macOS 13 Ventura on Unsupported Macs Thread

[Sven G]

Successfully installed, booted and updated Ventura from beta 1 to beta 2, on my MacBook Pro 11,3 (15”, late 2013, with a Haswell processor; and with Ventura and OCLP 0.4.7 installed on an external 64 GB USB drive): sadly, as was to be expected due to the changes introduced in Ventura, no Metal accelerated graphics, even if this MBP supports Metal (the built-in screen is detected as a 47” external display, with only a fixed resolution of 2880x1800 available, thus also with no Retina pixel doubling). At least, it boots - while in Monterey it would hang at boot if not root patched (Kepler dGPU), and in Ventura (which has dropped also iGPU Intel Iris Pro support) there’s only a basic framebuffer - and seems to be stable, (small) graphics included (while in Parallels Desktop or VMware Fusion, in Ventura and Monterey VMs, there are graphical glitches, also often with invisible menus and flickering, due to their still experimental Metal support): not really so useful (no i/dGPU root patching possible, yet) - but an interesting experiment…

 

[adrianlondon]

Good to know. I have a late-2013 15" MBP too, but as I smashed the screen a couple of years ago I've since disconnected the internal display and boot up either using my TV (as it has HDMI) or I connect via screen-sharing. I had to disable FileVault for that to work (otherwise it'd want me to log in prior to the screen sharing daemon loading of course).

In a few weeks or so, I'll upgrade from Big Sur to Ventura. I did have Monterey running very well on it, but did a complete reset recently and put it back to stock.

 

[TOM1211]

Software update from beta 1 to beta 2 no issues running update at all on MacBook Pro mid 2014 minus graphics it seems to run ok for me.
Mouse working properly with recent patches.

 

[Ausdauersportler]

1. AVX2 and Ventura:

You may check this link about the current situation.

For all of who have installed Ventura on any supported/unsupported devices you may use this method to check for AVX2 instructions hidden in any executables or libs. Unfortunately is is not that easy to access binaries from the kernel extensions any longer since they are not stored on disk but hidden in a big cache.

The AMDRadeonX4000GLDriver.bundle now has AVX2 code included. It was used on Monterey for all AMD GCN 1-4 AMD dGPU for acceleration.

Same applies to the AMD libs used in the OpenCL.frameworks, which explains why OpenCL is broken on pre (late 2013) Macs.

2. Booting macOS 13 on unsupported pre Haswell devices

You may ask the guys posting their success here about crashes of numerous components starting with the setup screen, login screen, window server. The spoiler on the first post has the title "List of officially unsupported machines that have shown Ventura booting ability to some degree".

I know, the human cerebrum gets tricked and fooled easily starting to ignore facts when the brainstem comes up with hopes and wishes. But this is not about believing, it is about stating simple undeniable facts.

3. Some experiences using the same Ventura installation on different iMacs:

The older the CPU gets the more crashes I got using the same SSD with beta 1 to boot from and the same dGPU (supported, but not accelerated metal Polaris dGPU due to lacking AVX2 support) in different iMacs from 2009 to 2011:

• iMac12,2 Mid 2011 Sandy Bridge CPU (WindowServer crashing, apps like Maps not working, etc. ),
• iMac11,3 Mid 2010 Lynnfield CPU (more crashes, setup, login, window server, had to run setup on 2011 at the very end)
• iMac10,1 Late 2009 Wolfdale CPU (many more crashes, sometimes booting not possible, meta stable situation).

You may extrapolate from this to other older pre 2010 systems.

 

[laertemeira]

I know, the human cerebrum gets tricked and fooled easily starting to ignore facts when the brainstem comes up with hopes and wishes. But this is not about believing, it is about stating simple undeniable facts.

Claps, claps, claps!
I agree hundred and one percent!

 

[Larsvonhier]

I believe you, and understand. But then we have posts like this:



Seems like there should be some clarification on this in the Wiki? Anyone casually reading is either going to get confused (like me), or have incorrect expectations and start to litter this thread with questions about potential support.

Have you had a look at page 1 recently? Thought to have added more clarification than confusion there ;-)

 

[BeatCrazy]

Have you had a look at page 1 recently? Thought to have added more clarification than confusion there ;-)

If that was your addition, thank you and yes it is helpful.

 

[Larsvonhier]

Claps, claps, claps!
I agree hundred and one percent!

Good fact, also that you added an extra percent above full scale ;-)

While I agreed most of the time (all recent years) with @Ausdauersportler , what "undeniable facts" are there, other than he tried the same installation of Vbeta1 on three iMacs with a Polaris GPU and found instabilities.
I stated on wiki page 1 that I booted Ventura to various successes on a lot of machines, as others also reported.
Apps like Maps, Facetime, Screensavers, Messages etc. do also not run without any acceleration on previous macOS (Monterey etc.). We are just a couple of weeks into the journey of getting things up and running. Nobody gives any guarantee to what degree which machine gets full/usable end results. Cerebral cortex be my guest.

I admit being "guilty" of not sharing more details of "the degree" of what each machine behaved like, stability etc. and did avoid flooding the thread with screenshots.
Isn´t that part of the fun to find out yourselves?
Spoiler: Some of the systems were stable enough to run for an hour of tests, including basic web surfing with safari, using chipmachine for sound output to my homepods and some other fun things.

I´d say let´s see where the core devs bring us on this journey.

 

[Larsvonhier]

Good to know. I have a late-2013 15" MBP too, but as I smashed the screen a couple of years ago I've since disconnected the internal display and boot up either using my TV (as it has HDMI) or I connect via screen-sharing. I had to disable FileVault for that to work (otherwise it'd want me to log in prior to the screen sharing daemon loading of course).

In a few weeks or so, I'll upgrade from Big Sur to Ventura. I did have Monterey running very well on it, but did a complete reset recently and put it back to stock.

Don´t rely on this machine running Ventura at this point (even in a few weeks!), but check page 1 frequently to see if/when it is not pure experimental state any more...

 

[adrianlondon]

Don´t rely on this machine running Ventura at this point (even in a few weeks!), but check page 1 frequently to see if/when it is not pure experimental state any more...

Thanks. And of course, it's a play machine. I don't mind what state it's in (even if it refuses to boot at all) as I play. In fact, if things worked perfectly, I'd be bored!

 

[adam25255]

And how is it with Ivy Bridge? Is it usable?

 

[Ausdauersportler]

And how is it with Ivy Bridge? Is it usable?

IB = pre Haswell == no AVX2 - how often do we have to repeat this?

 

[zzzippp]

Not to rain on everyone's parade, but for those people with pre-Haswell systems currently able to run macOS Monterey via OpenCore/OCLP, it may serve well to consider a reality check of how many (or few!) features / improvements will actually be gained in macOS 13 Ventura over what Monterey provides for Intel-based Macs:

• Stage Manager - Apple's new graphical task/window switching manager, but you'll need a capable (and compatible) GPU for it to be worth it
• Passkeys - Allows online account access with Touch ID and Face ID instead of passwords, but most pre-Haswell systems very likely won't be able to make use of this feature
• Continuity Camera - Allows iPhones to be used as a wireless webcam for the Mac, but only works with certain iPhone models, and there's a very good chance this won't work on pre-Haswell systems anyhow
• Metal 3 - This new graphics API will only work on systems with AMD Vega / 5000-series / 6000-series GPUs or Intel UHD Graphics 630 / Iris Pro Graphics, and even then it may not work if the drivers/other software components include Intel AVX2 instruction code
• FaceTime Continuity - Allows hand off of FaceTime calls to/from a compatible iPhone
• Mail app - Minor improvements including undo / schedule send, suggestions, Remind Me, and overhauled search
• Safari app - Minor improvements including Shared Tab Groups
• Settings app - Replaces System Preferences app with a much iOS-style UI
• Software Update - Improved for smaller/faster delta updates, but any system updates may and likely will require re-extracting the Rosetta 2 x64 emulation dyld cache library found in Apple Silicon Ventura installations to replace the updated Intel x64 dyld cache that has AVX2 instruction code incompatible with pre-Haswell CPUs.

These new features will only work on Apple Silicon Macs:

• Live Captions
• Emoji Dictation
• Reference Mode with Sidecar

Keep in mind that any Apple or 3rd party apps, drivers, (or kernel extensions not included in the Rosetta 2 x64 emulation dyld cache library) which use AVX2 instructions will in most cases not work on any pre-Haswell systems, unless someone manages to find a way to incorporate a working AVX instruction emulator - an extremely difficult (if not impossible) task. User @Syncretic already created an AVX emulator over a year ago (see this thread for more details) but has not yet found a way to properly integrate it into macOS Monterey, and that was before the 12.4 update that included a few kernel extensions / components updated with AVX instructions.

macOS Ventura's use of AVX instructions is on another whole level, running deep throughout key components of the system software, such that Syncretic describes it as a "minefield". As he described in this post, his preliminary scan of beta 1 of Ventura turned up over 1.6 million AVX+ instructions across 172 files.

Given that Ventura beta 2 already includes at least one key AMD GPU driver update compiled with AVX2 instructions as @Ausdauersportler announced above, it's not a big leap to expect more of other macOS components to be updated to include AVX2 instructions in the latest / future Ventura betas and the release version.

As a happy 2010 MacPro5,1 user running macOS Monterey, I personally would love to see Ventura on my machine, but I realize I have to look at the diminishing returns Ventura provides considering how likely it won't be even remotely operable on such an old machine.

 

[adam25255]

IB = pre Haswell == no AVX2 - how often do we have to repeat this?

I am asking, because you have provided list of Macs , but ommited IB devices. And Ivy Bridge is said to run better than SB iMac.

My MBP(signature) is slightly different siruation.(IB with iGPU)

 

[trifero]

Not to rain on everyone's parade, but for those people with pre-Haswell systems currently able to run macOS Monterey via OpenCore/OCLP, it may serve well to consider a reality check of how many (or few!) features / improvements will actually be gained in macOS 13 Ventura over what Monterey provides for Intel-based Macs:

• Stage Manager - Apple's new graphical task/window switching manager, but you'll need a capable (and compatible) GPU for it to be worth it
• Passkeys - Allows online account access with Touch ID and Face ID instead of passwords, but most pre-Haswell systems very likely won't be able to make use of this feature
• Continuity Camera - Allows iPhones to be used as a wireless webcam for the Mac, but only works with certain iPhone models, and there's a very good chance this won't work on pre-Haswell systems anyhow
• Metal 3 - This new graphics API will only work on systems with AMD Vega / 5000-series / 6000-series GPUs or Intel UHD Graphics 630 / Iris Pro Graphics, and even then it may not work if the drivers/other software components include Intel AVX2 instruction code
• FaceTime Continuity - Allows hand off of FaceTime calls to/from a compatible iPhone
• Mail app - Minor improvements including undo / schedule send, suggestions, Remind Me, and overhauled search
• Safari app - Minor improvements including Shared Tab Groups
• Settings app - Replaces System Preferences app with a much iOS-style UI
• Software Update - Improved for smaller/faster delta updates, but any system updates may and likely will require re-extracting the Rosetta 2 x64 emulation dyld cache library found in Apple Silicon Ventura installations to replace the updated Intel x64 dyld cache that has AVX2 instruction code incompatible with pre-Haswell CPUs.

These new features will only work on Apple Silicon Macs:

• Live Captions
• Emoji Dictation
• Reference Mode with Sidecar

Keep in mind that any Apple or 3rd party apps, drivers, (or kernel extensions not included in the Rosetta 2 x64 emulation dyld cache library) which use AVX2 instructions will in most cases not work on any pre-Haswell systems, unless someone manages to find a way to incorporate a working AVX instruction emulator - an extremely difficult (if not impossible) task. User @Syncretic already created an AVX emulator over a year ago (see this thread for more details) but has not yet found a way to properly integrate it into macOS Monterey, and that was before the 12.4 update that included a few kernel extensions / components updated with AVX instructions.

macOS Ventura's use of AVX instructions is on another whole level, running deep throughout key components of the system software, such that Syncretic describes it as a "minefield". As he described in this post, his preliminary scan of beta 1 of Ventura turned up over 1.6 million AVX+ instructions across 172 files.

Given that Ventura beta 2 already includes at least one key AMD GPU driver update compiled with AVX2 instructions as @Ausdauersportler announced above, it's not a big leap to expect more of other macOS components to be updated to include AVX2 instructions in the latest / future Ventura betas and the release version.

As a happy 2010 MacPro5,1 user running macOS Monterey, I personally would love to see Ventura on my machine, but I realize I have to look at the diminishing returns Ventura provides considering how likely it won't be even remotely operable on such an old machine.

We have at least more than 2 years before Monterey is declared out of support.

 

[roobarb!]

We have at least more than 2 years before Monterey is declared out of support.

Sadly, I've noticed that Apple tend to kill updates to their own software before official OS support ends. As an example, the iWork suite (if that's even what it's called these days) was excluded from accessing any Collaboration features through iCloud unless updated to the latest version, which is unsupported on Catalina despite 10.15 still receiving security updates.

 

[Shadow Demon]

We have at least more than 2 years before Monterey is declared out of support.

I am hoping that OCLP easily makes it thru the rest of Monterey. With only 12 remaining Intel Macs under 7 unique types left that support Ventura, my speculative sense is that Ventura is the end-of-line for Intel support. I am very appreciative of all OCLP team has accomplished but I am thinking that Apple Silicon is my future after the next two years.

 

[0xCUBE]

Not to rain on everyone's parade, but for those people with pre-Haswell systems currently able to run macOS Monterey via OpenCore/OCLP, it may serve well to consider a reality check of how many (or few!) features / improvements will actually be gained in macOS 13 Ventura over what Monterey provides for Intel-based Macs:

• Stage Manager - Apple's new graphical task/window switching manager, but you'll need a capable (and compatible) GPU for it to be worth it
• Passkeys - Allows online account access with Touch ID and Face ID instead of passwords, but most pre-Haswell systems very likely won't be able to make use of this feature
• Continuity Camera - Allows iPhones to be used as a wireless webcam for the Mac, but only works with certain iPhone models, and there's a very good chance this won't work on pre-Haswell systems anyhow
• Metal 3 - This new graphics API will only work on systems with AMD Vega / 5000-series / 6000-series GPUs or Intel UHD Graphics 630 / Iris Pro Graphics, and even then it may not work if the drivers/other software components include Intel AVX2 instruction code
• FaceTime Continuity - Allows hand off of FaceTime calls to/from a compatible iPhone
• Mail app - Minor improvements including undo / schedule send, suggestions, Remind Me, and overhauled search
• Safari app - Minor improvements including Shared Tab Groups
• Settings app - Replaces System Preferences app with a much iOS-style UI
• Software Update - Improved for smaller/faster delta updates, but any system updates may and likely will require re-extracting the Rosetta 2 x64 emulation dyld cache library found in Apple Silicon Ventura installations to replace the updated Intel x64 dyld cache that has AVX2 instruction code incompatible with pre-Haswell CPUs.

These new features will only work on Apple Silicon Macs:

• Live Captions
• Emoji Dictation
• Reference Mode with Sidecar

Keep in mind that any Apple or 3rd party apps, drivers, (or kernel extensions not included in the Rosetta 2 x64 emulation dyld cache library) which use AVX2 instructions will in most cases not work on any pre-Haswell systems, unless someone manages to find a way to incorporate a working AVX instruction emulator - an extremely difficult (if not impossible) task. User @Syncretic already created an AVX emulator over a year ago (see this thread for more details) but has not yet found a way to properly integrate it into macOS Monterey, and that was before the 12.4 update that included a few kernel extensions / components updated with AVX instructions.

macOS Ventura's use of AVX instructions is on another whole level, running deep throughout key components of the system software, such that Syncretic describes it as a "minefield". As he described in this post, his preliminary scan of beta 1 of Ventura turned up over 1.6 million AVX+ instructions across 172 files.

Given that Ventura beta 2 already includes at least one key AMD GPU driver update compiled with AVX2 instructions as @Ausdauersportler announced above, it's not a big leap to expect more of other macOS components to be updated to include AVX2 instructions in the latest / future Ventura betas and the release version.

As a happy 2010 MacPro5,1 user running macOS Monterey, I personally would love to see Ventura on my machine, but I realize I have to look at the diminishing returns Ventura provides considering how likely it won't be even remotely operable on such an old machine.

this is a very good point you make. It's good to be aware of what you'll miss out on even with accel. I'm adding it to the useful posts in the first post of this thread, thanks a lot!

 

[alexcorpse]

I have managed to install ventura from usb in ivy brigde without problem I install perfect I can enter recovery in just 10 seconds the problem when I go to boot in the partition it runs as if it were to open but it always stops in a different boot sometimes in aps another in hash never in the same but I think it is something I will continue investigating

 

[trifero]

I am hoping that OCLP easily makes it thru the rest of Monterey. With only 12 remaining Intel Macs under 7 unique types left that support Ventura, my speculative sense is that Ventura is the end-of-line for Intel support. I am very appreciative of all OCLP team has accomplished but I am thinking that Apple Silicon is my future after the next two years.

That it´s simply not posible. Consider they are selling incredible expensive Intel Mac Pro´s. I should say about 8-10 years more.

 

[BeatCrazy]

That it´s simply not posible. Consider they are selling incredible expensive Intel Mac Pro´s. I should say about 8-10 years more.

The truth is somewhere in between. Support beyond next year, but certainly not 8-10 more years. Any 2019 Mac Pro owner should consider themselves very lucky if they get 4 more years of macOS support, i.e. including macOS 17.

Back on topic... I appreciate the continued efforts here around Ventura. But nothing I've ready so far leads me to believe pre-Haswell Macs will get OCLP support with the kind of stability we currently get now for Monterey. So I guess Monterey is the end of the line for several of my old Macs. Which I'm actually OK with, because if you don't use Stage Manager or care about the System Settings overhaul, most of Ventura looks and functions just like Monterey.

 

[trifero]

The truth is somewhere in between. Support beyond next year, but certainly not 8-10 more years. Any 2019 Mac Pro owner should consider themselves very lucky if they get 4 more years of macOS support, i.e. including macOS 17.

Back on topic... I appreciate the continued efforts here around Ventura. But nothing I've ready so far leads me to believe pre-Haswell Macs will get OCLP support with the kind of stability we currently get now for Monterey. So I guess Monterey is the end of the line for several of my old Macs. Which I'm actually OK with, because if you don't use Stage Manager or care about the System Settings overhaul, most of Ventura looks and functions just like Monterey.

I disagree. Monterey, launched in 2021, supports Imacs from 2013.

 

[Larsvonhier]

Interesting non-boot scenario on iMac 8,1 (Penryn, Radeon 2600Pro) and also MacBookPro 4,1 (Penryn, 9400M) with Ventura beta 1:
Everything patched so far on external HD (which boots fine on other systems), but last output in verbose is
ACPI: Sleep states S3 S4 S5
from then on, HD still active & busy for minutes (with intervals of inactivity in between which looks like boot progress goes on), but to no avail. Switch from verbose to login never happens.

 

[Larsvonhier]

Ventura beta 1 boot success also on MacPro3,1 (with GT630 GPU and USB3 cards).
Reaches Finder after the initial 1x LoginWindow crash, then quite stable.
Had to plug in mouse&kbd to the additional USB3 card to be recognized. Wifi on replaced (newer) card works (had to be done for proper Monterey Wifi anyways).

 

[Andreas Jordanidis]

Ventura beta 1 boot success also on MacPro3,1 (with GT630 GPU and USB3 cards).
Reaches Finder after the initial 1x LoginWindow crash, then quite stable.
Had to plug in mouse&kbd to the additional USB3 card to be recognized. Wifi on replaced (newer) card works (had to be done for proper Monterey Wifi anyways).

i also have a 3,1, but with a 650 Ti. by reaching finder, do you mean that it was able to boot up and open the aplication finder?