Safari on macos 12 is so clean and functional

[dburkhanaev]

There is space still do drag the safari window at the top. see the video

View attachment 1789841

I don't think the claim was that you couldn't. I think the aggravation (unnecessary) is that the space is so tiny you really have to zero in on that to not hit an open tab that you aren't currently using. Because god forbid you click on one of thirty open tabs you're not actually using at the moment and then try to get back to where you were before inside this very ill-considered UI.

It really wasn't well thought out. This is well below what I expect from Apple.

 

[dburkhanaev]

opinions, which is fine. just... opinions are not facts. also, who knows what will change between now and the official os 12 release?

also, which apple are we discussing? outside of some flirtation years ago with themes, apple has never been much for a 'customizable' anything.

The workflow and eye-tracking isn't an opinion. That it's horribly ill-considered and clumsy and not efficient and poor in terms of user customization- those are opinions. But there are reasons why UX engineers make the choices that they do. The choices here were made for UI aesthetics. I'll reach out to a few of my colleagues who work in UX engineering and I'll see if these were functional choices or for looks. But I know enough from my career experience to understand how our hands and eyes move across a workspace and the floating tabs aren't it. That isn't the only problem with usability but it's certainly the worst offender that I can see. But if you want some "facts" about the interface I'll talk to some pros who have a couple of decades a piece in the landscape of engineering for the user experience.

 

[fisherking]

The workflow and eye-tracking isn't an opinion. That it's horribly ill-considered and clumsy and not efficient and poor in terms of user customization- those are opinions. But there are reasons why UX engineers make the choices that they do. The choices here were made for UI aesthetics. I'll reach out to a few of my colleagues who work in UX engineering and I'll see if these were functional choices or for looks. But I know enough from my career experience to understand how our hands and eyes move across a workspace and the floating tabs aren't it. That isn't the only problem with usability but it's certainly the worst offender that I can see. But if you want some "facts" about the interface I'll talk to some pros who have a couple of decades a piece in the landscape of engineering for the user experience.

all i see here are your opinions about things; those things themselves are facts, but to assume a giant corporation like apple doesn't consider what it's doing is absurb.... even if they have made missteps. maybe this will prove to be a misstep, or... maybe not. only time will tell. but really, i respect your right to your opinions, and the opinions of your friends, or 'pros'... or whatever.

 

[dburkhanaev]

opinions, which is fine. just... opinions are not facts. also, who knows what will change between now and the official os 12 release?

also, which apple are we discussing? outside of some flirtation years ago with themes, apple has never been much for a 'customizable' anything.

I don't know how long you've been a user of macOS, but once upon a time MacOS ten was actually more customizable than it is today. You could customize the layout finder and the shortcuts therein. You could add custom colors and images into individual windows and the desktop wallpaper itself. System-wide font changes and all kinds of things you could do in MacOS ten until about the shift to Intel. Not saying that the system isn't much improved. But pull an old Powerbook out and see how much you can do with the OS UI. Much of that has been aesthetically locked down in recent years and you have to use the terminal to force some changes into the system including the ability to install unsigned apps.

There has definitely been a change in the mindset at Apple about how users should interact with the OS and their devices. I've been using Apple products since Apple DOS on Apple IIe. But we aren't going to get what we want as users unless we ask for it. I'm not changing my entire workflow to wrap myself around Apple engineers or those at Mozilla or anywhere else because it looks pretty. Any interface where you have to hunt in the UI to find the address bar for the page you are on is a side quest game that you waste time playing while actually trying to get work done. I'm all for new things but playing novelty for something shiny and new is a game for teenagers and children not grown folks who spend thousands of dollars on hardware with an expectation of professional-level software.

 

[11235813]

Apple wants computers to be like washing machines or refrigerators. I can't customize the buttons on my washing machine, but it works. I used to hate this idea when I was on Windows+Android, and it still took me a while to understand the philosophy after I moved to MacOS+iOS, but I get it now. Computers are there to use, not to geek out customizing stuff. It's supposed to just work, as simply as possible. Once you get it, you understand what a genius Steve Jobs was. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

 

[vmachiel]

I find chasing tabs and search bar around a big mess and truly annoying... tabs on the left and on the right, then all on the right, then the search bar on the left, always resizing search bar... a TRULY MESS... what in their right mind were they thinking of!

Just tell me you can make if function more like the current version.

 

[dburkhanaev]

Apple wants computers to be like washing machines or refrigerators. I can't customize the buttons on my washing machine, but it works. I used to hate this idea when I was on Windows+Android, and it still took me a while to understand the philosophy after I moved to MacOS+iOS, but I get it now. Computers are there to use, not to geek out customizing stuff. It's supposed to just work, as simply as possible. Once you get it, you understand what a genius Steve Jobs was. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

It’s not like your washing machine. It’s not simple and it doesn’t just work. Now there’s no argument for a sophisticated software to not have customization for users who have many different use cases. We aren’t all just randomly googling words, hitting YouTube, and checking gmail. Some of us are developers and graphics designers, and writers and all sorts of things.

A full fledged app like Safari has the power to have a simplified use set by default, which is what happens when you open Safari for the first time. But preferences and customize toolbar option exist for users who need to go beyond that. There’s no argument against customization or simplification when both can be achieved in the same app through user interface.

And unlike your washer or dryer or dishwasher, Safari 15 isn’t simple and it doesn’t just work. If it were the UI elements for searching and inputting web pages would be fixed along side some simple navigation buttons. Just like your washer and dryer has a cycle knob and a settings and you’re on your way.

If your washer was like Safari 15 in Monterey, the cycle knobs and settings buttons would be combined, but they would jump all along the control panel every other time you open your lid so that you’d have to hunt down the correct cycle and setting every time you go to load some clothes. Could you imagine just wanting to throw in a small load of towels but the buttons and knobs that you set were on the left side of the panel last time, but are on the opposite side today and in a different order and you had to seek out where the knob was in an array of similar looking knobs that were all not active at the same time? That’s the new release of safari.

And Safari takes on a whole different meaning in the new version. Instead of an expedition into the world web to get what you’re looking for- you go on a safari to find where the floating address/search bar is at a given time.

To call this in anyway “just works”, or simple, or fast, or efficient is asinine. It’s a game of music chairs with browser tabs.

 

[Stephen.R]

I predict a future extension that acts as a refresh button

I’m pretty sure we’ve had that once before. Oh we still have it now: http://hypercritical.co/safari-reload-button/

 

[dburkhanaev]

I’m pretty sure we’ve had that once before. Oh we still have it now: http://hypercritical.co/safari-reload-button/

Cool. It might become more popular than before or maybe the reload button is dead. Time can only tell.

 

[Stephen.R]

Cool. It might become more popular than before or maybe the reload button is dead. Time can only tell.

I still remember when they had a prerelease version of safari like this once before.

it took the chrome approach and put tabs on top. It was ****ing terrible. And they listened, and reverted the change before it was released.

Submit that feedback people- complaining in a forum doesn’t tell Apple anything.

 

[zakarhino]

give it time; change often requires that, to adapt to the 'new'. this obviously isn't some 10-second decision, but made by a team, over time... and worked with until that team is happy. and (possibly) one day you will wake up and think "why hasn't it always been this way?"

Worst thing I've ever read on this site and I visit PRSI on occasion. a team of people at the almighty awesome Apple made a decision about something therefore they must be right, just don't say anything and slowly accept the design nerf with time /s

I don't need "time" to make a decision on whether dog food is Michelin star cuisine and I don't need time to figure out this Safari design puts aesthetics (cool, colors in the title bar!!! no ugly buttons!!!! /s) over real function (having a refresh button, designing for muscle memory, fast tab identification, etc.).

Get a grip, stop making excuses for poor design. Actually have an opinion on this disastrous design instead of substituting an opinion with the miraculously misguided belief that Apple must know better than their own customers, especially the power user customers that seriously want to beef up their workflow (the exact opposite of hiding everything useful in a three dot menu). Lowering your expectations, assuming companies know better than you, and making excuses for those companies are all actions people take that cause companies to become static and start getting lazy.

 

[tomtad]

Extension buttons can be added directly back to the tool bar using the customize toolbar option. I predict a future extension that acts as a refresh button and I predict an extension button that acts as a search/address bar. This is absolutely the dumbest UI/UX changes I've seen in an app from Apple. But in case you're interested I have uploaded some captures for you.

View attachment 1789839

View attachment 1789840

You're going to run out of space fast with extension buttons and multiple tabs all in one bar. It would be better if there was an extensions menu to put them under, or alternatively allow the classic tab layout for those that want it.

 

[dburkhanaev]

You're going to run out of space fast with extension buttons and multiple tabs all in one bar. It would be better if there was an extensions menu to put them under, or alternatively allow the classic tab layout for those that want it.

I don’t disagree. I was just letting those interested know that they won’t necessarily lose extension shortcuts, but that obviously doesn’t mean that you’ll have the best functionality. That was an FYI only kind of deal. I’m still coping with the other horrible UI choices.

 

[Stephen.R]

Interestingly Safari 15 Beta isn't available for download on older versions. I don't remember the timing of it in previous years, though.

 

[dburkhanaev]

Interestingly Safari 15 Beta isn't available for download on older versions. I don't remember the timing of it in previous years, though.

It’s part of the MacOS Monterey beta. Now software releases seem to be tied initially to betaOS releases. And new OS can’t run older versions of existing apps without some tinkering. At least through the install phase. I might pull a copy of Safari 14 from a Big Sur partition and see if I can move it over or if other forms of tinkering have to be done. It’s just odd that there would be code in Safari 14 that can’t run in Monterey.

 

[Stephen.R]

It’s part of the MacOS Monterey beta. Now software releases seem to be tied initially to betaOS releases.

I'm aware it's part of the Monterey beta.

In recent history, the new major version of Safari has also been released for the previous major macOS release, and thus a beta of that new Safari version has been available for the older, then-current-production version macOS.

Typically some features are not available as they rely on OS frameworks.

It's possible Apple will drop this practice and won't provide Safari 15 for Big Sur or Catalina, but that would be a significant change from the last few years. I suspect a more likely scenario is that the beta for the previous macOS versions will come with the public beta of macOS.

I guess I could go look back at the dates on previous release notes. I just thought someone might have seen a reference to a timeline about when the various betas would be available.

 

[dburkhanaev]

I'm aware it's part of the Monterey beta.

In recent history, the new major version of Safari has also been released for the previous major macOS release, and thus a beta of that new Safari version has been available for the older, then-current-production version macOS.

Typically some features are not available as they rely on OS frameworks.

It's possible Apple will drop this practice and won't provide Safari 15 for Big Sur or Catalina, but that would be a significant change from the last few years. I suspect a more likely scenario is that the beta for the previous macOS versions will come with the public beta of macOS.

I guess I could go look back at the dates on previous release notes. I just thought someone might have seen a reference to a timeline about when the various betas would be available.

My bad, I misunderstood. Maybe when the public beta releases they might also have a public beta preview for Safari 15 for Big Sur. It’s really early and perhaps it hasn’t rolled out. It could also be as you say, that they are changing away from that practice. I suppose it’s wait and see for now.

 

[fisherking]

Worst thing I've ever read on this site and I visit PRSI on occasion. a team of people at the almighty awesome Apple made a decision about something therefore they must be right, just don't say anything and slowly accept the design nerf with time /s

I don't need "time" to make a decision on whether dog food is Michelin star cuisine and I don't need time to figure out this Safari design puts aesthetics (cool, colors in the title bar!!! no ugly buttons!!!! /s) over real function (having a refresh button, designing for muscle memory, fast tab identification, etc.).

Get a grip, stop making excuses for poor design. Actually have an opinion on this disastrous design instead of substituting an opinion with the miraculously misguided belief that Apple must know better than their own customers, especially the power user customers that seriously want to beef up their workflow (the exact opposite of hiding everything useful in a three dot menu). Lowering your expectations, assuming companies know better than you, and making excuses for those companies are all actions people take that cause companies to become static and start getting lazy.

am honored to have posted the 'Worst thing I've ever read on this site"; i try to excel at everything.

i don't love everything apple does; i have my own list of gripes, disappointments, annoyances. and i've discussed some of these things on these forums; i just choose not to endlessly whine about them (which so many people here do).

"poor design" is an opinion, unless, for example, functionality is completely impossible (ie a window that asks to click 'continue' and there's no 'continue' button).

i'll say this again: opinions are not facts, yet so many ppl think that their point-of-view is the correct one. i wonder if this is why the world works as well as it does... 🤔

 

[tomtad]

Man I really miss that refresh button, never realised how many times I used it

 

[fisherking]

Man I really miss that refresh button, never realised how many times I used it

i've been using command-R for so long, i only noticed the refresh button from reading about how it's no longer there!

 

[11235813]

When you right click on empty space on a page, "Reload Page" is the second menu item. Usually much easier than trying to hit a small icon on the toolbar.

 

[Stephen.R]

The biggest use I have for the existing reload icon in the address bar, is the "Reload without Content Blockers" when something fails to render properly because GA/etc being blocked causes their javascript to **** the bed.

 

[tomtad]

When you right click on empty space on a page, "Reload Page" is the second menu item. Usually much easier than trying to hit a small icon on the toolbar.

Good tip!

 

[mikecwest]

Ok....but where are my pinned tabs....and why can't I have my forward backward arrows?

 

[tod]

There is space still do drag the safari window at the top. see the video

That's a really small target and it will make window movement unnecessarily inconvenient. All for looks.