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mpe

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2010
334
205
I disagree, again.
Like i said before, nits are factual entities.
Nits are used to describe the brightness of computer displays. They are objective.
Your subjective perception of the nits is legally irrelevant.

The problem with this argument is that although you are right that the luminance value or "nits" output is a very objective measurement, the number of nits you actually need to comfortably work in environment of your choice is a very subjective one.

The Macbook Air 2018 has average brightness, lower than some other laptops Apple sell. Especially compared to latest generation of Macbook Pro. All reviews and even some Apple marketing materials are clear about that. Many users won't notice any difference until they look side by side.

So if this is such an important feature don't buy it and buy a MBP instead.

I don't see any Apple fault here...
[doublepost=1545060145][/doublepost]My modest theory about the screen brightness:

1. The screen can do 300 nits
2. It is somehow reduced by the firmware in order to meet the same battery life targets as the previous model (apple declare all battery tests are done with display brightness set to 12 clicks from bottom or 75% rather than at specific nits level).
3. As result of the above no "nits" rating is specified in the tech specs in order to not give false data.

Luckily, Apple has a plenty of retail stores to demonstrate Macbooks, generous return policies for those not satisfied. And there is a hundreds of 3rd party reviews all over the internet. Nobody is forced to buy the Macbook Air if not comfortable with display quality. Most people will be fine. For a few is better to look for a different model.

No nitgate for me.
 

villein

macrumors newbie
Dec 17, 2018
15
20
USA
I disagree, again.
Like i said before, nits are factual entities.
They are units of measurement.
Objective science.
Nits are units of measurement of luminance, or the intensity of visible light, where one nit is equal to one candela per square meter.
Nits are used to describe the brightness of computer displays. They are objective.
Your subjective perception of the nits is legally irrelevant.
The nits don't change because of your subjective perception.
600 nits is an objective measurement result, 500 nits is an objective measurement result, 300 nits is an objective measurement result, 234 nits is an objective measurement result... it´s a "quality" of a thing, it´s an "objective property" that defines its substance and its objective functionality.

This is inaccurate. While a nit is a standard unit of brightness measurement, that does not mean that every person perceives it in the same way. Some people have 4 cones in their eyes that allow them to see a lot more variance in colors than the average person with 3 cones. Some people are color blind. Some people are extremely sensitive to light. Some people are fine with the brightness level of their MBA 2018 and some are not. Our eyes and our brains are not uniformly the same and will therefore perceive differences.

Nit is an objective number when comparing it side-by-side to other similar products, but it is also not an exclusive value used to determine the viability of a screen for anyone's purposes. There's also resolution, contrast, black levels, white levels, refresh rates, etc. This is a complex piece of hardware with a lot of ways to customize its appearance.

The Apple website officially states 300 nits for the Macbook Air 2018. Yes, this is not on the page where you expected to see it, but that does not negate the fact that Apple does officially list a nit value on their own website, and that it is 300 nits.

If you would like to determine the nit value of your own display, I recommend reaching out to one of the technical websites that has tested this value to ask how they did it. A quick Google search didn't yield any results for me as to how to do this on your own.

I would also suggest selling the MBA while letting the seller know that the brightness level is at or less than 300 nits. As long as you let the buyer know, I don't see why you can't, in good conscience, sell the device. Like I said, some people will not have an issue with the brightness level.
 

Steve121178

macrumors 603
Apr 13, 2010
6,462
7,167
Bedfordshire, UK
All the reviews I saw complained the screen was dim. All the information relating to brightness/nits was measured by dozens of tech review sites.

In future do some research before spending your money.
 

Mainsail

macrumors 68020
Sep 19, 2010
2,429
3,234
Well, in fairness, there are a lot of specs that can be measured on a laptop. There is no way a manufacturer is going to show all of them on their web site. I suspect that you could go to other laptop manufacturers web sites, and they would not necessarily show specs about screen brightness or nits. So, it is not like it is some kind of universal consumer protection standard requiring disclosure.

Taking the OP’s word for it, I do agree it is strange that Apple displays this spec for some laptops but not others and that the spec only appears in the comparison tool.
 

Joe Cookie

macrumors member
Original poster
Dec 16, 2018
49
9
Well, in fairness, there are a lot of specs that can be measured on a laptop. There is no way a manufacturer is going to show all of them on their web site. I suspect that you could go to other laptop manufacturers web sites, and they would not necessarily show specs about screen brightness or nits. So, it is not like it is some kind of universal consumer protection standard requiring disclosure.

Taking the OP’s word for it, I do agree it is strange that Apple displays this spec for some laptops but not others and that the spec only appears in the comparison tool.

You don't need to take my "word for it", you can see it for yourself here:

Macbook Air 2018(no info about nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-air/specs/

Macbook pro (info available: 500 nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-pro/specs/

Imac (info available: 500 nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/imac/specs/

Imac pro (info available: 500 nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/imac-pro/specs/

Ipad pro (info available: 600 nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/ipad-pro/specs/

If you use the "compare tool", then you get the nits.
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,124
2,706
The nits don't change because of your subjective perception.
You're missing the point. Of course the nits don't change, but your perception does as others have pointed out as well. For some, 300 nits is very bright, for some it's dim. Make a simple experiment, take a reference display, let someone else calibrate to 6500K and set the brightness to specific nit value. Then you can enter the room and look at the display. I seriously doubt you will be able to tell how many nits the display is set to just by looking at it.


If a company advertises 300/400/500 nits and the computer is capable of less nits, we have a faulty product.
No, no and no. I used to develop system solutions for image representation and you can bet that rarely does a display spec live up to the real world performance. What is the 300/400/500 nits based on? Peak brightness? Average? Something else? At what color temperature where these readings taken? What black level? What patterns were used?

Display manufacturers will almost certainly make these measurements with color temperature way off, because brightness will be higher. For a real world application, you want color temperature closer to neutral, which mean's it dimmer. Still, the display can deliver the brightness, just with colours way off. If you want to take all variables out of the equation, you have to specify all parameters, which no manufacturer does. No one will go through the hassle of doing this, especially on a cheap display such as one from a MBA, MBP, iMac or whatever. The reference displays I used in the past were between $10k to $50k for a single display in the range of 20" to 27". And this is not a problem with measurements, I think I used fairly good equipment from Photoresearch and Konica Minolta ($10k to $20k) and in special cases NIST certified equipment ($-six-figure range). I think the equipment was accurate enough to take reliable measures. That's why you always buy more brightness than you actually need, because the end result will always show less. That's a well known fact in the industry. Look at any calibration report for any given display.


Defending Apple using the "oh, they say its 300 nits but its 230 or whatever less.. its normal" is something beyond words.
It's the way it is, from every manufacturer. Name a single display device that lives up to the brightness spec. Why don't you go out, buy a Sony VW5000ES, which is an excellent device (at $65k it should be!), calibrate it and report back how much of those 5000 lumens in the spec sheet are left. It's not just brightness, it's CR measurements as well, among others. These are made under conditions you will never have in the real world. And if you think this in an exception, you're in for a surprise. Again, get the proper equipment to measure and start doing it. You won't like the results.


I have the right to know from Appple the objective measurement results of a product that i'm buying.
What makes you think that? Apple doesn't have to provide anything. They can, but they don't have to. If you don't like that, don't buy it. And besides, they're specifying the MBA as 300 nits. They do not specify under what conditions and they don't have to, no manufacturer does. Everyone knows this is marketing and the real numbers are lower.

If you need more specific numbers, ask the display manufacturer to provide them including parameters for the conditions these measurements were made (Apple probably doesn't know, because they just buy the displays). If you need specific numbers for your MBA, buy the proper equipment and measure. Or let a calibrator do it for you. Those that have at least basic knowledge are most likely listed at the Imaging Science Foundation.
 
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Joe Cookie

macrumors member
Original poster
Dec 16, 2018
49
9
You're missing the point. Of course the nits don't change, but your perception does as others have pointed out as well. For some, 300 nits is very bright, for some it's dim. Make a simple experiment, take a reference display, let someone else calibrate to 6500K and set the brightness to specific nit value. Then you can enter the room and look at the display. I seriously doubt you will be able to tell how many nits the display is set to just by looking at it.



No, no and no. I used to develop system solutions for image representation and you can bet that rarely does a display spec live up to the real world performance. What is the 300/400/500 nits based on? Peak brightness? Average? Something else? At what color temperature where these readings taken? What black level? What patterns were used?

Display manufacturers will almost certainly make these measurements with color temperature way off, because brightness will be higher. For a real world application, you want color temperature closer to neutral, which mean's it dimmer. Still, the display can deliver the brightness, just with colours way off. If you want to take all variables out of the equation, you have to specify all parameters, which no manufacturer does. No one will go through the hassle of doing this, especially on a cheap display such as one from a MBA, MBP, iMac or whatever. The reference displays I used in the past were between $10k to $50k for a single display in the range of 20" to 27". And this is not a problem with measurements, I think I used fairly good equipment from Photoresearch and Konica Minolta ($10k to $20k) and in special cases NIST certified equipment ($-six-figure range). I think the equipment was accurate enough to take reliable measures. That's why you always buy more brightness than you actually need, because the end result will always show less. That's a well known fact in the industry. Look at any calibration report for any given display.



It's the way it is, from every manufacturer. Name a single display device that lives up to the brightness spec. Why don't you go out, buy a Sony VW5000ES, which is an excellent device (at $65k it should be!), calibrate it and report back how much of those 5000 lumens in the spec sheet are left. It's not just brightness, it's CR measurements as well, among others. These are made under conditions you will never have in the real world. And if you think this in an exception, you're in for a surprise. Again, get the proper equipment to measure and start doing it. You won't like the results.



What makes you think that? Apple doesn't have to provide anything. They can, but they don't have to. If you don't like that, don't buy it. And besides, they're specifying the MBA as 300 nits. They do not specify under what conditions and they don't have to, no manufacturer does. Everyone knows this is marketing and the real numbers are lower.

If you need more specific numbers, ask the display manufacturer to provide them including parameters for the conditions these measurements were made (Apple probably doesn't know, because they just buy the displays). If you need specific numbers for your MBA, buy the proper equipment and measure. Or let a calibrator do it for you. Those that have at least basic knowledge are most likely listed at the Imaging Science Foundation.

Also important to take in consideration:

General FTC Advertising Rules

Under the watchful eye of the FTC, the following general advertising rules must be followed:
  • Ads must be truthful and non-deceptive
  • Businesses must have evidence to back up their claims
  • Ads can't be unfair, meaning the advertisement can't cause substantial injury to consumers that consumers can't reasonably avoid. For example, ads cannot make claims about health benefits that will lead reasonable consumers to buying a product, who only find out later that the product is actually harmful.
The FTC wields enormous power in enforcement and will first attempt to work out claims privately with the advertiser. If the advertiser doesn't comply, the FTC can sue the company on behalf of harmed consumers and force the advertiser to run new ads that correct statements or implications of previously false, deceptive, or unfair ads.

I already wrote to Apple asking for detailed info about the nits.

After asking 3 diff people working at AppleCare, 1 "apple hardware expert" and 1 apple salesperson, and getting "we don't have that info", i wrote to Apple asking them about the nits.

I'm waiting for a reply.

Under USA federal law and under the european laws, they have to back up their claim of the "300 nits" (if it's even a claim...) with evidence.

The thing about science is that you need the evidence.

If you advertise a fact as a "product property", you need the evidence.
 
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GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,124
2,706
Well, you already have evidence that someone got at least 234 nits out of it. Make a few adjustments to the driver, go nuts on the color temperature and you'll hit 300, no problem. You color will be way off, blacks and whites probably be crushed at the end of the scale, but you'll reach it. Keep us updated on the results.
 

Mainsail

macrumors 68020
Sep 19, 2010
2,429
3,234
You don't need to take my "word for it", you can see it for yourself here:

Macbook Air 2018(no info about nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-air/specs/

Macbook pro (info available: 500 nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-pro/specs/

Imac (info available: 500 nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/imac/specs/

Imac pro (info available: 500 nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/imac-pro/specs/

Ipad pro (info available: 600 nits):
https://www.apple.com/uk/ipad-pro/specs/

If you use the "compare tool", then you get the nits.

Yeah, I wasn't really doubting you. I just didn't bother to check it myself, so it was your assertion.....which is fine. I understood your point and your frustration.

I am wondering with hindsight if there are things you would have done differently. For example, was there a lesson learned about fully understanding the reseller's return policies prior to purchasing a new recently released device? There can always be surprises that don't show on a spec sheet but might effect the desirability of a device.

Here is a Youtube Reviewer that ran into a similar return policy problem for a very different performance issue (video editing performance) that made the MBA the wrong device for him.

 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,403
13,287
where hip is spoken
Because it´s the first time i have such a dim screen, i always had apple computers with brighter screens... this is the first time i even heard about this problem being a thing.

And like i said before, you are saying i should have done research, but how can it would be possible if the website doesnt show the nits and even the apple guys said they didnt know the info...
You bought it sight-unseen. That's on you.

If the manufacturer doesn't specify the nits, and that is important to you, then you (A) hold off buying it until you find that information out... there are plenty of review sites that would provide that information or (B) buy from a seller with a reasonable return policy.
 

kooky

macrumors member
Jan 16, 2017
48
17
I did use the comparison page to find the nits before I bought mine. I also bought mine at apple retail so I have a return option until January (extended because of Christmas). That’s why I always buy at Apple for that little “insurance”.

However. On Apple’s comparison page the number 300 is given which is identical to the 12” MacBook, also 300. I based my decision on this. The MacBook is brighter when compared side by side, and with better contrast. Photos look much more real-life on the MacBook. So 300 is not 300.

I’m not here to whinge and will return mine within my return period. I do really want an Air for the bigger screen size and I had a faint glimmer of hope there was variance in production, given some users have their brightness much less than 100%, but how to find such a machine. Therefore I think I’ll just have to stay with the MacBook until the Air refresh. Don’t want the Pro because it’s for the sofa so I want something light.
 
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kooky

macrumors member
Jan 16, 2017
48
17
I hope this and other threads can concentrate on the topic of display brightness/nits/quality, and cease discussing change-of-mind return policies. It is up to the buyer to check return policies before they buy. Many people know that only Apple retail stores offer 14 day change-of-mind refunds, which is a benefit of convenience that you pay full price for. If you didn’t know that, then you learn the hard way.

Change of mind return policy is an irrelevant topic of conversation that has nothing to do with the technical issues relating to the Air screen which is what the subject is about. If we’re here to discuss return policies then change the subject, change the forum. Thank you from all of us.
 

DVD9

macrumors 6502a
Feb 18, 2010
817
581
And it gets better.... after some research, i read tech experts saying the new macbook air maxed out in tests at 234 NITS!

Yes I've watched two different reviewers on YouTube do tests on the Air vs the cheapo non-touch bar 13" and get a reading like this. The "new" Air has one of the dimmest screens you can buy. The screen also has a color garment about 45% of the cheapo 13" Pro model that Apple is going to discontinue.

If you pay more than $599 for the new Air then you paid too much.
 
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mac_in_tosh

macrumors 6502a
Nov 6, 2016
597
6,338
Earth
You bought it sight-unseen. That's on you.

If the manufacturer doesn't specify the nits, and that is important to you, then you (A) hold off buying it until you find that information out... there are plenty of review sites that would provide that information or (B) buy from a seller with a reasonable return policy.

I think for an expensive machine that "just works" it's reasonable for screen brightness not to be a pre-purchase concern. One doesn't always know what will be important beforehand. I've purchased several Mac laptops over the years and this is the first I've even heard of the "nit" spec. And from what I've read, OP isn't the only one disappointed with the screen brightness.
 

Aurora823

macrumors newbie
Nov 16, 2018
28
12
Holy cow that's huge. Thanks for posting this!

I wonder if there's anywhere in your email history (or even on the receipt) that might have the old serial (maybe it's still in your apple id at appleid.apple.com?). I have a 256GB FV and I find it's lousy and washed out, that's for sure. Now I gotta look through old threads and see if there's anything that corroborates brightness of 128 > 256, I'm sure I remember one person posting about 128GB who was happy.

I actually did come across the serial number for the 256 gb I purchased...it also was FV...so hmm...certain ssds have better displays?...I mean my god this 128 gb is amazingly BRIGHT and vibrant...I had to turn the brightness down...I could never say that with the 256 gb one...Ah I just wish this one had more storage! These software updates eat up so much space! It seems as though with apple it's not uncommon for certain ssds to have issues (like the 2017 MacBook Pros where the 128gb and 256gb had ssd issues..I know that's just related to ssd in that case..but yea..) Maybe the QC is not good on the new MacBook Airs..
 

Joe Cookie

macrumors member
Original poster
Dec 16, 2018
49
9
I think for an expensive machine that "just works" it's reasonable for screen brightness not to be a pre-purchase concern. One doesn't always know what will be important beforehand. I've purchased several Mac laptops over the years and this is the first I've even heard of the "nit" spec. And from what I've read, OP isn't the only one disappointed with the screen brightness.

This is a very serious issue.

This is my MBA2018 vs. my Imac2013 (500 nits).

IMG_4573.jpg


photo2.jpg


PHOTOapple.jpg
 
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Ma2k5

macrumors 68030
Dec 21, 2012
2,565
2,540
London
Although it is obvious this screen is less than bright the Pro 500nit screens, I wonder why it was made less bright/colourful than the 12" MacBook.

Does anyone know if the new MacBook Air's perhaps use Intel's low power display technology (some other manufacturers have been using 1-watt or 1.5-watt displays).
 

mpe

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2010
334
205
This is a very serious issue.

This is my MBA2018 vs. my Imac2013 (500 nits).

Wow. Looks like the 500 nits screen is indeed brighter. Who would thought that! Perhaps laws of physics actually worked here.

I still don't understand what and why exactly do you think this a very serious issue.

The MBA doesn't have specs of some other products. I'd love having the same 1000 nits OLED display as on my Apple watch...
 
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Joe Cookie

macrumors member
Original poster
Dec 16, 2018
49
9
Wow. Looks like the 500 nits screen is indeed brighter. Who would thought that! Perhaps laws of physics actually worked here.

I still don't understand what and why exactly do you think this a very serious issue.

The MBA doesn't have specs of some other products. I'd love having the same 1000 nits OLED display as on my Apple watch...


This is the problem, this is a very serious issue:


"That's not the only difference we noticed. Laptop Mag found the new MacBook Air's screen brightness is capped at 234 nits, while the 13-inch MacBook Pro averages 458 nits. Not only that, but the previous generation MacBook Air measured in at 336 nits of brightness. "

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...rsus-13-inch-macbook-pro-and-2017-macbook-air


"While Apple rates the Air's panel as capable of producing 300 nits of brightness, our unit maxed out at 234 nits"

https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/apple-macbook-air-2018


You don´t have to be a genius to get it...
 

mpe

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2010
334
205
As I said before. Perhaps they just wanted to hit the same 12 hours battery life as the previous Macbook and that's why they slightly reduced the maximum brightness in firmware (and that's why they don't advertise the nits value in the specs). For some reason they measure battery life not calibrated at any specific brightness level, but rather at 75% level of the max.

Most laptops on the market have between 200-300 so even if they had 234 it is still average.

I'd love to have the same screen as on the MPB (and preferably with MBA battery life and battery weight) for occasional outdoor use when I am on beach holidays, but sadly 2018 model isn't there yet. Perhaps the next model...

Indoors I find it perfectly fine.
 
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Ma2k5

macrumors 68030
Dec 21, 2012
2,565
2,540
London
As I said before. Perhaps they just wanted to hit the same 12 hours battery life as the previous Macbook and that's why they slightly reduced the maximum brightness in firmware (and that's why they don't advertise the nits value in the specs). For some reason they measure battery life not at nits leve, but rather at 75% level of the max.

Most laptops on the market have between 200-300 so even if they had 234 it is still average.

I'd love to have the same screen as on the MPB (and preferably with MBA battery life and battery weight) for occasional outdoor use when I am on beach holidays, but sadly 2018 model isn't there yet. Perhaps the next model...

Indoors I find it perfectly fine.

You shouldn’t compare to most laptops. Most laptops are plastic, shall Apple follow suit?

The premium end are 300 minimum, XPS 13 is 400+, there is some 500 nit Lenovo panel too etc.

The Air overall is “fine”, is probably the best overview of the product (thanks Marcus).
 

Joe Cookie

macrumors member
Original poster
Dec 16, 2018
49
9
As I said before. Perhaps they just wanted to hit the same 12 hours battery life as the previous Macbook and that's why they slightly reduced the maximum brightness in firmware (and that's why they don't advertise the nits value in the specs). For some reason they measure battery life not at nits leve, but rather at 75% level of the max.

Most laptops on the market have between 200-300 so even if they had 234 it is still average.

I'd love to have the same screen as on the MPB (and preferably with MBA battery life and battery weight) for occasional outdoor use when I am on beach holidays, but sadly 2018 model isn't there yet. Perhaps the next model...

Indoors I find it perfectly fine.

I'm not talking about beach conditions, i'm talking about indoor use.

Today is very very cloudly, super dark outside.

I usually don't go with my imac to the beach...


IMG_4573.jpg
 
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mpe

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2010
334
205
All your picture shows is two screens and one is brighter than the other one at your camera exposure. You could put a 1000 nit screen and it will be brighter still. It doesn't say anything about how is it like to use the MBA.

The question is whether the objectively lower brightness can produce some issues during normal use. I would say for most people not unless they want to use it outdoors. MBA would be more compelling with a 500 nits screen (or a quad-core CPU, 512GB SSD in standard, ...), but it is not a deal breaker. Definitely not see any nit gate, false advertisement or anything like that.

I actually don't own the new MBA yet. Only tested it a couple of times and most likely will order it as I like iy. My daily driver is still 2014 15" MBP (measured about 286 nits or so in review). I am using it at about 4 clicks down from max. I also have an iMac Pro with 500 nits which I never use at the max as there is no reason for it IMHO.
 
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kooky

macrumors member
Jan 16, 2017
48
17
I returned mine to Apple today and will watch for newer builds coming out of the factory.

As everyone is aware, some posters have had multiple 2018 Airs and have confirmed variances in brightness between them. It seems plain luck if you get a good or bad one.

Based on everything I’ve read I’m tipping it’s similar to the iPhone 7 hissing and yellow screen issue, where early builds pre-calendar week 45 or so had issues.

If you look at this thread
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2573137
And do find for
week 38
week 40
week 41
etc

You’ll see posts like
“Of all the week 41s I've seen the screen has been the most inconsistent of all batches. Week 38s were better apart from hiss” and so forth.

I watched this thread before buying and saved myself the headache. I bought a week 47 in the end once everyone posted there were no more issues.

I believe Apple never publically acknowledged this issue as far as I remember.

The Air seems the same kind of routine again. I bet it’ll be fixed quietly.
 

Ploki

macrumors 601
Jan 21, 2008
4,324
1,560
Dude, you're in the EU. Base EU law is 14-day return period *no question asked*, if you reseller says otherwise he's lying because he doesn't want to deal with it.

If you knew the problem from the start and didn't return it within that period that's your fault, and it will be extremely hard to convince apple otherwise, and they will always fall back to the "this is between you and your reseller".

My i9 was faulty, had a flickering display - and I didn't notice until 14day return period was over, and i quibbled with apple and reseller for two months before i got a refund. and it was a defect, not a "nonspecified-works-as-expected-function"

You will have to go through hell and back with apple to prove them your display has less than advertised nits and that they're out of design specifications - measure the laptop in controlled environment by a professional. Else it just won't hold.
 
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