iOS 12 and planned obsolescence

[JohnnyW2K1]

As in the claims that planned obsolescence is in fact in play and all these various things are proof of it? A good part of this thread and many other previous ones about this kind of thing deal with that. Are we somehow overlooking large repeated parts of these discussions all of a sudden? I mean after many long threads and about 40 pages of this one (so far) I guess that wouldn't be all that surprising.

Seems you’re lagging behind the conversation, or just willing ignoring/distorting(?) parts of it to suit your beliefs.
[doublepost=1531920164][/doublepost]

As a wise man once said

If you let someone die, are you still guilty of their murder even if they didn’t die at your hands? Can you lie by omission?

Both of these things are YES.

Being indifferent is still a choice, with motives behind it.

Everyone has already acknowledged a million times that we’ll never know for sure, so who do you keep bringing it up like it’s a new point??

 

[C DM]

I do not know the difference between a conspiracy and conspiracy theory. They seem the same to me. A quick google search also didn't show up any results.

Are we seriously trying to discuss differences between something when something as basic as a difference between the word and concept of an actual "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theory" isn't known is just blatantly being ignored and misused? I mean how can a discussion even take place about the nuances of it if there's no basic understanding of the actual simple concepts are involved. I mean there's silly, and then there's that.
[doublepost=1531922053][/doublepost]

I will rephrase. Apple isnt maliciously conspiring. When I say planned obsolescence I mean they push out updates knowing full well how the phone currently runs. As the phone slows down people get new ones. It's planned in the sense they already know the impact of the update but push it anyway. They knew the impact of throttlegate but they pushed it anyway. They knew the impact of Touch Disease but shipped the phone anyway.

So basically you don't actually mean planned obsolescence. (Given the whole "conpriacy" vs. "conspiracy theory" discussion, it almost sounds like this might all be stemming from a similar misuse of it all.)

 

[JagdTiger]

Are you replying to me? If so my point is that

I am really enjoying this thread with Popcorn. Maybe a little less as some of the members are on my ignore list as they add very little to the topic.

cheese popcorn or plain
[doublepost=1531924642][/doublepost]

I do not know the difference between a conspiracy and conspiracy theory. They seem the same to me. A quick google search also didn't show up any results.

I will rephrase. Apple isnt maliciously conspiring. When I say planned obsolescence I mean they push out updates knowing full well how the phone currently runs. As the phone slows down people get new ones. It's planned in the sense they already know the impact of the update but push it anyway. They knew the impact of throttlegate but they pushed it anyway. They knew the impact of Touch Disease but shipped the phone anyway.

A conspiracy is to conspire when no one else is around, for example: A conspiracy is (good conspiracy as opposed to a bad conspiracy) when near Christmas two or more people are conspiring to get a gift when the person(s) are not around...the conspiracy of a “new world order” and “one world religion” is a bad and not good conspiracy.

 

[C DM]

Seems you’re lagging behind the conversation, or just willing ignoring/distorting(?) parts of it to suit your beliefs.

What does any of that have to do with what I mentioned? Seems like just another attempt to deflect.
[doublepost=1531921092][/doublepost]

Being indifferent is still a choice, with motives behind it.

But even if it's an actual choice--rather than just being more of an indirect side-effect--it still doesn't say much about the motive, let alone that the motive is actually one of a malicious conspiracy.[doublepost=1531921092][/doublepost]

Everyone has already acknowledged a million times that we’ll never know for sure, so who do you keep bringing it up like it’s a new point??

Perhaps because that isn't actually the case and some in fact have not only not acknowledged that but keep on claiming the opposite.

 

[FeliApple]

What does any of that have to do with what I mentioned? Seems like just another attempt to deflect.
[doublepost=1531921092][/doublepost]But even if it's an actual choice--rather than just being more of an indirect side-effect--it still doesn't say much about the motive, let alone that the motive is actually one of a malicious conspiracy.[doublepost=1531921092][/doublepost]
Perhaps because that isn't actually the case and some in fact have not only not acknowledged that but keep on claiming the opposite.

Deflecting? Seriously?
Answer the question: Are iOS devices slowed down - regardless of Apple's intentionality - by iOS updates?
[doublepost=1531936607][/doublepost]

“Slow and laggy” on iOS 11? People were still waiting on the proofs of the videos that never showed anything out of the ordinary. The opposite of rabid fanboism is in this thread, rabid irrationality and may have already sunk into the depths of mediocrity. What is construed as proof is a low bar these days.

I posted a few videos comparing iOS 6 on an iPhone 4s vs iOS 9 on an iPod Touch 5G. Clearly iOS 6 was much faster.
[doublepost=1531936801][/doublepost]We're still revolving around the wording. The wording might have been wrong - I have been over this already, Apple will never clarify, we will never have a definitive answer. At this point, the intentionality cannot be determined - but the slowness on newer iOS updates in older devices cannot be denied.
The fact that we are still arguing about the wording says something.

 

[C DM]

Deflecting? Seriously?
Answer the question: Are iOS devices slowed down - regardless of Apple's intentionality - by iOS updates?

What does that have to do with what I've been commenting on?

At this point, the intentionality cannot be determined - but the slowness on newer iOS updates in older devices cannot be denied.
The fact that we are still arguing about the wording says something.

But that is what this thread and various other ones like it have been and are about, it's right in the very title even: "planned obsolescence". That is something that has a particular meaning attached to it that relates in particular to motive. These types of threads aren't about the "what" aspect of it, but the "why", even though they end up meandering all over essentially.

 

[FFR]

Deflecting? Seriously?
Answer the question: Are iOS devices slowed down - regardless of Apple's intentionality - by iOS updates?
[doublepost=1531936607][/doublepost]
I posted a few videos comparing iOS 6 on an iPhone 4s vs iOS 9 on an iPod Touch 5G. Clearly iOS 6 was much faster.
[doublepost=1531936801][/doublepost]We're still revolving around the wording. The wording might have been wrong - I have been over this already, Apple will never clarify, we will never have a definitive answer. At this point, the intentionality cannot be determined - but the slowness on newer iOS updates in older devices cannot be denied.
The fact that we are still arguing about the wording says something.

What device are you currently using?

 

[FeliApple]

What does that have to do with what I've been commenting on?
But that is what this thread and various other ones like it have been and are about, it's right in the very title even: "planned obsolescence". That is something that has a particular meaning attached to it that relates in particular to motive. These types of threads aren't about the "what" aspect of it, but the "why", even though they end up meandering all over essentially.

Same answer and no reply to my question. Ok. I have addressed everything you've said.
I will - again - link to my reply. There I answer your enquiry.
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/26247117/
Also: The "what" is as important as the "why".
[doublepost=1531939022][/doublepost]

What device are you currently using?

A 9.7 iPad Pro, an iPhone 6s, and an iPod Touch 5G.

 

[C DM]

Also: The "what" is as important as the "why".

While the "what" can have significance and might be what some want to discuss, the "why" is what speaks to the intention and motive, which is what actually ties to the concept of a malicious conspiracy like "planned obsolescence". Without that there is no way to say, let alone prove that that's what it actually is--that is at the very foundation of it all and the very thing that I've been commenting on and discussing, as has been mentioned before.

 

[FeliApple]

While the "what" can have significance and might be what some want to discuss, the "why" is what speaks to the intention and motive, which is what actually ties to the concept of a malicious conspiracy like "planned obsolescence". Without that there is no way to say, let alone prove that that's what it actually is--that is at the very foundation of it all and the very thing that I've been commenting on and discussing, as has been mentioned before.

Check the reply I linked. There you have your answer.

 

[C DM]

Check the reply I linked. There you have your answer.

I have checked it before. It seems like when it comes to the aspect of it all that I've been commenting on you seem to be in agreement. So I'm not really sure why things in relation to that keep on being questioned.

 

[FFR]

Same answer and no reply to my question. Ok. I have addressed everything you've said.
I will - again - link to my reply. There I answer your enquiry.
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/26247117/
Also: The "what" is as important as the "why".
[doublepost=1531939022][/doublepost]
A 9.7 iPad Pro, an iPhone 6s, and an iPod Touch 5G.

Are you going to be replacing your phone or iPad in the next two years?

 

[Michael Goff]

As has been posted before Apple will never come out and explicitly admit they were slowing down older devices with updates. Apple piles update upon update on older devices not caring for one minute how the user experience is on it. I for one do not believe that no one at Apple HQ used iOS 8-11 on an iPhone 6 and did not notice the degradation in performance and was still approving updates. The iPhone 6 should never have gotten iOS 11 as also the Air 2. The fact they do not offer a downgrade option is the last straw.

Multiple reviews have noticed the dramatic improvement in performance in iOS 12 on these phones. This indicates Apple knew what was wrong with them all these years as the statistics they are quoting of a 200% increase in performance in is simply impossible to achieve if they were optimising for older devices all along. They were not optimising purely out of business considerations.

I suggest you watch/listen to some of the WWDC videos to see what they did. Then you might be talking from a place of knowledge.

 

[I7guy]

Deflecting? Seriously?
Answer the question: Are iOS devices slowed down - regardless of Apple's intentionality - by iOS updates?
[doublepost=1531936607][/doublepost]
I posted a few videos comparing iOS 6 on an iPhone 4s vs iOS 9 on an iPod Touch 5G. Clearly iOS 6 was much faster.
[doublepost=1531936801][/doublepost]We're still revolving around the wording. The wording might have been wrong - I have been over this already, Apple will never clarify, we will never have a definitive answer. At this point, the intentionality cannot be determined - but the slowness on newer iOS updates in older devices cannot be denied.
The fact that we are still arguing about the wording says something.

Absolutely, on devices that are 7 years old. That is not the normal use case. I’m referring to the videos showing where an iohone 7 on iOS 10 “destroyed” an iPhone 7 on iOS 11.

 

[FeliApple]

I have checked it before. It seems like when it comes to the aspect of it all that I've been commenting on you seem to be in agreement. So I'm not really sure why things in relation to that keep on being questioned.

You want an Apple admission. That's the only proof you will accept. That will not happen. Why does Apple do it, that's what you're interested in discussing? There's the possibility of many answers here. As I said in the linked reply: Maybe Apple doesn't want to devote enough resources/time to optimizing iOS for older devices. Maybe Apple doesn't care and it just shatters devices knowingly as it knows that may result in new devices being bought. Maybe Apple doesn't think this is an issue, because people still update (that would be burying their head in the sand: many people update because they are relentlessly nagged. Many people update because they have to restore and Apple allows no option. Many people update for Security purposes).
Now, if Apple trusts in their updates so much, why don't they allow downgrading? If the customer satisfaction is around 95% - according to Apple in their keynote - for iOS 11, I repeat, why don't they allow downgrading, if that means only a potential - and negligible - 5% will go back?
You wanted to discuss the "why" aspect, let's discuss it, then.
[doublepost=1531941246][/doublepost]

Absolutely, on devices that are 7 years old. That is not the normal use case. I’m referring to the videos showing where an iohone 7 on iOS 10 “destroyed” an iPhone 7 on iOS 11.

But that's what matters. Who cares if an iPhone 8 is 0.1s slower? Almost nobody. I care, and I wouldn't even notice unless comparing them side by side. I care about older devices being shattered. Not necessarily 7 years old. The 6+ and 6 are awful on iOS 11. Even more the 6+, I tried one a few days ago. A three year old (the iPhone 6+ was launched in 2014 and iOS 11 was launched in 2017) device was severely crippled by an iOS update.
The 6s is slower on iOS 11, noticeably slower, but not unusable.

 

[C DM]

You want an Apple admission. That's the only proof you will accept. That will not happen. Why does Apple do it, that's what you're interested in discussing? There's the possibility of many answers here. As I said in the linked reply: Maybe Apple doesn't want to devote enough resources/time to optimizing iOS for older devices. Maybe Apple doesn't care and it just shatters devices knowingly as it knows that may result in new devices being bought. Maybe Apple doesn't think this is an issue, because people still update (that would be burying their head in the sand: many people update because they are relentlessly nagged. Many people update because they have to restore and Apple allows no option. Many people update for Security purposes).
Now, if Apple trusts in their updates so much, why don't they allow downgrading? If the customer satisfaction is around 95% - according to Apple in their keynote - for iOS 11, I repeat, why don't they allow downgrading, if that means only a potential - and negligible - 5% will go back?
You wanted to discuss the "why" aspect, let's discuss it, then.

I'm simply commenting in relation to statements that are saying that planned obsolescence clearly exists for sure, it's basically a given, and that it's proven essentially. That isn't the case. And that's essentially what I've been pointing out and what you appear to agree with.

 

[FeliApple]

Are you going to be replacing your phone or iPad in the next two years?

I don't know, but they are on iOS 9. Flawlessly working. Why?

 

[I7guy]

You want an Apple admission. That's the only proof you will accept. That will not happen. Why does Apple do it, that's what you're interested in discussing? There's the possibility of many answers here. As I said in the linked reply: Maybe Apple doesn't want to devote enough resources/time to optimizing iOS for older devices. Maybe Apple doesn't care and it just shatters devices knowingly as it knows that may result in new devices being bought. Maybe Apple doesn't think this is an issue, because people still update (that would be burying their head in the sand: many people update because they are relentlessly nagged. Many people update because they have to restore and Apple allows no option. Many people update for Security purposes).
Now, if Apple trusts in their updates so much, why don't they allow downgrading? If the customer satisfaction is around 95% - according to Apple in their keynote - for iOS 11, I repeat, why don't they allow downgrading, if that means only a potential - and negligible - 5% will go back?
You wanted to discuss the "why" aspect, let's discuss it, then.
[doublepost=1531941246][/doublepost]
But that's what matters. Who cares if an iPhone 8 is 0.1s slower? Almost nobody. I care, and I wouldn't even notice unless comparing them side by side. I care about older devices being shattered. Not necessarily 7 years old. The 6+ and 6 are awful on iOS 11. Even more the 6+, I tried one a few days ago. A three year old (the iPhone 6+ was launched in 2014 and iOS 11 was launched in 2017) device was severely crippled by an iOS update.
The 6s is slower on iOS 11, noticeably slower, but not unusable.

Do you have proof, other than anecdotal, that a 6s on 11.4.1 is noticeably slower than a 6s on iOS 10.3.3?

 

[FeliApple]

I'm simply commenting in relation to statements that are saying that planned obsolescence clearly exists for sure, it's basically a given, and that it's proven essentially. That isn't the case. And that's essentially what I've been pointing out and what you appear to agree with.

If you are sticking with that, then yes. I already acknowledged your point. All I'm saying is that Apple is at fault regarding some things that can be considered forced - planned? I don't know - obsolescence. If you refuse to tackle that on the basis that what I said isn't the main point of the thread, then we have nothing else to discuss.

 

[FFR]

I don't know, but they are on iOS 9. Flawlessly working. Why?

Just curious.

 

[FeliApple]

Do you have proof, other than anecdotal, that a 6s on 11.4.1 is noticeably slower than a 6s on iOS 10.3.3?

I don't, I'll give you that. The only one who can produce something like that is Apple. They probably know, but for some reason that we don't know about, and that we can only speculate on (essentially what I told C DM) Apple refuses to do anything about it.
Nobody can prove what you are asking us to prove, but every single updated device that I have seen works worse compared to devices in their original version. Before you say it, that is still anecdotal evidence, it's just a shame that Apple refuses to do anything about it.
Now, if you will stick to "you have to prove it without anecdotal evidence", yes, I can't. I just think it's undeniable. Even more so if you look at older devices. But you could claim that my claims on the iPod Touch 4G and 5G are still anecdotal. I still think it's undeniable.

 

[C DM]

If you are sticking with that, then yes. I already acknowledged your point. All I'm saying is that Apple is at fault regarding some things that can be considered forced - planned? I don't know - obsolescence. If you refuse to tackle that on the basis that what I said isn't the main point of the thread, then we have nothing else to discuss.

They can be considered as something like that by some, sure.

 

[FeliApple]

They can be considered as something like that by some, sure.

If not as forced obsolescence, I think it's undeniable they are at least deficiencies that negatively impact users.

 

[C DM]

If not as forced obsolescence, I think it's undeniable they are at least deficiencies that negatively impact users.

And as mentioned before, that aspect of it is separate/different from the one I've been commenting on.

 

[fuchsdh]

The problem with that theory, and what makes it ridiculous, is that software doesn't advance at the pace you're envisioning. Three or four year old hardware should be able to run newer versions of a similar OS equally as well as the OS the device was released on. iOS 12 is proving that older devices are more than capable of running a modern version of iOS efficiently.

Apple has unlimited resources, this is not a resource problem. Apple makes money by selling you new iPhones. It is what it is, but it's real.

I hate these takes. Apple can't change the laws of physics. Even having truckloads of money doesn't change the fact that they have to get a product out each and every year. If they just focus on optimization, then they get savaged by people. If they add boatloads of great new features, they get savaged by people. It's impossible to do both competently and in the timeframe, especially since software development doesn't necessarily scale indefinitely the more engineers you dump on a project.