GOODBYE, APPLE.

[ixxx69]

I've been using Windows daily since W3.1... it's not that Windows has gotten that much better (since 2K/XP/7 - take your pick), it's that Apple has gotten so much worse in the last 5 years... they are doing almost everything now that I don't like about Windows, while everyone else has been cribbing the good parts from Apple design.

SDAVE's comments indicate so little understanding that they're not worth the dog pile and could have just been ignored. Windows, on the design application front, has been as or more robust than OS X for 15 years. What made Macs special were the slick hardware and the little touches to the software that made OS X a pleasure to use in comparison.

However, most of that, especially on the software side, has gone by the wayside over the last few years. There are dozens of examples of this, but just one that happened as I was writing this - on previous OS X, by default you can right-click on any word in any app and look up the definition... I literally upgraded to Sierra on this Mac last night... just tried to look up a word as I always have and it would only give a wikipedia article. So I spent 10 minutes googling trying to figure out why. I then went to the Dictionary app and it said I had to download a dictionary to use it... after which, its now behaving as it previously did. This is the sort of **** I expect on a Windows computer, not a Mac.

Speaking of which, after installing Sierra, it had a bunch of setup screens with pre-checked boxes that I flipped through rather quickly and forgot about the new 2-step Apple ID verification, which I didn't want, but too late - had to go through the whole process, and then disable it and another new password... again that's the sort of **** I expect from Microsoft, not Apple. Same deal on every computer upgraded.

How about the updates they now pester you with... I don't want to update to the latest OS on day one because it's always a buggy freaking mess... but Apple now shoves these updates down our throats with little recourse other than to click ignore until tomorrow... which is a freaking PITA when you maintain 3 macs and 4 iOS devices.

iTunes?... a freaking disaster. Apple Maps? Freaking disaster. Siri? Lagging behind everyone else. iWork = iShit. Every freaking Apple app just gets worse and worse - Photos, Messages, even their calendar app is a POS... I'm the "tech support guy" for my family and friends and it's the same across the board - no one actually knows how to use their Macs or iOS devices anymore... and I just shrug. I don't know why your iPhone keeps asking for your Apple ID password every day. I don't know why you suddenly have to authenticate your iPhone every time you want to download photos to your Mac the way you've been doing for several years. I'm sure we could all bore each other with dozens of examples of super basic stuff being a challenge in areas where Apple used to excel... it was those little touches that separated Apple from the rest.

I go back with Apple to the early '80s, but what started me back on the Apple path (after a serious falling out) was the original iPod Nano - the iPod was freaking amazing not only because of what it could do, but because I felt like I'd been using it all my life after using it for 5 minutes. Now I can't even find my own music on my iPhone half the time.

The last few keynotes have been utter embarrassments of both superficiality (and even technical ineptness)... and they just get worse and worse. Last week, they all just looked like they were rolling through the motions, the walking dead shell-shocked by the vastly superior Microsoft presentation the day before.

Apple is so freaking lost. Here's a question... how much would you pay to have an afternoon alone with Tim Cook and relevant VPs just to yell/belittle/beg/lecture/explain/share? (and no, no bodily harm is allowed!).

 

[flat five]

How about the updates they now pester you with... I don't want to update to the latest OS on day one because it's always a buggy freaking mess... but Apple now shoves these updates down our throats with little recourse other than to click ignore until tomorrow... which is a freaking PITA when you maintain 3 macs and 4 iOS devices.

System prefs -> App Store

you can control how the updating (and subsequent notifications) are handled:

 

[pat500000]

I've been driving while listening to this on my iphone. Love the background music.

 

[flat five]

I didn't say I disliked the touch bar but I don't consider it revolutionary since assigning tasks, short cuts, macros is old news so this then is evolutionary.
As for a touch pad style laptop from Mac, if anyone is familiar with OWC, they used to front for a company or group that converted Mac laptops to touch screen. Again, this is nothing new.

if you have a touch screen on the main display then you're recreating the same problem i attempted to outline with the mouse/icons except now with your hands/keyboard.. you're requiring the user to move their hands away from the keyboard in order to touch icons then return to their position..

it's not solving any problems.. it's not speeding things up.. it's just making people work differently with no increase in comfort nor productivity and again, it's potentially adding to required moves which not only makes a lateral change, it actually worsens the problem.

While using my rMBP, I keep m dock hidden to help maximize screen real estate. There is zero reason why another bar couldn't as well pop up and have a one to one correspondence with a key on the keyboard and each, per a given app that is in the fore front. Again - nothing new here as this notion has been done with Apple when "folders" are used to hold Apps on the dock. Instead of folders with apps, one could call up a macro or routine that is oriented towards a given application. Then again, there have been mice, trackballs and more with additional buttons that correspond to functions, controls and more for certain apps (such as Photoshop which worked with my trackball). OR if you are like me and and are left handed, you can use a trackball/mouse or touch pad with your right hand and use your left hand with a stylus to gain more control of both the art and palettes...and all of this is not revolutionary but another way to skin the proverbial cat. Using modern tech is merely evolutionary.

i use one of the most customizable applications i've ever seen on mac (Rhinoceros3D).. it supports all of what you're talking about above..

for example, here's a partial view of my 58 macros/aliases in said app:


here's the mouse prefs:


i use screen edges to do exactly what your idea is about sliding out panels which have buttons/tabs/etc.. i have a six button mouse all of which are programed to custom navigation macros.. all of the counterpoints you're trying to argue me with are things i use every single day.. i'm not exaggerating.. the problem is, you're talking from a position where it's pretty obvious that you don't actually practice what you preach.. in which case, it'd be better if you stop and listen to someone who does instead of trying to tell them about things you 'think'.. but that just doesn't happen around these parts.. enjoy your gripe fest. tata

 

[ixxx69]

System prefs -> App Store...

Ayhhh, F5, I know you mean well, but sometimes you can be so exasperating.

And about the touch screens vs. touch bars - there's no right or wrong about what's best, etc., but Apple has dropped the ball on this, no ifs, ands or buts. They've doubled-down on no touch screens, and that's just stupid. I understand if Apple doesn't feel the technology is good enough at the price point they want to achieve, but they just sound like dumbasses when they dismiss it altogether.

10 years from now, practically EVERY screen will be a touch screen. Any screen that doesn't accept touch input will seem dated. Probably at least once a week I reach out to my display to try and touch something on the screen because I've gotten so used to interacting with an iPhone and iPad daily.

 

[flat five]

Ayhhh, F5, I know you mean well, but sometimes you can be so exasperating.

heh, i was just trying to be helpful.. if you're annoyed by the 'remind me tomorrow' thing then you can turn it off.. that's what my point was.

we could argue about what the default settings should be but that's all we'd be arguing about because the options for either behavior are in the OS..
i think apple chose the defaults according to what's going to be most secure and easiest to update.. if you want less security or manually check for updates then you can do that.. people who are more in the know about using computers may want this but at the same time, they're the ones who will be more likely to know how to make the pref changes.. the people who are less likely to know how to do this are at least not duped into feeling more secure in a less secure environment.
idk, i'd pretty much agree with how apple has the default prefs setup in these cases.

And about the touch screens vs. touch bars - there's no right or wrong about what's best, etc., but Apple has dropped the ball on this, no ifs, ands or buts. They've doubled-down on no touch screens, and that's just stupid. I understand if Apple doesn't feel the technology is good enough at the price point they want to achieve, but they just sound like dumbasses when they dismiss it altogether.

10 years from now, practically EVERY screen will be a touch screen. Any screen that doesn't accept touch input will seem dated. Probably at least once a week I reach out to my display to try and touch something on the screen because I've gotten so used to interacting with an iPhone and iPad daily.

hmm, i think apple is at the forefront of touch as they're the ones who brought it to the masses with the iPod onwards..
i also agree with them that you can't just put an iPhone like interface on a traditional desktop environment and have it scale equally.. it works with the iPhone because the screen is already in your hand where your fingers naturally are.. your fingers aren't naturally on a flat panel display of a laptop/desktop which is a very good reason to seek alternative methods to bringing touch to macOS.

i just don't understand how youre saying apple is dismissive of touch screens or doubled down on no-touch screens when it's completely obvious they just made a touch screen interface for macOS in the form of the touch bar (or whatever they're calling it).. that's exactly what that thing is, right? a touch screen.. context aware screen that changes depending on tasks at hand and allows finger tip control in the exact fashion as an iPhone does.. while not requiring the user to move their hands away from the position they naturally fall in while using a laptop.
??

 

[phrehdd]

if you have a touch screen on the main display then you're recreating the same problem i attempted to outline with the mouse/icons except now with your hands/keyboard.. you're requiring the user to move their hands away from the keyboard in order to touch icons then return to their position..

it's not solving any problems.. it's not speeding things up.. it's just making people work differently with no increase in comfort nor productivity and again, it's potentially adding to required moves which not only makes a lateral change, it actually worsens the problem.


i use one of the most customizable applications i've ever seen on mac (Rhinoceros3D).. it supports all of what you're talking about above..

for example, here's a partial view of my 58 macros/aliases in said app:
View attachment 669222

here's the mouse prefs:
View attachment 669223

i use screen edges to do exactly what your idea is about sliding out panels which have buttons/tabs/etc.. i have a six button mouse all of which are programed to custom navigation macros.. all of the counterpoints you're trying to argue me with are things i use every single day.. i'm not exaggerating.. the problem is, you're talking from a position where it's pretty obvious that you don't actually practice what you preach.. in which case, it'd be better if you stop and listen to someone who does instead of trying to tell them about things you 'think'.. but that just doesn't happen around these parts.. enjoy your gripe fest. tata

You were doing so well until your last paragraph and in particular the last couple of sentences. I gather the best part of your style is your hit'n'run' "tata."

No milk and cookies for your less than complete analysis.

 

[flat five]

You were doing so well until your last paragraph and in particular the last couple of sentences. I gather the best part of your style is your hit'n'run' "tata."

No milk and cookies for your less than complete analysis.

well i can continue on in a less snobbish manner except i've been here long enough to know it's a waste of effort.
it's a fight forum.. nothing else.. it's not a place for sharing ideas and/or methods for improved productivity..
it's apple vs not-apple.
choose a side and stick to it no matter what.

 

[0388631]

What concerns do you have with Windows?
[doublepost=1477842061][/doublepost]
I'm not sure what you're attempting to say with this post because, as Aiden said, both vendors produce laptops which accommodate 64GB of memory. However if you want to step back from 64GB you'll find plenty more support 32GB of memory...twice that of the MacBook Pro.

I was stating that the XPS doesn't. It goes to a 32 GB limit, or did when I was looking into a new laptop last year and decided to forgo it. I know there are laptops that go to 64 GB under a Windows environment, but in my findings, these are usually higher end workstations that aren't exactly light and portable, but carry a punch the MBP would only dream of delivering. The Zbook 15 is rather a good system to configure. If one needs something in the Mac Pro realm, the Zbook 17 is phenomenal. It'll support a 3->3.9 Ghz Xeon processor combined with 64 GB of RAM aiding a Quadro M5000M. Though it goes without saying that such a build would in excess of $5,000. At which point, it makes sense to build a desktop workstation.

 

[JimGoshorn]

However, most of that, especially on the software side, has gone by the wayside over the last few years

MacPerformanceGuide has articles discussing Apple Core Rot which point out all the issues Lloyd has had with Apple's software.

I can't help but wonder what issues might happen when Apple introduces it's new file system (APFS) across all it's platforms

 

[phrehdd]

I was stating that the XPS doesn't. It goes to a 32 GB limit, or did when I was looking into a new laptop last year and decided to forgo it. I know there are laptops that go to 64 GB under a Windows environment, but in my findings, these are usually higher end workstations that aren't exactly light and portable, but carry a punch the MBP would only dream of delivering. The Zbook 15 is rather a good system to configure. If one needs something in the Mac Pro realm, the Zbook 17 is phenomenal. It'll support a 3->3.9 Ghz Xeon processor combined with 64 GB of RAM aiding a Quadro M5000M. Though it goes without saying that such a build would in excess of $5,000. At which point, it makes sense to build a desktop workstation.

I am unsure what folks continue to believe that people prefer "light weight' over a higher end laptop. I would gladly have a less thin and heavier laptop if the guts were that much better. I would gladly go double the thickness of my rMBP for 32-64 gigs of RAM, better processor and GPU AND have accessibility to upgrade internally. Please do understand that the rMBP is a good looking laptop and comfortable to use but this look and comfort (form) should not be put before function which seems to be common with many Apple products.

 

[0388631]

I am unsure what folks continue to believe that people prefer "light weight' over a higher end laptop. I would gladly have a less thin and heavier laptop if the guts were that much better. I would gladly go double the thickness of my rMBP for 32-64 gigs of RAM, better processor and GPU AND have accessibility to upgrade internally. Please do understand that the rMBP is a good looking laptop and comfortable to use but this look and comfort (form) should not be put before function which seems to be common with many Apple products.

I'm not sure why you seem to be implying that I believe the MBP is a superior machine when it's more form than function. I had plans on buying a MBP, my first in eight years because I wanted to get back into the OSX environment, but to spend the money for a specced out machine that'll only last 3-4 years is insane. This isn't the case with a workstation laptop. I've got a perfectly good aluminum laptop from Samsung I bought two years ago with an upgrade to a quad i7, good RAM and fast large drive. Sadly, Samsung have taken Apple's lead and gone the way of soldering anything they can. HP as well. I believe professionals looking for mobile solutions would find the Zbook series of workstations quite good. I believe their IPS DreamColor also support sRGB, Rec. 709, Rec. 601, Adobe RGB, DCI-P3 emulation, and full gamut. Possibly more as those were the options in 2013.

The days of Apple providing a pro hardware laptop are long gone.

 

[phrehdd]

I'm not sure why you seem to be implying that I believe the MBP is a superior machine when it's more form than function. I had plans on buying a MBP, my first in eight years because I wanted to get back into the OSX environment, but to spend the money for a specced out machine that'll only last 3-4 years is insane. This isn't the case with a workstation laptop. I've got a perfectly good aluminum laptop from Samsung I bought two years ago with an upgrade to a quad i7, good RAM and fast large drive. Sadly, Samsung have taken Apple's lead and gone the way of soldering anything they can. HP as well. I believe professionals looking for mobile solutions would find the Zbook series of workstations quite good. I believe their IPS DreamColor also support sRGB, Rec. 709, Rec. 601, Adobe RGB, DCI-P3 emulation, and full gamut. Possibly more as those were the options in 2013.

The days of Apple providing a pro hardware laptop are long gone.

Zenithal, I believe you misconstrued what I posted. There error is mine (I apologize) if my post appeared to imply anything about you. I was making a more general comment about Apple itself and its design vs what some of us (myself included) would prefer with respect to function over form. - The glad trade off of more power at the cost of looks and thinness. When I said 'people' I was speaking in generalities.

 

[0388631]

Zenithal, I believe you misconstrued what I posted. There error is mine (I apologize) if my post appeared to imply anything about you. I was making a more general comment about Apple itself and its design vs what some of us (myself included) would prefer with respect to function over form. - The glad trade off of more power at the cost of looks and thinness. When I said 'people' I was speaking in generalities.

No need to apologize. In any case, I do agree with your and others' observations. The thinness movement has not only compromised usability but the availability of performance hardware. Apple's claims of a 9 hour battery life often mean 65% brightness and word processing, light browsing and such. I sincerely doubt one could watch Netflix or encode 720p video for 9 hours straight. Suffice to say, that claimed battery time is also in regard to a new, 100% health battery pack configuration. I suspect over time, mainly by not following proper recharging protocol, battery health will drop considerably over a 2 year period.
[doublepost=1477866577][/doublepost]To add, another member said it best Thursday evening. Many years ago during the Sandy Bridge era, it was said 8 GB of RAM would suffice in all computing devices. And that no single individual will use that much RAM. That was a long time ago in computing standard and human life. I would state the bare minimum these days is 16 GB. With more and more software coming out at 64 bit only and browsers evolving to 64 bit, the need and thirst for memory brings better raw performance and is most welcome. Current mainstream desktops using the Z97 chipset are capable of addressing up to 64 GB of memory. Xyz-E has moved from 64 GB to 128 GB. I believe we'll soon be in the computing age where the more the ram, the better the experience, and we can drop the "you don't need much RAM" argument, that's been around for a few decades.

 

[SDAVE]

I doubt it is as simple as that. Microsoft def did some kind of rescue act for the mac ( I think that's the reason Office was ported to the mac as part of the deal ) and maybe allowing bootcamp allowed apple to sell workstation class towers for people who needed both mac and windows. All this was at a time when the oMPs could compete with the dells, the Hps in workstation performance.

Many people just forget how good the oMPs were for people who used 3D DCC apps.

The nMP was a blunder proper, designing themselves into a corner.

No, it was pretty simple, actually.

Apple released Bootcamp without "support". Lots of people, including me, liked having Windows on their cheesegrater Mac Pros in 2008 and 2006 and so on. Because that meant we could use Windows only applications on a Mac.

Writing drivers for Windows is not up to Microsoft. What Apple did had nothing to do with a Microsoft partnership.

 

[SDAVE]

What concerns do you have with Windows?

Garbage-tier font management
Ugly UI
Ugly desktop
Ugly start menu/tile/taskbar with garbage-tier Arial as a system font.
Explorer is ugly and not as intuitive as macOS
Terrible keyboard shortcut system for Explorer
Dozens of unneeded services running for no reason
DLL hell
NTFS
Drivers needed for everything
Software leaves registry keys even if removed
Registry
Spyware/Data Mining
Forced OS updates every 2-3 days
Need to always run anti-virus
Malware magnet
OS-to-OS updates are TERRIBLE
No good backup solution like Time Machine
Have to constantly keep up with it or else it becomes unstable and bloated
No elegant solution like expose
Window animations are terrible/half baked
No sandboxing whatsoever (I prefer Unix based systems, but obviously macOS is the most popular one with software available that I have to use daily)
And Microsoft is just a shady company in general with shoddy 3rd rate customer support.

Can't put lipstick on a pig.

Do I need to go on?

FYI: I have a dual boot beast of a machine (cough) Hackintosh + Windows 10. I cannot use Windows for any type of work. I only use it for VR and VR dev and Gaming with the GTX1080 (incredible card btw). I never have time for "gaming" but when I do, that is the only time I use Windows.

99% of the time I'm in macOS, and also carry a rMBP around for mobile work. And yes I've owned both PCs and Macs since the 90s, working on both along side each other, so this isn't a biased point of view.

An OS is supposed to be pleasant to work in, especially for people in the arts, we're not all engineers here.

 

[jeff7117]

Garbage-tier font management
Ugly UI
Ugly desktop
Ugly start menu/tile/taskbar with garbage-tier Arial as a system font.
Explorer is ugly and not as intuitive as macOS
Terrible keyboard shortcut system for Explorer
Dozens of unneeded services running for no reason
DLL hell
NTFS
Drivers needed for everything
Software leaves registry keys even if removed
Registry
Spyware/Data Mining
Forced OS updates every 2-3 days
Need to always run anti-virus
Malware magnet
OS-to-OS updates are TERRIBLE
No good backup solution like Time Machine
Have to constantly keep up with it or else it becomes unstable and bloated
No elegant solution like expose
Window animations are terrible/half baked
No sandboxing whatsoever (I prefer Unix based systems, but obviously macOS is the most popular one with software available that I have to use daily)
And Microsoft is just a shady company in general with shoddy 3rd rate customer support.

Can't put lipstick on a pig.

Do I need to go on?

FYI: I have a dual boot beast of a machine (cough) Hackintosh + Windows 10. I cannot use Windows for any type of work. I only use it for VR and VR dev and Gaming with the GTX1080 (incredible card btw). I never have time for "gaming" but when I do, that is the only time I use Windows.

99% of the time I'm in macOS, and also carry a rMBP around for mobile work. And yes I've owned both PCs and Macs since the 90s, working on both along side each other, so this isn't a biased point of view.

An OS is supposed to be pleasant to work in, especially for people in the arts, we're not all engineers here.

The life of a windows user. I agree, it sucks pretty bad to use their OS. If you want choices in hardware these days, this is a good list of crap you have to deal with.

OS X = have a fantastic experience in a great OS on pre-selected hardware that you can't really upgrade.

Windows = have a huge list of painful OS **** to deal with on a daily basis but can configure any system you want.

Is the tradeoff worth it? For some of us, the lack of Nvidia on OS X is the deciding factor. That was a choice Apple made for us unfortunately.

 

[ITguy2016]

Garbage-tier font management
Ugly UI
Ugly desktop
Ugly start menu/tile/taskbar with garbage-tier Arial as a system font.
Explorer is ugly and not as intuitive as macOS
Terrible keyboard shortcut system for Explorer
Dozens of unneeded services running for no reason
DLL hell
NTFS
Drivers needed for everything
Software leaves registry keys even if removed
Registry
Spyware/Data Mining
Forced OS updates every 2-3 days
Need to always run anti-virus
Malware magnet
OS-to-OS updates are TERRIBLE
No good backup solution like Time Machine
Have to constantly keep up with it or else it becomes unstable and bloated
No elegant solution like expose
Window animations are terrible/half baked
No sandboxing whatsoever (I prefer Unix based systems, but obviously macOS is the most popular one with software available that I have to use daily)
And Microsoft is just a shady company in general with shoddy 3rd rate customer support.

Can't put lipstick on a pig.

Do I need to go on?

FYI: I have a dual boot beast of a machine (cough) Hackintosh + Windows 10. I cannot use Windows for any type of work. I only use it for VR and VR dev and Gaming with the GTX1080 (incredible card btw). I never have time for "gaming" but when I do, that is the only time I use Windows.

99% of the time I'm in macOS, and also carry a rMBP around for mobile work. And yes I've owned both PCs and Macs since the 90s, working on both along side each other, so this isn't a biased point of view.

An OS is supposed to be pleasant to work in, especially for people in the arts, we're not all engineers here.

It sounds to me a much of that is personal preference (for instance anything that you consider ugly is personal preference).

Your comment of using PCs since the 90s was obvious from your list. Things like DLL hell, registry, bloat all trace their origins back to the 90s. They're really not issues today but most people haven't updated their anti-Windows arguments since then.

 

[iMcLovin]

It sounds to me a much of that is personal preference (for instance anything that you consider ugly is personal preference).

Your comment of using PCs since the 90s was obvious from your list. Things like DLL hell, registry, bloat all trace their origins back to the 90s. They're really not issues today but most people haven't updated their anti-Windows arguments since then.

my thought exactly. I just installed win on a freshly built pc. Installed Win10 without having to install a single driver myself. no system drivers were missing, and I only installed Nvidia drivers myself since I wanted the latest, but it isnt nescessary either. SO dont understand this problem. Virus, adware and spyware not an issue either. Only way you get viruses is if you deliberately install crap ware yourself. and personally I just use Windows integrated Defender, something you dont notice and keep your machine safe. I never have any problems.
Regitry, well software you install on Macs as well do keep certain registry files on the machine too....and its not suppose to slow down the machine with registry files anyway. Dont understand this problem. And, like you say, rest of the complaints are purely taste. Personally I dont think WIn10 is much uglier than Mac OS, both looks good. ...Denial is a wonderful thing

 

[koyoot]

my thought exactly. I just installed win on a freshly built pc. Installed Win10 without having to install a single driver myself. no system drivers were missing, and I only installed Nvidia drivers myself since I wanted the latest, but it isnt nescessary either. SO dont understand this problem. Virus, adware and spyware not an issue either. Only way you get viruses is if you deliberately install crap ware yourself. and personally I just use Windows integrated Defender, something you dont notice and keep your machine safe. I never have any problems.
Regitry, well software you install on Macs as well do keep certain registry files on the machine too....and its not suppose to slow down the machine with registry files anyway. Dont understand this problem. And, like you say, rest of the complaints are purely taste. Personally I dont think WIn10 is much uglier than Mac OS, both looks good. ...Denial is a wonderful thing

It sounds to me a much of that is personal preference (for instance anything that you consider ugly is personal preference).

Your comment of using PCs since the 90s was obvious from your list. Things like DLL hell, registry, bloat all trace their origins back to the 90s. They're really not issues today but most people haven't updated their anti-Windows arguments since then.

What everyone here fail to see is that all of you argue about your personal preferences. For one person the bad thing on one platform will be the good thing for other person.

You can argue about this to your death, and neither will be right or wrong.

So then again. Make choices based on your preferences. If you complain so much about Apple, stop changing it. Change yourself. This is not to you strictly. This is to everyone.

 

[tuxon86]

All OS are converging these days. They all borrow heavilly from each other.
Most of SDave list are either personnal preference not based on any thecnical merits or just too silly.
Saying that NTFS is a negative when HPFS is an unreliable mess... Never had to repair permission on windows... ever...
Or saying that on windows you need a driver for everything... Guess what, on OSX you need too! How the hell do you think your kernel is interacting with your hardware? Yea, it does it via drivers. The only difference is that you're a slave to the whims of the Apple gods for them to debug them and release new one when needed.

The rest of the list is too silly to adress point by point.

 

[srminton]

The base 13" crap model is still about £500 more than the old 13" model. Bloody hell apple. Time for a Surface Book.

the new MBP is a completely different laptop to the SurfaceBook in terms of focus and features and power etc., so this comment makes no sense to me. The valid, rational argument for a SurfaceBook is either (a) you prefer Windows or (b) you want a detachable touchscreen to combine tablet and laptop in one device. Both are valid choices which Apple is not meeting, but neither of those arguments have anything to do with the base 13" MBP model, which is cheaper than a SurfaceBook and aimed at people who want a keyboard-focused laptop for less $ than the new touchbar model (which is also aimed at people who use keyboard/trackpad input for everything, and for whom a touchscreen laptop is of no interest). Personally I think it's great that we have choices - you want a touchscreen or detachable screen, you can get a SurfaceBook. You want the best traditional laptop in the sleekest form factor and which really focuses on the keyboard and trackpad for input, you get the new MBP. I guess the only problem is if you really prefer macOS and want a touchscreen, in which case you're out of luck, but your comment doesn't address any of that - it seems to suggest that the bottom of the range MBP is a direct alternative to a hybrid laptop-tablet device.

 

[ITguy2016]

What everyone here fail to see is that all of you argue about your personal preferences. For one person the bad thing on one platform will be the good thing for other person.

Perhaps it was you who failed to see the following in the statement of mine you quoted:

"It sounds to me a much of that is personal preference..."

You can argue about this to your death, and neither will be right or wrong.

So then again. Make choices based on your preferences. If you complain so much about Apple, stop changing it. Change yourself. This is not to you strictly. This is to everyone.

Notice I made no attempt to argue anything person preference related. If he feels Windows is ugly so be it.
[doublepost=1477919439][/doublepost]

All OS are converging these days. They all borrow heavilly from each other

Did anyone else notice the new iOS 10 keyboard sounds at least in the Messages and Notes apps, sound exactly like those used on Windows Phone?

Most of SDave list are either personnal preference not based on any thecnical merits or just too silly.
Saying that NTFS is a negative when HPFS is an unreliable mess... Never had to repair permission on windows... ever...
Or saying that on windows you need a driver for everything... Guess what, on OSX you need too! How the hell do you think your kernel is interacting with your hardware? Yea, it does it via drivers. The only difference is that you're a slave to the whims of the Apple gods for them to debug them and release new one when needed.

The rest of the list is too silly to adress point by point.

Agreed and it's the reason I didn't bother to do so.

 

[JimGoshorn]

I think some of this discussion goes to one thing that Mac users don't think about (I sure didn't): how much of the lower level stuff is handled by Apple. We take for granted that you plug it in, turn it on and work. Microsoft (for better or worse depending on viewpoint) pulls back the curtain and let's the user see (and modify) much of the settings for the OS and computer. I freely admit that I am a bit intimidated by this revelation but if you do your research, take it one step at a time and act responsibly (don't go messing where you shouldn't) it isn't as bad as it appears to be initially. If you can look at Windows impartially, you will discover how much of it shares features with MacOS, just in modified ways and in different places.

 

[ITguy2016]

I think some of this discussion goes to one thing that Mac users don't think about (I sure didn't): how much of the lower level stuff is handled by Apple. We take for granted that you plug it in, turn it on and work. Microsoft (for better or worse depending on viewpoint) pulls back the curtain and let's the user see (and modify) much of the settings for the OS and computer. I freely admit that I am a bit intimidated by this revelation but if you do your research, take it one step at a time and act responsibly (don't go messing where you shouldn't) it isn't as bad as it appears to be initially. If you can look at Windows impartially, you will discover how much of it shares features with MacOS, just in modified ways and in different places.

This applies equally as well to Windows systems. Buy a Windows system, plug it in, turn it on, and get to work.

Regarding drivers. The need for drivers in Windows is no different than the need for drivers in OS X. I suspect a lot of Mac users don't deal with drivers because they tend to stick with Apple products with drivers included with the OS. For those products which do not have an included driver one has to be installed just as in Windows. The "issue" is probably more visible in Windows due to the huge number of products which can be used with Windows. It would be impossible for Microsoft to deliver them all with the OS. There are generic ones which can be used or you can use the device specific ones provided by the manufacturer.

All in all setting up a Windows system is not difficult (though some vendors seem to go out of their way to make it more difficult than it needs to be). Once set up they tend to run without issue unless one is constantly making changes.