M1 Mac External Display - Fuzzy Fonts & Colors - YPBPR vs RGB

[Moosebear]

I'm a bit confused reading through all this here. I just received a 2K Dell S2721D and the text looks like crap on it. (Photos seem good enough) I've tried the "disable font smoothing", sharpness on the monitor, switching to RGB, nothing helps.

I got an RMA from Dell, and I would send it back, but is there a way I can make this monitor have anywhere near the clarity of the retina screen? (See photos below) Apple is working on a fix? Or should I send this one back and opt for a 4K monitor? The weird thing is, this Dell S2721D works the same on my old 2013 Intel Macbook pro as on my new M1. So what patch would we be waiting for, if this is an old, known issue? Or is 2K just too low-res in a 27" monitor?

Someone also said using a displayport to USB c cable might help? Is that worth trying? Very confused by all this.

On the left below is my retina, on the right, my new Dell S2721D. Any help figuring this out is appreciated!

 

[patsio]

This is how it looks like on my Dell U2721DE

 

[theSeb]

I'm a bit confused reading through all this here. I just received a 2K Dell S2721D and the text looks like crap on it. (Photos seem good enough) I've tried the "disable font smoothing", sharpness on the monitor, switching to RGB, nothing helps.

I got an RMA from Dell, and I would send it back, but is there a way I can make this monitor have anywhere near the clarity of the retina screen? (See photos below) Apple is working on a fix? Or should I send this one back and opt for a 4K monitor? The weird thing is, this Dell S2721D works the same on my old 2013 Intel Macbook pro as on my new M1. So what patch would we be waiting for, if this is an old, known issue? Or is 2K just too low-res in a 27" monitor?

Someone also said using a displayport to USB c cable might help? Is that worth trying? Very confused by all this.

On the left below is my retina, on the right, my new Dell S2721D. Any help figuring this out is appreciated!


View attachment 1719791View attachment 1719792

Your monitor is a 27" with 2560x1440 native resolution and text will always look like rubbish on it unfortunately. No amount of messing around with cables or settings is going to change that in macOS. To reproduce something that is close to retina text you would need a 27" 4K monitor. It's an issue in Mac OS that has been there for years. I cannot remember exactly which version introduced this, but there will not be a patch for it. It is, as you say, a known old issue. You can scan through the Mac Accessories section of this forum and you will see posts from 2015, if not older, discussing this problem.

 

[Moosebear]

Your monitor is a 27" with 2560x1440 native resolution and text will always look like rubbish on it unfortunately.

Right, thanks, theSeb. I've packed it up the Dell S2721D for Purolator back to Dell.

I almost pulled the trigger on a Dell 4K model (S2721QS) it's on sale until Friday. But I hesitate, knowing that Dells seem to have issues. The USB version of a very similar model (for almost $200 more) seems to be fine according to some folks on this forum, but I am suspicious, and wonder if other brands might have better text clarity.

I wish I could go into a store to try some different models connected to my M1 Macbook. But we're in full Covid lockdown til at least Feb. 10 where I live in Ontario. So that ain't gonna happen.

 

[blaraka]

Don’t hold your breath for 11.2...
I'm running 11.2RC2 here with Dell P2415Q and still getting only YPbPr colour ouput (with USB-C -> DP cable, USB-C -> mDP dongle and HDMI; trying all the possible hacks).
It doesn't exactly obviously bad (sharpness is fine and it's not washed out, it's actually pretty) but the colours simply OFF if you pay attention especially with default colour profile loaded and "factory calibrated" setup on Dell. It has not been like that with my Intel Mac and it is not like that with my Windows laptop so it's obviously YPBPR vs RGB.
I've managed to get acceptable colour reproduction by using sRGB colour profile on Mac and tinkering with custom setup on Dell's OSD and for the time being it's good enough.
Still, I'm a hobbyist photographer doing occasional prints and if Apple doesn't fix it I might swallow my pride and buy LG Ultrafine ;x

 

[blaraka]

Right, thanks, theSeb. I've packed it up the Dell S2721D for Purolator back to Dell.

I almost pulled the trigger on a Dell 4K model (S2721QS) it's on sale until Friday. But I hesitate, knowing that Dells seem to have issues. The USB version of a very similar model (for almost $200 more) seems to be fine according to some folks on this forum, but I am suspicious, and wonder if other brands might have better text clarity.

I wish I could go into a store to try some different models connected to my M1 Macbook. But we're in full Covid lockdown til at least Feb. 10 where I live in Ontario. So that ain't gonna happen.

If you truly want Retina-like experience your options are unfortunately very limited. You need 4K at 24" (still lower PPI than Retina but good enough), 5K at 27"" or 6K at 32".
There is literally a handful of this kind of monitors on the market including some of them discontinued and other ridiculously expensive (Apple Pro Display XDR).
The most bang for a buck in terms of panel quality is Dell P2415Q but don't buy it. It doesn't get RGB signal with M1s so colours are off :x

 

[Moosebear]

Still, I'm a hobbyist photographer doing occasional prints and if Apple doesn't fix it I might swallow my pride and buy LG Ultrafine ;x

Right, thanks blaraka, great points. That LG Ultrafine looks pretty tempting. Cheapest place I can find to buy it in Canada is... Apple!!!

$879 $Can, I believe it's $699 American.
Bestbuy wants over a grand in Canada. Amazon wants $972, and a price-search history on Camelcamelcamel.com shows the cheapest it ever sold for on Amazon was...$852. Once, for a few days.

When was Apple ever the cheapest regular price on anything? lol!

Right now, I guess. I actually prefer a 24" monitor anyway, that's big enough for me, and if the resolution is better at that size, it's a no-brainer. Looking at the reviews, this monitor works really well with a Macbook pro, you can control brightness with the touchbar, etc.

I just ordered one from Apple, and it said 6 weeks delivery, then the shipping notice came 3 hours later- it arrives in 3 days, Great! Under-promise, over-deliver!

 

[Ninja Dom]

Your monitor is a 27" with 2560x1440 native resolution and text will always look like rubbish on it unfortunately. No amount of messing around with cables or settings is going to change that in macOS. To reproduce something that is close to retina text you would need a 27" 4K monitor. It's an issue in Mac OS that has been there for years. I cannot remember exactly which version introduced this, but there will not be a patch for it. It is, as you say, a known old issue. You can scan through the Mac Accessories section of this forum and you will see posts from 2015, if not older, discussing this problem.

Not really. I used a 27” iMac for 10 years. 2560 x 1440 native. Text was nice and sharp.

Sharper than the M1 Mac Mini & 32” monitor I replaced it with, still at 2560 x 1440.

The fuzzier fonts on the M1 was instantly noticeable once I started using it.

 

[dorobb]

The text on my DELL U2518D 1440p monitor end up being too small and more pixelated compared to connecting windows laptop, which is almost impossible to use without straining my eyes. I exhausted myself looking for solution and end up using external monitor only setup, not the best but way better compared to before. Basically I enable Mirror display and optimise for Build-in Retina Display then select "More space" for the scaling. The downsides were only one display can be used and will change the display aspect ratio (which leave black area on each side).

 

[jkirchgessner07]

Long time PC user, who just switched over to a M1 Macbook Pro. I encountered this same exact issue on my Dell U2515H monitor (2560x1440). As a designer, it was driving me nuts having to deal with fuzzy fonts, when the PC equivalent on the same monitor was tack sharp. From my googling and researching, I've narrowed this problem down to three distinct issues - each that contribute to the overall problem (which is why I believe no single 'solution' is working for anyone).

Issue 01: Dell monitors use a Displayport setting of 1.1a by default from the factory. The Mac seems to send out a 1.2 signal. On my Dell monitor (and I'd assume many others) you can enable 1.2 (MST) in the monitor adjustments panel—look for it under the 'Display' option. DP 1.2 needs to say 'Enable'. This cleared up 60% of the fuzzy font issue for me. And to clarify, this is when using a USB-C to Displayport cable.

Issue 02: Apple uses a fairly strong font smoothing that is no longer adjustable from the Big Sur general settings. You'll need to apply the typical 'font smoothing fix' that I've seen scattered across several forums. This removes the smoothing and helps another 20-30% of the issue.

Issue 03: This one is a bit trickier and I have not found a solution (yet). The Dell monitor reads a Mac signal (or possibly vice versa Mac reads the Dell) as a TV, which causes the YpBpR color profile. I'd imagine this results in the remaining 5-10% of the font crispness.

Hope that helps someone else. I'll update if I find a solution to the third and final issue.

 

[amitdel]

@jkirchgessner07 - Thanks for sharing this extremely granular fix with explanations!

will get a DisplayPort cable to replicate your fix.

In the meanwhile, since you have researched this in depth, do you think there is an alternate for resolving the first issue, when working with an HDMi cable?

if your fix works across monitors, switching to the DP cable is a trivial matter, but I ask for knowledge sake alone.

 

[tormac21]

I have two LG 27UK650 monitors plugged into my M1 Mac mini - one via HDMI, and one via USB C ->Displayport. Both running at 4k60, default scaled resolution.

The colours are definitely not the same, but I've found that setting the following color profiles gets the monitors so close that it's barely noticeable - certainly enough for any work that's not color sensitive.

HDMI Connected Monitor - sRGB IEC61966-2.1
USB C -> DP connected Monitor - Rec. ITU-R BT.705-5

This is not ideal, of course, but I guess we have to wait for a proper fix from Apple. This is close enough that I'm not distracted when I move applications from one monitor to the other.

 

[fc0712]

I have two LG 27UK650 monitors plugged into my M1 Mac mini - one via HDMI, and one via USB C ->Displayport. Both running at 4k60, default scaled resolution.

The colours are definitely not the same, but I've found that setting the following color profiles gets the monitors so close that it's barely noticeable - certainly enough for any work that's not color sensitive.

HDMI Connected Monitor - sRGB IEC61966-2.1
USB C -> DP connected Monitor - Rec. ITU-R BT.705-5

This is not ideal, of course, but I guess we have to wait for a proper fix from Apple. This is close enough that I'm not distracted when I move applications from one monitor to the other.

I’m getting a MBA next week and have the LG UL600 monitor. So does it work fine with usb c to DP?

Im planning to connect it with a displayport from my cal digit dock

 

[jkirchgessner07]

@jkirchgessner07 - Thanks for sharing this extremely granular fix with explanations!

will get a DisplayPort cable to replicate your fix.

In the meanwhile, since you have researched this in depth, do you think there is an alternate for resolving the first issue, when working with an HDMi cable?

if your fix works across monitors, switching to the DP cable is a trivial matter, but I ask for knowledge sake alone.

I experimented with solving the first issue by using HDMI, but nothing helped. It was a shame, because most cheaper USB-C hubs have HDMI as the only option. Also, just using a USB-C to DP looked identical to the HDMI output. It wasn’t until I flipped that DP 1.2 setting that I saw a drastic difference.

Now, if only we can fix that color mode...

 

[scgf]

I have an LG24UD58 4K monitor and run it at 2048x1152. It is connected via a USBC->DisplayPort cable. I just took a photo of the display, assuming this would be the best way to show it as it is. Clearly there is moire patterning as you'd expect when you take a photo of a screen, but you can see the fonts are sharp and just as good as my previous 4K iMac. I can examine them using a magnifying glass and they show no obvious anti-aliasing.

 

[Moosebear]

I have an LG24UD58 4K monitor and run it at 2048x1152. It is connected via a USBC->DisplayPort cable. I just took a photo of the display, assuming this would be the best way to show it as it is. Clearly there is moire patterning as you'd expect when you take a photo of a screen, but you can see the fonts are sharp and just as good as my previous 4K iMac. I can examine them using a magnifying glass and they show no obvious anti-aliasing.

View attachment 1720811

That's interesting, scgf, same exact resolution as the Ultrafine, in a 24". I can't seem to find that model available in Canada, but I see it's on sale on Amazon US for only $269! I guess the "Apple tax" is high on the Ultrafine. I can have that cheaper one sent across the border, after customs & exchange it would come to $500Ca, about 1/2 of what the Ultrafine costs.

The major differences I see in this comparison chart, between it and the Ultrafine are the Mac-style connectivity/charging thru USB-C, about double the brightness, (250cd/m vs 540 for the Ultrafine), speakers, and a height-adjustable stand. Not sure if those things are worth the price diff.


Since you have one scgf, do you ever find it a bit dim? Do you ever wish it could go brighter?

Also, I wonder if the Ultrafine might be better software-wise. Do you have issues with the LG24UD58 where it's kind of fussy to drag apps over to the other monitor from a macbook screen? (If you are using a macbook) I don't know if the Ultrafine overcomes those issues, but since it's built for a Mac, it should, I suppose.

A search for "macbook" on the Amazon reviews shows most Apple users are satisfied...

 

[scgf]

I have the brightness set at 5 and the contrast at 83, lol, so to answer your question about the display being dim, I can confidently say 'no'! I have a Mac Mini so this is my only monitor.

I bought an arm from Amazon for not much money which attaches to the monitor VESA mounting plate and allows me to have the screen in virtually any position I like.

The arm is pretty amazing, given the price! This is the UK link: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08D66SNVQ I can see that there are many variants on the US Amazon site too at around $35. Here's a link to one that looks the same as mine: https://smile.amazon.com/Single-Monitor-Mount-Articulating-Adjustable/dp/B07T3KCQ94

I originally bought the monitor to use with Windows 10, but it was so good I bought a new M1 Mac Mini to replace my Windows NUC.

I 'calibrated' it using the Mac utility in System Preferences/Disply/Colour. I find it perfectly acceptable, especially with that arm

 

[Moosebear]

That is a sweet setup scgf, minimalist and clean with maxed-out resolution on a moderately sized, highly positionable monitor. Combined with the value and power of an M1 mini, cordless mouse and keyboard, I think you hit the desktop computing jackpot.

 

[Moosebear]

Okay so BH Photo sells them both, for about $300 vs. $700. This link compares them.

I honestly can't imagine why the "ultrafine" is worth over twice as much. The "response time" is actually better on the cheaper one, 5ms vs. 14, although I think that seldom makes much difference.

 

[tormac21]

I have been able to solve my color issues with one HDMI - HDMI cable, and one USB C -> HDMI cable. Now that both monitors are connected via HDMI, the colours are accurate and exactly the same on both!

I'm running 4k 60 on two LG 27Uk650 monitors.

 

[scgf]

This guy says it's the best 4K monitor for a mac:

You can, of course, do fractional scaling. Just click on scaled in Displays while pressing the option key and you have a full range. As I said before I find 2048 x 1152 perfect for me.

 

[tormac21]

I spoke too soon. I see now that one display (HDMI - HDMI) has dropped into 4k 30 and does not want to come back to 60HZ.

Well, good thing that I'm testing this new machine. I still have a few days to return it - properly working dual monitors are non-negotiable for me. I've tried everything reasonable on my end, but it just doesn't work.

I hope that my experience helps someone else out, but for now, I'm gonna head back to the store and return this, and come back to the M1s in a few months when these early issues are fixed. Back to the Intel Mac for now!

 

[blaraka]

Okay so BH Photo sells them both, for about $300 vs. $700. This link compares them.

I honestly can't imagine why the "ultrafine" is worth over twice as much. The "response time" is actually better on the cheaper one, 5ms vs. 14, although I think that seldom makes much difference.

The more expensive one:
- Gives you more assurance of Mac compatibility as it was "made for Mac";
- Connects with one cable while providing your Macbook with power;
- Is twice as bright;
- Has much much better colour accuracy.

I care about decent colour accuracy a lot due to photography being my hobby and my main reasons to drop Dell P2415Q is problems with Mac compatibility that has been always there (hacks needed to force RGB) and got worse with M1. That's why I've ordered the Ultrafine 4K.
I've been really tempted to go all in and buy Ultrafine 5K, it seems it's gorgeous and the only real deal Retina baring Pro XDR but to be honest but I just couldn't explain to myself spending so much on display that according to reports online might not last more than 2-3 years

 

[Moosebear]

I just recieved my 4K Ultrafine today and set it up, it's great, text is cystal-clear! blaraka, thanks for directing me to that. If it wasn't a bunch of work, I'd consider swapping it out for the cheaper LG24UD58 4K monitor which scgf pointed out above. That video is useful, and makes it clear that it's a viable option. Same resolution, it seems, at less than 1/2 the price. But I think I'll keep this Ultrafine, in addition to the great points blaraka makes above, it's great on a Macbook Pro: when you touch the brightness control on the touch bar, two sliders come up, one for the Macbook, the other for the Ultrafine. Sweet. Plus the adjustable stand is solid.

Also, I realize that with Thunderbolt plugged into my laptop I not only charge, but I've effectively got a port hub on the back of the monitor. (2 thunderbolt and 3 USB-c) so I may not have to use the crappy little Hub dongle I bought for $30 on Amazon. This combined with the vagaries of cross-border shopping/warranty, I'm gonna thank Apple for getting me this solution in 3 days. Even if expensive, I'm happy.

I will now cease threadjacking.

 

[blaraka]

I just recieved my 4K Ultrafine today and set it up, it's great, text is cystal-clear! blaraka, thanks for directing me to that. If it wasn't a bunch of work, I'd consider swapping it out for the cheaper LG24UD58 4K monitor which scgf pointed out above. That video is useful, and makes it clear that it's a viable option. Same resolution, it seems, at less than 1/2 the price. But I think I'll keep this Ultrafine, in addition to the great points blaraka makes above, it's great on a Macbook Pro: when you touch the brightness control on the touch bar, two sliders come up, one for the Macbook, the other for the Ultrafine. Sweet. Plus the adjustable stand is solid.

Also, I realize that with Thunderbolt plugged into my laptop I not only charge, but I've effectively got a port hub on the back of the monitor. (2 thunderbolt and 3 USB-c) so I may not have to use the crappy little Hub dongle I bought for $30 on Amazon. This combined with the vagaries of cross-border shopping/warranty, I'm gonna thank Apple for getting me this solution in 3 days. Even if expensive, I'm happy.

I will now cease threadjacking.

Good to hear! Can't wait for mine to arrive