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i don't know.. it seems you're wishing for some sort of halo effect here.. like, you have absolute zero chance of ever buying or owning or using something like this:
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/proliant-servers/product-detail.html?oid=8255128

..but you still wish apple would make them anyway.
?
why? what does it matter?
I was making the point that Apple is surrendering markets bit by bit. They surrendered the server market and now they're starting to surrender the workstation market. I'm not concerned about servers nor would I want one. I just hate to see them continue to lose workstation customers.
 
"The 64-bit A9X chip gives iPad Pro the power to easily take on tasks once reserved for workstations and PCs."
http://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/

There you have it, boys and girls.
Apple's vision for workstations right there in black and white.
Lot's of folks chuckled at that bit of hyperbole when the iPad Pro came out last year.
Apple wasn't joking, though, it seems.
Well, except for $100 pencils.
 
I was making the point that Apple is surrendering markets bit by bit. They surrendered the server market and now they're starting to surrender the workstation market. I'm not concerned about servers nor would I want one. I just hate to see them continue to lose workstation customers.

How can they surrender markets they never intended to really compete in? Apple merely dabbled in the server market with the Xserve, and the classic PowerMac G5 and Mac Pro cheese graters were really more of a hobby than an effort to compete in the commercial workstation market. As flat five said above, Apple sells to the consumer market, and has never taken the enterprise market that seriously. The recent biography Becoming Steve Jobs lays this out quite well. Apple is not really a computer company, but a consumer device company. It turns out that many of these devices are also quite useful for professionals.
 
It's more likely Apple to resurrect the cMP FormFactor then they Rebrand a 3rd WS as a Mac o license macOS.

Apple has Special DOMs to plug on certain Server MB that allow them to run macOS, bit this is more like a sorto of internal use Hackintosh than a product they plan to release.
 
Which is better on the customer loyalty front?
  • Moving to Windows
  • Buying a co-branded MacOS system
If "customer loyalty is paramount", does that mean "buy whatever crap has a half-eaten apple on it"? Or does it mean buying into the Apple eco-system - even if the high end systems are re-badged?

And seriously, are any of the electronic parts in the MP6,1 actually made by Apple? It seems to be GPUs from AMD, CPUs from Intel, PEX switches from PLX, RAM from x, SSDs from y, .....

Is it really that big of a change to go from outside parts glued together by Apple and sold by Apple, to outside parts glued together by HP and sold by Apple?

It's a big enough change that I'd eat my words if what you suggest even had the slightest possibility of happening. The powers that be made a gamble in 2013, and it more than likely failed. Never met anyone with sales figures to show either argument, just likely speculation supporting folks that don't care for 6,1 on this forum.

Either way they don't need to pay their competition to build, warranty, service or license OS or components. Laughable to think any of the companies you mentioned would even touch it with a 10 foot pole...Apple has all of the infrastructure to both support and build a competitive workstation if they choose to stay in the game, and yes, buy bulk generic parts from other manufacturers. This is Apple after all...they like to be in control of inventory, design and support services. It's a nice dream you have, but wake up.
 
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How about a middle ground between the underpowered 6,1 tube and a big tower. Make the tube taller so it can host 2 regular size PCIe cards (nVidia Pascal perhaps), use the faster and more sophisticated TB3 I/O direct to the mobo to support any other PCIe cards, up the PSU to 650W, move to DDR4 RAM, upgrade monitor ports to HDMI 2.0a & DP 1.3.

This retains the physical advantage of the vertical central cooling via a large (slower, quieter) fan and should still be lightweight enough for moderate portability.

Staying with the current form factor, even with the newer process shrunk boards, is unlikely to be enough oomph. Going back to boxy towers would be a serious retreat for Apple - hard to see that happening.
 
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I have heard too many of the long term Apple users thinking about leaving that I know something is up.

These are people that really are a foundation for Apple, I don’t know how many times someone said to me after buying a mac that I should be on a commission by Apple, since I got so many people to switch.

Today I can honestly say that I don’t recommend that people switch, and that has actually been the case the last couple of years.

Apple is shedding their “tech aware” customers, and that shows they have lost their way again.

I have a lot of respect for Tim Cook as a person, but he might want to change his last name to Sculley.

We have entered the Tim Sculley era.

Steve hired the wrong guy again........
Interesting you say that as I have been recommending Dells. In fact the New precision mobiles resemble apple in a lot of ways with the boxing and what not. While that is just "eye" candy in the first impression when it comes down to it, the box sits in a closet or tossed out. End of story.

The lack of updates on not just MPro, but mbPro too. The single port. You saw it with FCPX became a "prosumer" programme not professional what FCP used to be. The small amount of folks that use is what now to apple? Business is business and iPhones and iPads sell. I get that. Their core loyal customers are now leaving. I keep saying I will and I hated apple in the 80s where I wanted to work for Billy G and friends and then I became "enlightened" by Stevie J and wanted to get yelled at like folks want to get hollered by gordon Ramsay.

I never liked Tim from the beginning. I dont know why he was Steves choice for succession, but at the end of stoves life something changed. And Apple is no longer the same. The phone 7 looks lame. Why investing in a car I dont care about. Or TVs. I like my Sony. I get the WWDC is for devs and no need for hardware but apple is losing the magic smoke. In electrics when something goes poof the magic smoke escapes. When it escapes it is beyond repair. I am afraid apple might be leaking some magic smoke. And I am nervous it is too late.
 
The small amount of folks that use is what now to apple?


Based on another year of silence at WWDC...not much. We can have the fleeting hope like the OS of the future its one of those things apple deemed not worthy of a stage talk even (iMessage catching up to every other IM out there had that honor) but....I'd not bet my rent money on it though.

Which sucks. I do like apple. its just....hardware wise other vendors are dangling things before me. Like speed, upgrade options so I can just buy the one component...not having to ditch the whole computer. Software is dangling bait....I will pay for a persistent not sub based avid license one day most likely. I hate subs....just my thing.

If its cost having apple get stupid here, many I think would pay some money for an actual new version. Revamped, new and improved, all that jazz.

To replace aperture after its execution (at a WWDC to add insult to injury, the one year we get our wish and have it mentioned at WWDC was the day they killed it) I spent a fair amount of money to find a replacement. It could have been theirs to keep me around. New and improved aperture for $200....would have been cheaper than me slumming it with adobe again , realizing why I hated them and paid for a switch to dx0. Others as well most likely spent a few dollars to of find a new photo PP solution.

FCP same thing. I don't want to leave it. But..its update cycle is pathetic and apple is not giving any signs it will get better. Last patch had FCP natively recognize new i devices released months prior. WTF is that? Most other apps out their has this has new device support out in days , if not hours after NDA is dissolved and its push the patch. This is nikon, canon, etc to 3rd party software.

Apple makes FCP, they make the I devices....am i being told even FCP dev team is kept in the dark as well as we are so they don' t know to add support for this stuff till months after release? Day 1 lack of support says...yes. Even nikon who can suck horribly at software...at least had that new lens or body correction profile released same day as the gear for their stuff.
 
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Just to break up all the WWSD stuff.

When the Mac was introduced it was not expandable which was contrary to the II and the Lisa. Steve would have loved the tube if the tech was there in his day to make it happen, the tube really is an homage to him.
 
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yeah.. but apple got out of the business of selling products that sit in dark caves all day long.. they sell things that they intend individual people to use. (this is clear to everybody, right?)


i don't know.. it seems you're wishing for some sort of halo effect here.. like, you have absolute zero chance of ever buying or owning or using something like this:
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/proliant-servers/product-detail.html?oid=8255128

..but you still wish apple would make them anyway.
?
why? what does it matter?
There are rumors (due to the FBI decryption requests, NSA spying, etc.) that Apple is looking to control more of their hardware to prevent any backdoors. Naturally this leads to speculation that the Xserve may be resurrected in some fashion. Would make my work a lot easier if they did...
 
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How can they surrender markets they never intended to really compete in? Apple merely dabbled in the server market with the Xserve, and the classic PowerMac G5 and Mac Pro cheese graters were really more of a hobby than an effort to compete in the commercial workstation market.
They recently went into a partnership with IBM to get iPads into the enterprise market. When the announced the MacPro at WWDC, they made it a point to have customers with demanding needs test it out and come on stage saying how much they liked it. I'm not arguing with what you read. It just seems to contradict the idea that they consider the MacPro a pastime of sorts or they are totally confused about what to do with their hobbies.
As flat five said above, Apple sells to the consumer market
They have made that abundantly clear in recent years which points to the idea (from the book you read) that Jobs was behind the switch in direction when he changed the company to just Apple.[/QUOTE]
Apple is not really a computer company, but a consumer device company. It turns out that many of these devices are also quite useful for professionals.
Continuing with that premise, the MacPro is actually a prosumer computer and not a workstation and should not be considered as such.
 
he changed the company to just Apple.

Continuing with that premise, the MacPro is actually a prosumer computer and not a workstation and should not be considered as such.[/QUOTE]
I think the cMP was a workstation albeit a mid level one. Not sure how to characterize the nMP except that it is less of a workstation than the cMP.
 
Just to break up all the WWSD stuff.

When the Mac was introduced it was not expandable which was contrary to the II and the Lisa. Steve would have loved the tube if the tech was there in his day to make it happen, the tube really is an homage to him.

Steve undoubtedly signed off on the Tube before he died, but it wouldn't be the first of his ideas to fail. Part of Jobs's genius is that he owned his mistakes and always followed up with an idea that demonstrated he understood exactly how he had effed up:

Apple III followup: Macintosh. World domination of graphic arts for years.
iMac lack of CD burner: iTunes, "Rip, Mix, Burn", world domination of online music for years.
Power Mac G4 Cube: Power Mac G5 Aluminum Tower, not quite world domination but one of the best workstation towers ever designed. Quiet, beautiful, and functional.
So if it is true that the Tube's sales suck (which is easy to believe), then I believe Jobs would have owned the mistake and moved on to something awesome.


As for No One, I'm not convinced she has any inside knowledge, but her intelligence/predictions/WAGS frankly make far more sense than Apple slapping their logo on some Dell workstation.

This is her most compelling point for me:

Also compare TDP and see Broadwell-EP is higher. Tube already has cooling problems so yet another reason Apple forced to eat the crow.

I found this and this, which both show Broadwell-EP ranging to 145W and Skylake-EP to 160W. Sure enough, this list shows a 145W Broadwell E5-2697 v4 2.3 GHz 18 core. If the current 130W Xeon Tube is known to burn up GPUs for lack of proper cooling, how will it handle a CPU with a 30W greater TDP? Apple could let their failed design dictate a switch to more efficient Nvidia GPUs, but that seems unlikely given their push for pro users to use OpenCL. They could simply jack the fan speed, but they already refuse to do so to fix the current overheating problems. So if tube sales are bad, future CPUs are problematic, and executives hear the complaints of irate professionals, maybe a redesign really is the source of the delay.

I want to believe, but...

The macpro7,1 reference found in the El Capitan USB kext file shows ten USB ports, which is exactly what to expect with a move to Thunderbolt 3 that combines the current 4 USB ports and 6 TB2 ports.

I think Apple's management view the Mac Pro as a reputable product brand to be milked for cash. It's even cheaper to manufacture than the tower so margins are fatter than ever. The little "cute" portable workstation sells better to rich consumers who don't need it. They gimp the Mini to drive even more of these consumers to the Tube. They include old GPUs because newer ones would hurt their margins and require newer drivers. They include a single PCIe SSD socket to force an up sell to the largest Apple SSD which is literally pure profit margin. The single internal drive also forces a move to myriad Thunderbolt enclosures, which sells more $50 Apple Thunderbolt Cables (made in China for what, maybe $2 each?). Six Thunderbolt Ports = Six cables = $300, or probably $250 in pure profit. What a nice profit margin upgrade over the cMP that let users upgrade drives without any profit to Apple at all!

The Tube serves as a "halo product" internally at Apple HQ: the ultimate exhibit of an insanely-great-profit-margin product.
[doublepost=1466715431][/doublepost]
Great. Now I'm going to be looking over my shoulder for the black Apple helicopters until release...

Sorry Tim. I know nothing. Just a stab in the dark based on the facts at hand.

:)

You mean Rose Gold Helicopters. And they will be so thin you won't even be sure they're following you.
 
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Yet, so far the same TDP CPUs from Broadwell-E compared to Haswell-E, and EP use less power while having the same amount of CPU cores, in similar load scenarios.

Intel considered the fact that their CPUs will be hotter, because of the amount of cores, so he pushed down the power consumption, and thermal output of the CPUs.

10 core version(6950X) alone consumes 108W under load compared to 153W in Haswell-E 5960X. This is power consumption of the CPU alone.
7725_59_intel-broadwell-core-i7-6950x-10-extreme-edition-cpu-review.png

6700K has 91W TDP, 5960X and 6950X both have 140W. The power consumption and thermal output of Broadwell CPUs will be much lower than any previous high-end/workstation CPU.

18 core CPU can have around 140W TDP(both power consumption and thermal output).
 
It's too bad Apple doesn't care about gaming. With an Nvidia card the tube form factor would have made a lot more sense as a gaming/vr powerhouse than the aging, glorified final cut machine it is now.
 
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Just to break up all the WWSD stuff.

When the Mac was introduced it was not expandable which was contrary to the II and the Lisa. Steve would have loved the tube if the tech was there in his day to make it happen, the tube really is an homage to him.

But the Tube is aimed at the professional workstation market, at least in theory. The original Macintosh was like the iMac now, aimed at the upper consumer markets. Professional desktop publishing didn't exist as a market when the Macintosh was cenceived. And since the 90s Apple have offered some sort of tower computer for pros and hobbiests. Even the Power Mac G4 Cube wasn't forced on users as a tower replacement.

The Tube would make a fine headless iMac design. Offer it with a desktop i5/i7, a single GPU, and use the 2nd GPU space for a few drive bays or mini-PCIe slots for blade SSDs. Price it at $1200 and it would be a hit. I don't like the proprietary GPU but as long as Apple still offered a workstation tower I'd have a choice. Mini, Tube, and Tower, with the iMac as the AIO solution. Would it kill Apple to offer such choices? What if they tried such a lineup and their total desktop sales actually went up? :eek:
[doublepost=1466719007][/doublepost]
Yet, so far the same TDP CPUs from Broadwell-E compared to Haswell-E, and EP use less power while having the same amount of CPU cores, in similar load scenarios.

Intel considered the fact that their CPUs will be hotter, because of the amount of cores, so he pushed down the power consumption, and thermal output of the CPUs.

10 core version(6950X) alone consumes 108W under load compared to 153W in Haswell-E 5960X. This is power consumption of the CPU alone.
6700K has 91W TDP, 5960X and 6950X both have 140W. The power consumption and thermal output of Broadwell CPUs will be much lower than any previous high-end/workstation CPU.

18 core CPU can have around 140W TDP(both power consumption and thermal output).

For the same number of cores Broadwell will have lower TDP, but for CPUs in the same position of the lineup regarding price, they have higher TDP. 18 cores is the now comparable to what 12 cores were years ago, and those 18 core chips are hungry mofos.
 
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The question is really boiling down do you want current hardware and regular updates and are willing to deal with Windows or do you want macOS and are willing to deal with less current hardware and uncertain updates?
 
Uh, you forgot about Phil and Jony. I'm sure they can screw things up almost as well even without Tim's help.
 
It's too bad Apple doesn't care about gaming. With an Nvidia card the tube form factor would have made a lot more sense as a gaming/vr powerhouse than the aging, glorified final cut machine it is now.


They could in theory keep with the AMD. Olive branch to the AMD people, had a few rounds with them in another thread a bit back lol.

Issue is native macOS drives gimp the cards even in place. this seen in the magical effect a simple bootcamp windows install causes. games run faster in windows. Different driver set for the bootcamp castrates them less.

We could say its wrappers for the ports. Fair enough for most cases. Its steam/valve that says nope...its not me, its you. Champions of the open game idea and a fair offering of open gl games. Well that and it probably laid some groundwork for steam OS game play as an ulterior motive lol.

Even open gl games runs better on anything besides native macOS. No direct x translation there.

Lets in theory have apple throw in even a titan. Apple would gimp the macOS drivers to meet their thermal ideals. Titans need some air to breath. Can't have it running full bore...it need fans moving more air and be noisy. tends to put off some users. Me...damn near everything I do has fans on my mbp pro run full speed ahead. I will have tons of video to shoot then edit this weekend. My mbp will not be quiet at night this weekend. I accept and move on. Performance has a price. Heat which needs fans to remove better.
 
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Personally, I think Steve would have loved the trashcan the same way he loved the G4 Cube, and even the TAM Macintosh at the time.

I also think that Steve was smart enough to always have another product in the pipeline ready to go, to replace these exotic designs, in case they didn't catch on.

Look at the TAM and the Cube (just for a couple of examples), and how quickly they got dis-continued.
If you noticed, there was always another product released to fill that niche (and satisfy what customers REALLY wanted, almost instantly) as soon as that product was dis-continued.

It almost seems (to me anyway) like Apple has been scrambling for 2 years, to design a new machine to fill the gap in the pro market that the trashcan didn't satisfy.
It seems like Apple had no back-up plan for the trashcan not being universally loved !

As much as folks claim that Steve was a self-centered ego-maniac, who believed that the world would love everything that he and Apple made, he always did have a backup plan.
There are no such backup plans now within Apple, just that ego-maniacal belief that the world will love everything that they push out the door.

It's sad that it's all economics, and it will come down to Apple having to make a major decision soon (if it hasn't been made already).

Is the time and money invested to re-tool a new MacPro (into something customers actually want and need,) going to be worth the R&D costs to develop a new design ?
Is this going to be a market that is profitable to us ?

I really hope it's a market they want to hang on to, unlike the server market, I would love to see a full tower or even a mini tower expandable design aimed towards prosumers or actual pros.

Sorry Tim faster iMacs are not the answer, I was almost sold on that, until Apple neutered the i7 iMacs a couple of years ago.
Not to mention the issue of running the iMac GPU's so hot that it's almost to the failure point at idle (but that's another issue).

All we want is a tower, or even a more power efficent mini-tower (if that makes Apple happy), just give us something we can actually work with !

Just my $.02 though YMMV.

- Jay
 
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