Apple should support their Macs and macOS operating systems for longer…………………
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PCs last longer than Macs
- Thread starter iHorseHead
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I've never really had any computer break on me, so that I can't power it on. How are you people treating your stuff?
PCs last longer than Macs because they get security patches and updates for longer.
I see you've never really used a PC and are from the US, so you probably grew up in Apple world. It's not like that in the rest of the world.
Then you need to be willing to pay more for your MacBooks, because that support cost is baked into the hardware price. Most consumers would prefer a $100 cheaper price over an extra year or two of OS support for an old, slow PC.
And again, screaming bloody murder here in the forums won’t do anyone any good. Just go buy a Windows PC that you think will fit your needs better. The same way my frustration with Microsoft got me to switch to Mac.
I personally wouldn't trust anything from Google long term outside of Android and their top services such as gmail.
Any linux distro or windows will work great on most of the intel machines.
We already are paying premium price for Apple products though? Macs are and always have been much more expensive.
What percent of users keep a computer that long, PC or Mac? 1%? Apple should be designing computers for that 1%?
My parents have a Vaio from ~2010 and it sucks and is slow as molasses. Security updates or not, not many people are going to subject themselves to using a computer that is >10x slower than something more recent.
I assume since we’re even discussing security updates we’re talking about using it on the web. Any old computer on it’s original OS will continue to run the software designed for it, disconnected from the internet
My parents have a Vaio from ~2010 and it sucks and is slow as molasses. Security updates or not, not many people are going to subject themselves to using a computer that is >10x slower than something more recent.
I assume since we’re even discussing security updates we’re talking about using it on the web. Any old computer on it’s original OS will continue to run the software designed for it, disconnected from the internet
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Have you checked whether there's a EFI/BIOS update available? My i3 Windows desktop required one for the Windows 11 installer to be happy.
My main beef is the fact that even those 1-2 years of security updates come with a ”if you’re lucky” disclaimer. Apple themselves state that only the latest release is properly supported: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/deployment/depc4c80847a/web
From that and what happened with the Rootpipe vulnerability (around 2015 if I recall correctly), you can make an argument that once your Mac doesn’t get the latest OS version, you’re practically out of support even if there’s a 1-2 year period of partial support.
That combined with iOS 18 missing almost every interesting (to me) feature here in the EU, I might also be going to the other side of the fence with my next primary devices. As much as I prefer e.g. Apple touchpads to their PC counterparts, the software side is getting problematic.
I bought a Windows Desktop in 2011 for 1,100€. Tax included. 2014 I upgraded the HDD to a SSD for 150€, tax included. Last update with new features in 2021 and the hardware is officially supported from Microsoft until October 2025.
So, how much do I need to pay to get an Apple Computer with (2021-2011) ten years new features and 14 years of support? I can just hope that my 3.500€ tax included MacBook Pro from 2017 will get most important(!) security updates until 2025.
I don't understand your second paragraph either.
As soon as something goes wrong at Microsoft, Macrumors reports with relish and blatantly points to the much better Mac. The forums always say "This wouldn't have happened with Apple. If only everyone had Apple, the world would be a much safer place."
But as soon as Simeon points to the official figures, MacRumors and their fans shut down. Instead of accepting criticism and realizing that Microsoft or Ubuntu can do better, they prefer to kick out critics. "Then why don't you stick with Microsoft and shut up, you hater". That's how the posts sound here.
A little thought:
Could it be that products only get better through competition and that a company only corrects its mistakes through objective criticism? And could it be that most people don't want to spend €3,000 on a computer and therefore Microsoft will always be the better choice for security thanks to updates, because Apple doesn't want to provide them?
In any case, I know that I can't recommend a Mac for the ordinary user. Features like Sidecar are not worth €1,000 to them. And if I tell "You'll have to spend another thousand after five years, because Apple doesn’t release updates any more", I'm declared crazy.
Oh, you sure do. Microsoft even shows you how to install Windows 11 on “unsupported” Windows PCs, but Apple doesn't. That's the difference. Apple just deliberately obsoletes the older hardware, just to keep on selling newer hardware. You know that quite well. The regulating bodies also know that, so one day there would be tough fines for that deliberate obsoleting, at least in the countries, where those regulating bodies are consumer-friendly.
Not really. If the Intel machine has dual graphics, the bootcamp won't recognise the Intel graphics as the default, and turns to AMD graphics, which then makes the MacBook get heated up, with fans going all the time. Bootcamp only "allows" Windows 10, officially. It is practically hard to install, any Linux on a T2 Mac, or at all. If anyone can show how to install Linux on a T2 MacBook, I'd be happy for the advice.
Then use a windows computer? Idk why it’s such an existential crisis for you.
You seem to be mixing hardware support (which is PC vendor responsibility) and software support (Microsoft) in the discussion, which complicates the matter because Apple is primarily a hardware company and Microsoft a software company. But let me see if I can make this easier.
Apple: Generally around 10 years of hardware support w/ software support for the latest OS running on the said hardware. So right now, Apple provides hardware repairs and OS security updates for most Macintosh sold 2015 and later (on macOS Monterey).
PC: PC hardware support, including parts availability and driver updates, will depend on the vendor but most reputable vendors around 5 years. My old ThinkPad T410s I bought in 2010 had its last driver update on 2015 and EOL for parts availability around the same time. Microsoft’s own Surface Pro 6 from 2018 EOL-ed in 2023. Any hardware problem, whether broken hardware or driver issue will not be addressed. And they’re the better ones.
OS side, Microsoft as a software company will set their minimum requirements. But since they’re *not* the hardware vendor they will not be responsible if something goes wrong, even if you meet that requirement. The 10 year support for Windows only applies to whether that OS in itself runs without security issues.
So technically, no, Microsoft does not “officially support” your 2011 desktop PC, especially if it doesn’t even have the TPM 2.0 that Microsoft actually set as their minimum requirement. If they run or don’t run, that’s fully your responsibility. And if you do like that “no one will be responsible for you but you‘re free to do what you want” type environment, both Windows and Linux will serve you a lot better.
Good post, Apples ***** Macbook support is something that has annoyed me for many years now. And it doesn't help that they release new OS every year and stop supporting the older ones quite fast compared to MS.
I do hope this gets pulled up by the EU or bigger countries so that they can push Apple to support older OS with security patches (goes for all OS, iOS etc) as long as they are being used.
At least offer some sort of subscription fee or similar and let people get the opportunity to update the software instead of having to bin perfectly good hardware just cuz its out of support.
Once again, I don't understand why people are against more software support. My step brother used his HP laptop from 2004 to 2016 as his main PC. It was able to run Windows 7, believe it or not but he's into Linux and it ran okay.
If you don't upgrade MacBook Pro from mid 2010 it'll be slow as well. This "What percentage of users keeps a computer for that long?" is reminds me of the times when I told Android fanboys that iPhone gets updates for longer. That was also their answer that no one uses their phone for that long. Such attitude is so weird. You could make your parents Vaio fast and usable and well, I used my MacBook Pro for ages and also my MacBook 4,1. Paid over a $1000 and it was supported from 2008 - 2011, which isn't that long time for a computer and to top it all off, it ran the unsupported Mountain Lion better than Lion. People on Apple Discussions keep asking about software support and as soon as you mention OpenCoreLegacyPatcher it gets deleted and the post that say: "You should upgrade your Mac to a newer one because Apple recommends that you run the latest release of macOS" stay. Your argument is exactly what I'm against for. Also, quite recently, a couple years ago MacBook Air (2017) was sold everywhere and even Apple sold it on Amazon for $700 and now it'll stop receiving software updates in the fall. An average person doesn't really do their research. I still don't see what's wrong with wanting Apple to support their Operating Systems a couple years longer, because Macs become absolutely unusable once they stop receiving updates and it's so weird that Apple drops the support for their apps so fast too. Can you run the latest version of pages on Monterey? Absolutely not.
The situation was a bit better with 2 year release cycle. Why make people throw away perfectly good hardware? I'm sure a trillion dollar company would be able to support their operating systems for a little longer, but it's not like Apple's going to read that and give us an explanation, but the point was that MacBooks are like Androids. Pretty much lack of the support. Android fanboys tell the same thing when you tell them that iPads are supported for longer and they're like: "Who's gonna use it for that long?", well, many people actually would if the systems were more up to date and people wouldn't keep telling them to buy a new Mac and yet Apple claiming that they care about the environment. I hardly think that they do. I have no idea why people are protecting such practices and the video I posted was right. You can get out of your PC so much more if you could upgrade it. I wanna see how long the 8GB MacBook Pro will be supported that costs now $3200 in my country. Let me remind you that over here I could pay 4 months of rent with that money or buy a used car or buy a PC that I know will most likely be supported for much longer and have much better specs in general.
I really don't understand why people take it personally. You will not be getting a discount for defending Apple's behaviour nor their products nor is Apple your friend. They have more or less of a predatory behaviour the way I see it.
To me the MacBook Air is the definition of “worth it”. Finding a better overall package at that price is impossible and everything about it would suck. It’d have a bad display, trackpad experience would be way worse, speakers, build quality etc. would be nowhere near. Same with battery to performance. Windows computers are currently just worse value, if you’re a casual user and not going for a MacBook Pro - those are certainly overpriced right now for an 8GB machine where you’re also sharing that for GPU memory. It somewhat justifies it that when you upgrade RAM you’re technically also upgrading your video memory.
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There are not. They are in a sort of a captive situation, and have developed positive feelings toward their captor -- the manufacturer cannot be ever wrong in whatever it does.
That said, I use a 2018 Intel 15" MBP for daily work/leisure now. I've been using Windows since 80s last century, then Linux and Windows in multi booting environment. Finally moved to MacBook, just to use macOS. I have gone through Big Sur, Monterey, Ventura , Sonoma and now in Sequoia Beta 2. It is just one macOs, changes every year, because development must be there, and cannot be stopped. But, I see mostly eye-candy, rather than something serious in base macOS. Finder, Preview, Books, Safari etc had not changed much or at all. MS Word and Excel worked in all those yearly-name-variants just the same. The 2018 MBP would just as nicely work for next 5 years, with or without any-new-name macOS. And, with the best ever Touch Bar.
Even though I have bootcamp Windows 11, I rarely go there. I wish I could install some Linux on that partition, for example, the eye-candy, but highly useful Deepen 23. If anyone knows how to install Linux in a T2 MacBook, I'm all ears. 😊
I think longer "official" support could be solved in so many ways, but its mostly down to money.
Sure, sometimes its down to HW issues and security flaws that can't be fixed, but Apple could at least try to create a workaround or offer some sort of a solution than just dumping the support for the product.
A few ideas off the top of my head to provide better/longer support/lifecycle could be...
* Offer an extended support like MS does, you pay every year to get support to the OS
* Every 5 year make one OS version a "long term OS" and offer support for that for a longer time.
** Be open with what continued development cost and let users pay a break even cost.
** If 10.000 users pay $50 every year for continued support for the long term OS that's enough to employ at least 5 full-time developers to just work on updates.
* Offer the "Macbook as a service"
** Will make Apple the ability to make money throughout the whole lifecycle rather than just upfront.
** Secondhand devices can offered as a service for less money.
Sure, sometimes its down to HW issues and security flaws that can't be fixed, but Apple could at least try to create a workaround or offer some sort of a solution than just dumping the support for the product.
A few ideas off the top of my head to provide better/longer support/lifecycle could be...
* Offer an extended support like MS does, you pay every year to get support to the OS
* Every 5 year make one OS version a "long term OS" and offer support for that for a longer time.
** Be open with what continued development cost and let users pay a break even cost.
** If 10.000 users pay $50 every year for continued support for the long term OS that's enough to employ at least 5 full-time developers to just work on updates.
* Offer the "Macbook as a service"
** Will make Apple the ability to make money throughout the whole lifecycle rather than just upfront.
** Secondhand devices can offered as a service for less money.
Honestly, I was just pointing out your double negative
Ok, once again for you and everyone else:
The operating system on the computer purchased in 2011 has received ten years of new features from Microsoft (with an upgrade to Windows 10). And the Windows 10 operating system will receive full security updates on the computer purchased in 2011 until the end of 2025.
My MacBook Pro 2017 got the last features in 2022. That's five years. So half as long as Microsoft.
And Apple itself has confirmed that only those who upgrade to the new system will receive all security updates. So five years compared to fourteen years by Microsoft.
(And don't come out with "But you have to upgrade the system for that."
Apple could offer that too. If they wanted to. That's why I don't care as a user. The fact is, with Microsoft, the computer is fourteen years up to date and therefore the most secure, with Apple it's five.)
Where am I mixing things up?
We're talking about support from the operating system.
Don't interpret support from the hardware manufacturer, which I haven't mentioned anywhere.
PS
We're not even talking about basic computer technologies. Take WPA3, for example.
While Microsoft provides this standard for all computers that run Windows 10, Apple has linked integration to Catalina in 2023. Security only for current devices, that is apparently Apple's policy.
That's honestly too little. And Apple artificially removes features. I remember when Night shift didn't work on my MacBook Pro mid 2010, because it's too "old", yet flux and Windows 10's night light worked fine. There are many other features that could work but Apple keeps removing from older computers, such as 3D maps on Intel Macs etc.
Also, for the price of MacBook Pro 8GB I could get Asus laptop with 64GB of RAM, which will be supported for longer than MacBook Pro 8GB. I'm sorry but asking $3200 for 8GB of MacBook Pro is kind of absurd.
Apple could and should provide security updates for at least 5 years after they drop the support. My work laptop is from 2017 and yeah, it's mostly connected to the docking station with 3 external displays and my manager asked me if they could upgrade it to Windows 11 (it also offers it under software updates), but I opted out, because after that I'll never get to use Windows 10 ever again, but still, it's still a lot more support than MacBooks receive software wise + security updates and I don't have to worry that it'll be out of date any time soon. My work PC isn't slow or laggy or anything. It works normally. It's really sad that people support Apple and many Apple users of Apple Discussion forums are like: "Just buy a new Mac" and if one mentions about OpenCore Legacy Patcher it gets deleted. Next Monterey will be dropped and it won't receive any security updates nor newer versions of Safari. It can't even run Pages anymore and back in 2020 MacBook Air 2017 was sold everywhere, even by Apple on Amazon and it's crazy to think that it'll be obsolete in about 3 months. I definitely think Apple should release security updates for Monterey at least for another 2-3 years. People defending Apple in that regard seems so unreal for me. I'm glad that at least someone understands me. Thank you
Nobody with any serious interest in computers is running Windows on a 16 year old laptop; it will have been supplanted for Linux long ago. Windows is an OS that people begrudgingly use, either for work or compatibility. If you’re a tinkerer Linux is a lot more satisfying to use, potentially having to patch things yourself.
Perhaps not 2008 but I use a 2011 Mac Mini as my main home computer. It still connects to all iCloud services and using the shared albums in Photos I can still send things to Aperture for editing. It will be a cold day in hell before I pay any subscriptions to Adobe!
Perhaps not 2008 but I use a 2011 Mac Mini as my main home computer. It still connects to all iCloud services and using the shared albums in Photos I can still send things to Aperture for editing. It will be a cold day in hell before I pay any subscriptions to Adobe!
I just fired up my Late MacBook 13” from 2008 three days ago and it actually runs pretty well considering its age. I use it as a media hub of sorts now. Also have a 16” 2019 MacBook Pro that’s my everyday machine. But I doubt a basic windows machine from 2008 would just work with out help for an average user.