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iOS 12 and planned obsolescence
- Thread starter _Refurbished_
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Fine, then why are you arguing with people that think otherwise?
You hate Apple, and you hate even more people that like Apple products because their experience is positive.
@I7guy @Radon87000
I guess this is what we call two people watching different movies on the same screen. We are looking at the same evidence, but drawing differing conclusions from them, and I don’t there is really any convincing one another until Tim Cook testifies under oath or some internal document from Apple is leaked confirmed likewise.
Either way, I do hope that iOS 12 isnt just a one-off thing, and that the performance gains can be sustained in subsequent iOS updates.
I guess this is what we call two people watching different movies on the same screen. We are looking at the same evidence, but drawing differing conclusions from them, and I don’t there is really any convincing one another until Tim Cook testifies under oath or some internal document from Apple is leaked confirmed likewise.
Either way, I do hope that iOS 12 isnt just a one-off thing, and that the performance gains can be sustained in subsequent iOS updates.
What I don't understand is why you look at the evidence and draw positive conclusions
1. Apple knew about Touch Disease before shipping iPhone 6 and they shipped it anyway despite knowing it would fail when out of warranty and the user would have to buy a new phone.
2. Apple shipped a throttle in an update for defective batteries rather than informing the customer that the reason for the slowdown was a defect and it would need a replacement. They decided to slow it down and by this incident they definitively proved that they don't care about slowing down a phone as long as it meets their agenda. When a phone slows down, and its expected to slow down due to pre conceived notions people buy a new one.
3. These grand 200% improvements didn't come out of thin air. The device was always capable of the performance on iOS 8. It was capable of pulling up the keyboard without a 2 second delay. It was capable of opening the settings menu without a 2 second white screen. It was capable of opening Safari without a 3 second white screen. Apple took that performance from the device since iOS 8 and made it slower and slower and gave back that performance on 12 which was a fallout of that battery fiasco they were caught in.
You are never going to get Tim Cook to come out and outright say they are intentionally slowing user devices. The closest they did come to saying that was in Throttlegate and Touch Disease in both cases it was found the slowdown and forced obsolescence was intentional. With Touch Disease, they shipped the phone with an expiry date pasted on top and didn't give a ****. And they had the gall to charge customers on top of that for repairs. From past experience, the out of warranty repair prices for screen replacements are so high it's simply better to just buy a newer phone.
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You can try and avoid planned obsolescence by buying from companies who don't do this but you won't get the exact product with the specific features you wanted.
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If this happens I will agree, Apple has learnt from its mistakes and stopped planned obsolescence.
1. Apple knew about Touch Disease before shipping iPhone 6 and they shipped it anyway despite knowing it would fail when out of warranty and the user would have to buy a new phone.
2. Apple shipped a throttle in an update for defective batteries rather than informing the customer that the reason for the slowdown was a defect and it would need a replacement. They decided to slow it down and by this incident they definitively proved that they don't care about slowing down a phone as long as it meets their agenda. When a phone slows down, and its expected to slow down due to pre conceived notions people buy a new one.
3. These grand 200% improvements didn't come out of thin air. The device was always capable of the performance on iOS 8. It was capable of pulling up the keyboard without a 2 second delay. It was capable of opening the settings menu without a 2 second white screen. It was capable of opening Safari without a 3 second white screen. Apple took that performance from the device since iOS 8 and made it slower and slower and gave back that performance on 12 which was a fallout of that battery fiasco they were caught in.
You are never going to get Tim Cook to come out and outright say they are intentionally slowing user devices. The closest they did come to saying that was in Throttlegate and Touch Disease in both cases it was found the slowdown and forced obsolescence was intentional. With Touch Disease, they shipped the phone with an expiry date pasted on top and didn't give a ****. And they had the gall to charge customers on top of that for repairs. From past experience, the out of warranty repair prices for screen replacements are so high it's simply better to just buy a newer phone.
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No I don't. What gave you that conclusion? Planned Obsolescence? There's other companies than Apple who engage in planned obsolescence(nvidia,Logitech etc) but I am forced to buy their products because they have no competition in the segment I am looking for. I do detest their business practices though, not their products. Apple makes extremely good tablets and phones(as long as you don't update them). The software is where I despise their business practices.
You can try and avoid planned obsolescence by buying from companies who don't do this but you won't get the exact product with the specific features you wanted.
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If this happens I will agree, Apple has learnt from its mistakes and stopped planned obsolescence.
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Apple doesn’t engage in planed obsolescence. AT ALL.
That’s why you see many engineers with Mac’s.
Absolutely no evidence.
Yeah, that makes total sense, Tim Cook is going to say bad things about his company, even though they are false, just because you want it... /s
Will Google say that they sell user information to anyone with a $1 for advertising?
They didn't say that.
Untrue, and every thing as an expiry date.
If it's a manufacturing defect, they will fix it for free.
Sure thing.
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There was no touch disease only the meme of touch disease. There was a real shocker in that a larger, thinner phone might be easier damaged than a smaller, thicker phone when put in the back-pocket. There's your meme of touch disease.
Apple did was android is afraid to do. Power manage the phone when the battery is on the fritz. This started in 10.3.3. They had a software management solution in ios 11 a few months later. Communication should have been better, but it can't be proven there was a malicious intent behind it all.
If you watched the WWDC, it is clear apple is re-optimizing code in the bowels of the operating system and has "less to do with bloat", as people commonly assume. My devices never exhibited what your devices did, and it goes with the various reports of performance across multiple devices multiple years.
Having Tim Cook admit malicious intent is the only acceptable proof. Otherwise your "facts" can be countered at every turn.
How could apple stop something they never started?
I cannot believe some of you are saying devices aren't slowed down by iOS updates. It's unbelievable. Use an iPod Touch 5G on iOS 6 and another one on iOS 9. Use an iPhone 4s on the same versions. Use an iPhone 5 on iOS 6 and one on iOS 10. Use an iPad 3/iPad 2 on iOS 6/4, and then one in their latest versions. Use them. Then tell me, without laughing while saying it (meaning, without using irony) that they aren't slower. Please. I cannot believe you affirm that so conclusively. It's not hyperbolic. Just... Use them. Please.
You can disagree and think that Apple doesn't do it on purpose (I say I don't know) and that's a solid argument. But that no slowdown and/or performance issues exist at all? My apologies, but you are factually wrong.
You can disagree and think that Apple doesn't do it on purpose (I say I don't know) and that's a solid argument. But that no slowdown and/or performance issues exist at all? My apologies, but you are factually wrong.
Don't you know?
Having your phone "randomly" turn off in your pocket (like many older Android phones) is much better than "the Apps don't load as fast"!
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That's your problem.
Compare it to a similar Android or Windows Phone device running equivalent OS versions.
iOS 12 is not the first time that iOS updates are recognized has having a better performance, even by the liars and Android fanboys at the press.
E.g. iOS 10.3, where APFS was introduced.
And those liars "argued" that was nothing to do with the more advanced and surely faster filesystem (that's now multithread vs single threaded HFS+), but that Apple only just "shortened animations", which is BS (they have taken that because a disgruntled ex-exployee made that up).
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What do you mean it's my problem?
What other companies do is irrelevant. I care about Apple.
Some might have better performance, but the end result is always negative (i.e, taking a device in its original version and the same device in its last.)
In software development, things get more bloated and more difficult to maintain when more features are added. There’s no conspiracy and this is the nature of software development.
What’s ironic is that people complain about Apple not supporting iPhones long enough and switch to Android when Android phones lose support within 1yr.
It's your problem if you don't believe we believe in what we say.
Don't know what you're trying to say, can you rephrase?
BTW, is there any Android device out there, from your example (Use an iPod Touch 5G on iOS 6 and another one on iOS 9) where we can use in similar situations (OS versions 3 years apart)?
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Making the system run faster and more reliable, giving users more free space for free.
Of course the tech media IGNORED the facts built through strong Apple engineering and just shouted "it's faster animations".
It's not I don't believe you believe in what you say, it's that I cannot understand that you claim the performance is the same on newer iOS updates.
What I am trying to say, is that the end result of iOS updates regarding performance is always negative (i.e, iOS 9 on some device might be faster than iOS 8, but there will be an update that will decrease performance in the future - iOS 10, 11, etc).
I won’t say they are entirely positive conclusions. Apple is a big company now and I suppose it’s inevitable now that their actions and responses start to resemble one. I just disagree that it’s indicative of forced obsolescence.
I agree that was a dickish and dishonest move, but that’s separate from forced obsolescence.
I have already detailed earlier on why I felt Apple’s decision to throttle their phones was justified in the greater scheme of things.
Ask someone if they would be willing to give up iOS 11 multitasking on their iPad for less bloat. Not everyone might be willing to make the sacrifice. I know for one that I found the new multitasking interface very useful and would have happily accepted some device slowdown just for this feature alone.
This slowdown was the result of a decision to keep cramming in new features into their phones, not a deliberate and malicious attempt to slow down your devices.
Which was dishonest and I make no excuses for them.
Nevertheless, I maintain that this is separate from forced obsolescence.
Not the point I was trying to make at all...
Apple constantly walks a thin line between introducing more features to add to the functionality of their devices vs maintaining their performance. I just hope that they have found a happy middle ground between implementing enough new features every year to keep their users happy while ensuring their devices continue to run smoothly.
You are obviously not an engineer. At least I hope not. When it comes to mechanical design, lifespan is ALWAYS a factor and built into the equation. There is no such thing as a “forever” or “until it just breaks” in these.
There is a difference between knowing the approximate lifespan and engineering in a specific lifespan.
Let me give you an easy example: TouchID will work for X number of cycles. The estimated use span of the device is Y. Therefore the X must meet or exceed usage during Y. That is designed and built in. Just one of many in a device like this.
And btw - cost is lord and master of these calculations.
The only absolute I'm asking for is your stance on something, which you should be able to give. Your reply (above) is the very definition of what's known as a "weasel worded answer". (See an explanation here: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Weasel_word)
The statement you "agree" to, is vague to the point of being meaningless. It's like saying: "I agree that some people, at some times, may perceive what they believe to be something, but may not."
What you're actually doing is trying to obfuscate your own stance. The only reason you would want to do this, that I can see, is so that you can't be pinned down, and so always take a contradictory point of view, whenever it suits you. Let's end that, and make it clear.
You're clearly saying that you don't believe older devices are slowed down by installing newer versions of iOS. And just to be absolutely clear: Yes, I'm talking about ALL devices (of the same type).
Radeon and myself are saying that ALL devices (of the same type) suffer the same experience. This is logical because all devices of the same type have the same hardware inside them, and will be running the same OS on them. I'm also removing any question of personal perception. I'm not asking if people consciously perceive the slowness, I'm only interested in slowness that can be measured.
When you look at it like this, you can see how meaningless your statement is: You believe that running iOS on the same hardware produces different results. Very odd and illogical for a piece of computing, especially one with no moving parts.
I can readily provide a video of an older iOS device running newer iOS software slowly. Just ask and I'll upload it for you. If I produce that video, it would be up to you to provide a video showing the same device, running the same version of iOS, not exhibiting the same *measurable* slowness.
If you can't, then you're just sharing your opinion, which is the one thing we seem to agree on: Opinions here are meaningless.
I never said you'd claimed to make the sure argument as I7guy, I was just wondering where your stance was on the question I asked him. (Which, ironically, makes your comment a straw man argument, btw.)
I'll ask again: Do you believe that iOS devices are slowed down by installing newer versions of iOS on them? (Again, to clarify, I'm talking about all devices of the same type.)
Again, I'm just wondering. I'm not accusing you of anything.
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I agree with you that there's a balance that Apple are striving to make between new features, support, and performance. That said, I can't ignore that older devices continue to get slower with each version of iOS. This may have been an unfortunate side effect of Apple pushing new features head of user experience, and it may have not been a deliberate attempt at forcing people to upgrade, but here's the thing:
It's unlikely that anyone will ever prove that Apple actively engages in "planned obsolescence". It just isn't something that's really provable without a smoking gun. But, deliberate or not, calculated or not, the net result for the user is the same. Apple is completely aware of how each update will affect the performance of each device, and they release it anyway. They are ultimately responsible for their actions.
So whether it's deliberate or not is a pointless argument, but that doesn't mean Apple shouldn't be held responsible for their actions. Right?
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My weasel worded answer was in response to your weasel worded question. You should be able to ask a straightforward question without any absolutes.
I am saying that the same devices have different outcomes with respect to performance across various iOS releases because performance is not an absolute.
the 5s, 6s, 7, 8 iOS were not slowed down by newer releases(in my view of what constitutes performance) The 6 is a special case and should have been released with 2gb memory. The general answer to that poorly worded original question is no.
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There's no point discussing performance as it is perceived. Better to stick to things that can be measured, so there's less argument and room for opinion. As a previous owner of a 5S, I can absolutely confirm that my device slowed down, but you shouldn't take my word for it:
A YouTube video can’t be measured as it’s anecdotal and subject to human discrepancies. The benchmarks between iOS 8 and iOS 9 can be measured and I’ve posted it previously. The under the hood performance improvements in iOS 10 can be discussed in a meaningful way.
But this post completes the circle just one more time. As in going around in. I did notice you didn’t quote the first part of my reply(no need to repeat it)
Simple.
Because just read this forum.
Apple focuses iOS12 on optimization rather than a shitton of new toys, people complain that it's nothing other than iOS11.5. If Apple decided to NOT release iOS12 this year, people would complain.
See how many people complain that the UI has been the same for several releases. They want a UI change just because.
See how many people complained that the iPhones 6, 6S, 7, 7S and 8 had the same look and form factor.
My advice is to end the conversation, it will go nowhere.
It has gone nowhere as long as I’ve been a member. If Apple did what people claim, they would be bankrupt.
But when they shipped a product with a defect, they knew once the product broke down people would get a new iPhone. Instead of fixing the issue they shipped it anyway and this was after they tried saving costs on the underfill. The fact they skimp on components and don't give much thought to the product's expected life shows its a type of hardware planned obsolescence. Their internal testing showed defective batteries on the 6,6s, and 7 which they quietly fixed on the 8 but instead of fixing it via notification they slowed it down.
In every case Apple knows the device is going to break down or is going to slow down and they resort to underhanded Trojan horse tactics or doing nothing instead of resorting to better solutions. If an iOS version is going to slow down a device, the least I should do is to give the user a way back to better performance.
Again this features vs performance is very subjective as people like me will always prefer more performance to less. I haven't upgraded my 2nd gen iPad Pro to iOS 11 because I fear I will lose the silky smooth interface and a week worth of battery life if I upgrade.
I have no issues with cramming features but to lock in the phones on an iOS version is unacceptable as it downgrades the user experience and the only way out is a newer phone.
Apple at the end of the day is a business. If they kept optimising for older devices, no one would upgrade, hence the current state of affairs. It not as much malice as it is a singular focus on profit maximisation at any cost. If cramming features slows down the older devices, no point spending time and cost fixing it as theres a chance these users will upgrade to a newer phone.
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Most definitely. Having the phone turn off in my pocket is much better than a snail phone. Want to know why? I bought a phone costing $1000. I can afford to fix it. Instead of subjecting me to a horrendous experience, either issue me a notificiation on my phone about a problem or let the phone turn off unexpectedly. I will go to the store, pay their service fee and get it fixed. That's how it goes. Imagine how it would be if instead of the GPU just dying on me, it throttled to half speed and here I am tearing my hair out on why the latest driver has destroyed performance. If it dies, I will go for an RMA.
But of course Apple knows $100-200>$1000 hence the solution resorted to was a slower phone
Gladly. FYI the last I used my Nexus, it was on Android 4.4 (an outdated Android version) and my iPhone was on iOS 10. The insecure Android destroyed the iPhone in speed every time whereas on iOS 8 it was the exact opposite but there is no way back.
We are not talking about synthetic benchmarks. We are talking real world usage. Compare iOS 8 and iOS 10 on an iPhone 6 and see where that APFS takes you
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Then please explain the enormous difference in speed between iOS 8 and iOS 11. What game changing feature was added which merited a keyboard which struggles to catch up to input and a 2 second wait time on the Settings screen.
What does Mac have to do with planned obsolsence. In any case, Mac is dead. Apple is about iOS
They did. They knew about Touch DIsease
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/05/24/apple-knew-about-bendgate-and-touch-disease/
They intentionally shipped a throttle in the iOS 10 update
My Nexus 5 from 2013 is still alive and kicking and on an outdated Android version from years and ago. If we don't enter a race for cramming features so as to slow the device down to a crawl, these devices can last for a decade at the very least
Apple is charging customers to fix Touch Disease which is a manufacturing defect
There is a widespread belief that all electronics slow down over time so Apple will have no issue retaining customers with PO.
The reason they focused on older devices was because their software and reputation was getting a bad name because of Throttlegate and people were starting to think Apple was intentionally slowing their phones down which is why this singular focus on performance in iOS 12
Please stop this hyperbole about Android. Almost all Android flagships get OS updates for 2 years minimum and in the case of the Pixel 3 years. On Android, half of the stuff is updated through the play store so OS updates aren't as relevant on Android as on iOS. For instance almost the entirety of the iOS 11 update could be crammed into the Play Store by Google and reach 100% adoption.
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Nope. If exploding phones didn't bankrupt Samsung, Apple with their mindshare doesn't have anything to worry about with PO.
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Yes. Apple is held to a different standard. Not only did power management seemingly not affect sales, but Apple has been on a roll since the iPhone 6, proof positive people don’t care about some of the same things discussed in these forums.
Benchmarks are no less valuable than the synthetic and serial YouTube app opening and closing videos. You’re own videos as anecdotal as they were showed little difference between iOS 7 and iOS 11. Again, proof positive Apple does not slow down iPhones across iOS releases.
As old devices, I’m still using my iPad 2, which is eminently usable and my iPhone 4 (admittedly as an iPod), but still 8 years of service.