will be unlikely to reproduce my seizure-like symptoms.

As what I often like to bring up ~ the wolf indeed exist but the villagers falsely believed that there was no wolf.

Wait, you get seizure like symptoms too? I sometimes have. My worst one was with an XS Max after watching a movie on it in the morning and then trying to read or text on it later in my kitchen which also had recessed LED lighting in the ceiling that somehow set me off in tandem with the phone display. My husband changed one of the bulbs I found most sensitizing.

I lost my ability to speak, understand what was being said to me, read and write and type. It was like a stroke but not a stroke. I also lost full coordination of left hand and some of my right if I remember correctly. The whole thing was several minutes but recovery into a functioning state was hours and my speech was slurred for several days. I also became sensitized to all OLED displays on my other Android phone for a month or two. This happened years ago so I'm a little fuzzy on duration of different symptoms.

I've had these seizures with other triggers but now fewer of those triggers work anymore. For example I was highly sensitve to soy for a few years while going through menopause but I can now eat soy products normally again. It was a gradual reintroduction.

I can't even look at lasers in a light show.

I don't have Reddit but my husband does. He said you mentioned something about a connection to TMJ and tinnitus. I have both. My TMJ bothers me less these days.

I'm sorry you suffer. I'm very grateful you stopped by to help us and educate us. I've unfortunately forgotten everything I've learned about sine waves over 40 years ago. But I'm trying to reeducate myself.

I'm going to eventually try again with an iPhone 15 or 15 Plus. My attempt to make a go with iPhone 15 Pro Max was a bust. I did notice my husband's 15 Pro Max bothered me less. My daughter has a 15 that seemed promising. I'm trying to decide to go with that or a 15 Plus. My 12 Pro Max can be used in moderation but for how much longer, I don't know. I'm on an S 23 Ultra at the moment.

 

[BigBen2493]

Wait, you get seizure like symptoms too? I sometimes have. My worst one was with an XS Max after watching a movie on it in the morning and then trying to read or text on it later in my kitchen which also had recessed LED lighting in the ceiling that somehow set me off in tandem with the phone display. My husband changed one of the bulbs I found most sensitizing.

I lost my ability to speak, understand what was being said to me, read and write and type. It was like a stroke but not a stroke. I also lost full coordination of left hand and some of my right if I remember correctly. The whole thing was several minutes but recovery into a functioning state was hours and my speech was slurred for several days. I also became sensitized to all OLED displays on my other Android phone for a month or two. This happened years ago so I'm a little fuzzy on duration of different symptoms.

I've had these seizures with other triggers but now fewer of those triggers work anymore. For example I was highly sensitve to soy for a few years while going through menopause but I can now eat soy products normally again. It was a gradual reintroduction.

I can't even look at lasers in a light show.

I don't have Reddit but my husband does. He said you mentioned something about a connection to TMJ and tinnitus. I have both. My TMJ bothers me less these days.

I'm sorry you suffer. I'm very grateful you stopped by to help us and educate us. I've unfortunately forgotten everything I've learned about sine waves over 40 years ago. But I'm trying to reeducate myself.

I'm going to eventually try again with an iPhone 15 or 15 Plus. My attempt to make a go with iPhone 15 Pro Max was a bust. I did notice my husband's 15 Pro Max bothered me less. My daughter has a 15 that seemed promising. I'm trying to decide to go with that or a 15 Plus. My 12 Pro Max can be used in moderation but for how much longer, I don't know. I'm on an S 23 Ultra at the moment.

the_top_g is recommending the 15 plus over the rest of the 15 series so should probably give that a shot next and hopefully it works out fingers crossed​

 

[jimmy_uk]

@GrumpyMom I’m still surprised the S23 Ultra works given the recorded numbers and hordes of negative comments on a Reddit about eye strain. I’m tempted to order, still waiting for a better UK price as it’s still full retailer but with free earbuds.

 

[Roadstar]

@GrumpyMom I’m still surprised the S23 Ultra works given the recorded numbers and hordes of negative comments on a Reddit about eye strain. I’m tempted to order, still waiting for a better UK price as it’s still full retailer but with free earbuds.

It's strange indeed. The PWM frequency is low on my S23+, but apparently the curve is more stable as I can use it just fine.

 

[jimmy_uk]

It's strange indeed. The PWM frequency is low on my S23+, but apparently the curve is more stable as I can use it just fine.

I've read positive comments about the S23+. Mmmmm 🤔

"At minimum brightness, the Galaxy S23+'s AMOLED panel runs at a constant 120 Hz. At first glance, this seems low, but it is easy on the eyes due to a flat amplitude curve. At brightnesses of greater than 3 percent, the frequency doubles to 240 Hz and manages to remain at a constant level. The Galaxy display's brightness control corresponds to that of an AMOLED panel with permanent DC dimming."

 

[Expos of 1969]

I've read positive comments about the S23+. Mmmmm 🤔

"At minimum brightness, the Galaxy S23+'s AMOLED panel runs at a constant 120 Hz. At first glance, this seems low, but it is easy on the eyes due to a flat amplitude curve. At brightnesses of greater than 3 percent, the frequency doubles to 240 Hz and manages to remain at a constant level. The Galaxy display's brightness control corresponds to that of an AMOLED panel with permanent DC dimming."

Do you happen to know if the regular S23 is similar?

 

[super chimp]

Yeah good idea. I’ll give it a go and see if it helps

It helped me for certain so it’s worth a try.

 

[PwmMen]

If I understand correctly, is the iPhone 15 Plus more compatible than the Pro?
So it should be according to measurements? Why do so many people tolerate the Pro better?

The Samsung S23 Ultra was very bad for me and I had eye pain directly.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Do you happen to know if the regular S23 is similar?

Notebookcheck

"Like all OLEDs, that of the S23 also flickers. This occurs at a very constant 120 Hz at minimum brightness. The luminosity increases a little (> 3%) and becomes a constant 240 Hz with a very even cycle curve. This indicates permanent DC dimming and should be easy on the eyes. No temporal dithering was detected."

 

[Expos of 1969]

Notebookcheck

"Like all OLEDs, that of the S23 also flickers. This occurs at a very constant 120 Hz at minimum brightness. The luminosity increases a little (> 3%) and becomes a constant 240 Hz with a very even cycle curve. This indicates permanent DC dimming and should be easy on the eyes. No temporal dithering was detected."

Much appreciated.

 

[DJTaurus]

Did anyone try Motorola edge plus ?

 

[Evilxardas]

Did anyone try Motorola edge plus ?

Hei DJTaurus, are you still using the iphone 15? Is still ok?

 

[kargurin]

Did anyone try Motorola edge plus ?

I've had it for almost two weeks now. Subjectively it is very comparable to new iPhones in terms of eye strain. I use it in short spurts. An hour or less in screen time daily. I got a great deal from AT&T, $10 per month for 36 months, no trade required. The problem if you get an iPhone is that, IMO, it is so well put together physically and OS, you *want* to use it ALOT. I've used Android forever. There is no novelty here for me so it's no big deal for me to put it down. I don't want to spend $1K on a phone I won't use alot.

 

[Mr.Simple]

DxOMark has tested the display of the iPhone 15 Pro Max and measured a PWM frequency of 240 Hz:

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max Display test

The Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max closely resembles its predecessor, sharing the fourth spot with the 14 Pro Max in our Display database.

www.dxomark.com

 

[5105973]

My first S23 Ultra bothered my eyes but I noticed my husband's didn't. I noticed that my panel had a bad off axis color shift. You really had to look at it from a very limited angle for it to be white. So I attempted to return it. It's a long story but it got stolen somewhere along the way to Samsung.

I bought a new one from Amazon and it was better. It's not as comfortable as the panel on my S22 Ultra but it is serviceable. My S22 Ultra is fully comfortable.

 

[Abiyork]

Have any of your neurologists/doctors had any ideas about all this? My PCP suggested trying a neuro-ophthalmologist so I'll probably start there. But hard to say if that's who I need to see.

Well alrighty then. I’m going to try to get an appointment with a new neurologist recommended by a friend of a friend. I can’t guarantee I’ll be seen this year as most of the neurologists around here have massive wait times for non emergency appointments. But I do not want another dye contrast MRI. I have lost count of how many of those I’ve had since I was in my 30’s. That dye stays in the body somehow. Or some of the ingredients do.

I have been under the care of a neurologist for 2.5 years since the Iphone 12 pro caused me to have a rare condition called NDPH. I used the phone for nearly 3 weeks before I realised the cause.

The NHS were useless and the wait times to see a neuro were ridiculous (not to mention my nearest NHS nuero wasn't specialist in headaches and I could only initially be referred to my local one).

Due to the pain I paid to go private.

He referred me to himself on the NHS to allow MRI's, CT scans, X-Rays and eye scans etc without further cost. They all came back clear to remove any serious brain injury concerns etc.

He was very interested to hear about my story and has no doubt my new phone was the trigger. Lightbulbs, monitors etc are all factors in increasing specialist headaches or chronic migraine conditions being diagnosed.

2.5 years later and I still have the pain (If pain goes beyond 2 years this often means you have it for life). I take a cocktail of 3 drugs at the moment to keep it manageable to allow me to continue my normal day to day life. I have just learnt to deal with the pain.

I have had time off work, breakdowns as prescription drugs effected my mental health and hormone levels. One drug gave me memory loss and I wasn't in a fit state to drive.

I have tried propanolol, indometacin, topiramate, amitryptaline, noritrptaline, candesartan as prophylaxis drugs. I then take Naproxen, sumatryptin and Frovatriptan as pain relief when it breaks through.

Next month my next treatment will probably begin. Either 40 botox injections into my scalp on a monthly basis or trying a relatively new drug on the market called CPRG which will be posted to me in a refrigerated box for me to inject at home.

Annoying how we can't have the latest phone but I would happily go back to my trusty Nokia 3310 if it meant my condition went away.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

Wait, you get seizure like symptoms too? I sometimes have. My worst one was with an XS Max after watching a movie on it in the morning and then trying to read or text on it later in my kitchen which also had recessed LED lighting in the ceiling that somehow set me off in tandem with the phone display. My husband changed one of the bulbs I found most sensitizing.

I lost my ability to speak, understand what was being said to me, read and write and type. It was like a stroke but not a stroke. I also lost full coordination of left hand and some of my right if I remember correctly. The whole thing was several minutes but recovery into a functioning state was hours and my speech was slurred for several days. I also became sensitized to all OLED displays on my other Android phone for a month or two. This happened years ago so I'm a little fuzzy on duration of different symptoms.

I've had these seizures with other triggers but now fewer of those triggers work anymore. For example I was highly sensitve to soy for a few years while going through menopause but I can now eat soy products normally again. It was a gradual reintroduction.

I can't even look at lasers in a light show.

I don't have Reddit but my husband does. He said you mentioned something about a connection to TMJ and tinnitus. I have both. My TMJ bothers me less these days.

I'm sorry you suffer. I'm very grateful you stopped by to help us and educate us. I've unfortunately forgotten everything I've learned about sine waves over 40 years ago. But I'm trying to reeducate myself.

I'm going to eventually try again with an iPhone 15 or 15 Plus. My attempt to make a go with iPhone 15 Pro Max was a bust. I did notice my husband's 15 Pro Max bothered me less. My daughter has a 15 that seemed promising. I'm trying to decide to go with that or a 15 Plus. My 12 Pro Max can be used in moderation but for how much longer, I don't know. I'm on an S 23 Ultra at the moment.

Yes I do have. The symptoms which you have brought up I do have experienced, along with the tourette symptoms-like repetitive muscle jerks.

For lasers shows, I do struggle with them too. It's less likely because they flicker (since their flicker hertz is at 250,000 hertz, unless they deliberating strobe for visual effects) but because they form shapes that trigger my migraine, with these kind of patterns below

It seems that this particular pattern is somehow creating somekind of visual stress, like the image below(credits to a redditor that shared to me)

Spoiler: warning: may cause headache and discomfort

I think I have a good idea who your husband was on reddit. Do help me to thank him for finding my information helpful!

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

DxOMark has tested the display of the iPhone 15 Pro Max and measured a PWM frequency of 240 Hz:

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max Display test

The Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max closely resembles its predecessor, sharing the fourth spot with the 14 Pro Max in our Display database.

www.dxomark.com

That was the 2x stacked 240 hertz I have mentioned before from the Opple flicker meter readings!

Except that DxOMark has interpreted it as 240 hertz. I guess that works as well.

 

[DJTaurus]

Hei DJTaurus, are you still using the iphone 15? Is still ok?

I sold it on day 2. Now I am on my second day of 12 pro (not the max) and it’s the most comfortable OLED iPhone i ve used since X.

 

[Evilxardas]

I sold it on day 2. Now I am on my second day of 12 pro (not the max) and it’s the most comfortable OLED iPhone i ve used since X.

I am stuck with the iphone X ios 14.X too! Are you using the 12 pro with ios 17?