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deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
6,571
US
I'm referring to real world usage and not benchmarks. Apps are super slow to launch while watching the icon bounce several times. Some blame that on apps phoning home to Apple but that doesn't explain the ~2x slower boot time.
Which specific apps are you finding give you this behavior?

I ask because I've not seen that on my M1 MBP. Stuff opens quick. Email, safari, edge, Finder windows, Numbers, App store, etc. Even after reboot.

Sure, Photoshop and Lightoom take 2-3 seconds to open, but (a) that's faster than they were on my Intel macs, and (b) we've not known Adobe to be particularly great at coding efficiency.
 
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IceStormNG

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2020
517
676
The M1 SSD is super slow. I don't know how anyone ever accomplishes anything at all with these things.

View attachment 1762749

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. :D

Result is from just now on my M1 MBP w/ 1TB SSD.

Not any faster than the 1TB of my 16". I heard people yelling the SSD was soooo much faster than before (doesn't it use PCIe 4 in the M1?). But still... these values are only reached in this benchmark. When actually writing or reading files, it slows down pretty significantly.

Bildschirmfoto 2021-04-23 um 18.38.57.png




Edit: For comparison: A Samsung 980 500GB in a hackintosh.
Samsung-980-Pro-500GB-Blackmagic.png
 

TheSynchronizer

macrumors 6502
Dec 2, 2014
443
729
With performance of AP0256Q about half of other TLC SSDs I wouldn't be surprised if the Q stands for QLC.
Screenshot 2021-04-23 at 17.22.24.png
This is the slowest 256GB reaching 2.5GB/s write and 2.8GB/s Read on the 1GB i.e. least sustained read/write test.

I'm curious: what laptop currently comes with an SSD that has performance double of this as you claim? Bearing in mind the price of the M1, let me know (;
Wait. I thought the M1 SSDs where so extremely fast? The one in the 16" is only fast in benchmarking. When doing real world stuff it's pretty slow and barely reaches 500MB/s. Either the T2 is not that great of and SSD controller or Apple used subpar NAND chips..
Benchmarks measure sustained reads/writes, and every SSD reaches it's max speeds when doing sustained tasks. Every SSD is a lot slower doing any bursty read/writing hence why a lot of real world tasks will make it 'slower' as it's doing quick bursty reads/writes. That being said, real world tasks that involve sustained reading/writing will reach the speeds that benchmarks reach.

The SSDs inside these M1's are not the fastest SSDs in the world by any shot. However, current M1 systems are also designed to be entry level, and they're in the cheapest Apple computers and far from the most expensive systems available to buy from either Apple or other manufacturers.

But in the price range of M1 systems/laptops? They have one of the best performing SSDs currently.
 

IceStormNG

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2020
517
676
I know that SSDs are way slower in real world. But I read in a lot of threads that swapping on the M1 (which this thread is also about) was no issue because of the "lightning fast" SSDs. 2.5GB/s is not lightning fast and actually slow as a crawl compared to RAM.
 
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leons

macrumors 6502a
Apr 22, 2009
662
344
I'm referring to real world usage and not benchmarks. Apps are super slow to launch while watching the icon bounce several times. Some blame that on apps phoning home to Apple but that doesn't explain the ~2x slower boot time.
We were/are talking hardware. That IS the speed of the SSD, and speaks to the quality of the SSD used. Without getting into silly arguments about launch times/etc. (I find my own to be blazingly fast), anything beyond that is a function of the OS and software that may (or may not) be updated in. the future, but the hardware speed of the SSD stands.
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
11,296
We were/are talking hardware. That IS the speed of the SSD, and speaks to the quality of the SSD used. Without getting into silly arguments about launch times/etc. (I find my own to be blazingly fast), anything beyond that is a function of the OS and software that may (or may not) be updated in. the future, but the hardware speed of the SSD stands.

User experience trumps useless synthetic dorkbench. I've never had to watch app icon bounce up to 5 times before it opens. On other devices the same apps open instantaneously. Only the apps bundled with Big Sur that are pre-cached into RAM open fast.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
6,571
US
Not any faster than the 1TB of my 16". I heard people yelling the SSD was soooo much faster than before (doesn't it use PCIe 4 in the M1?). But still... these values are only reached in this benchmark. When actually writing or reading files, it slows down pretty significantly.
Remind me again which M1 model you own that you're drawing on for this observation?

'cuz I've not seen anything like what you describe in the five months I've had my M1 MBP.
 
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leons

macrumors 6502a
Apr 22, 2009
662
344
User experience trumps useless synthetic dorkbench. I've never had to watch app icon bounce up to 5 times before it opens. On other devices the same apps open instantaneously. Only the apps bundled with Big Sur that are pre-cached into RAM open fast.
Whatever! :) Maybe yours has a hardware problem or a virus! I've used Macs professionally since 2011, and I have 5 of them today (only 1 is an M1). If you want to talk "real world/user experience", I use mine intensely for business upwards of 12 hours/day. The M1 Air is my daily driver an is BY FAR the fastest, smoothest, and most responsive Mac I've ever used. The other 4 are gathering dust. So to each his/her own! (And, to repeat, you get this for LESS than the cost of 2 Starbucks/week [for those who choose to assume it will die in 3 years]). If it dies in 3 years (it won't), I will give it a good funeral! ;-)
 
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TheSynchronizer

macrumors 6502
Dec 2, 2014
443
729
I know that SSDs are way slower in real world. But I read in a lot of threads that swapping on the M1 (which this thread is also about) was no issue because of the "lightning fast" SSDs. 2.5GB/s is not lightning fast and actually slow as a crawl compared to RAM.
Well I upgraded to this 8/256 m1 MBP from a 16GB intel MBP (which I had to get as my previous 8GB MBP before that was constant beachballs and freezing) and it handles the exact same workflow as good or better than that one ever did.

Ofcourse it’s slower than RAM. The swap isn’t RAM - it’s a store of data to be moved back into RAM when it’s needed. Bear in mind that the pure speed of the SSD isn’t the only factor in the speed of swapping. From first hand experience the speed/overhead of the swapping on M1 due to much faster SSDs (compared to the SSDs of the macbooks that m1 has replaced), and the direct bus lanes between RAM and SSD thanks to them both being built in on the same chip, is such that I have yet to experience any freezing or noticeable loading due to memory swapping on workflows that greatly exceed my 8GB of RAM. So it’s true, the ‘swapping is no issue’ and keeps performance super snappy and it’s why one can seriously replace a 16GB intel MBP with an 8GB M1 MBP and have even better performance due to all the other M1 benefits.

But constant/excessive swapping is ofcourse unhealthy for the SSD and that is what this thread is about. That being said, I’ve fixed my excessive writes without limiting myself on what I can do on this MBP, and I use plenty of swap all the time but I only get a maximum of around 50GB written per day which gives the SSD a lifespan far exceeding the life of the laptop itself.
 
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TheSynchronizer

macrumors 6502
Dec 2, 2014
443
729
User experience trumps useless synthetic dorkbench. I've never had to watch app icon bounce up to 5 times before it opens. On other devices the same apps open instantaneously. Only the apps bundled with Big Sur that are pre-cached into RAM open fast.
I’m pretty sure what you’re referring to is Rosetta 2 doing it’s job and translating the x86 code of an Intel Mac app so that it can run on Apple ARM architecture. This was a given from the very first day M1 released - this is a whole architectural change and the reason why Apple is the first in the history of computing to be this successful with transitioning to a new architecture is because of how difficult it truly is.

No one in the past has been able to achieve what Apple has been achieving so far with how relatively smooth this transition is going. Microsoft Surface has been out for lord knows how long now and to this day those devices can only run software designed for Windows 10 ARM.

Apple achieved something on a completely different level being able to run so much of the already existing x86 software simply through translation instead of m1 users having to wait for developers to update their software and not being able to use it. And this is without mentioning that iOS apps can run on m1 too.

Software is being updated daily and any M1 native app you open will open ‘instantly’ with no bouncing just like you’re used to.

Personally whenever I open an app under Rosetta 2 and see the slightly longer loading, I still get moments where I’m just in awe that this level of translation is possible at all.
 

Snowii

macrumors newbie
Mar 17, 2021
11
2
Guys, anyone actually using lightroom and can post some experience regarding this swapping issue?
 

rob984

macrumors newbie
Apr 11, 2021
18
10
Guys, anyone actually using lightroom and can post some experience regarding this swapping issue?
Even though I'm heavy user of LR and PS on PC, I'm using it very light on M1, waiting for update to reduce swap. But I can tell you that I tried with reduced performance by changing GPU to Basic (or just preview). With PS, one edit from 24MP raw of D750 is writing around 2GB, which is not that bad.
 
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Maximara

macrumors 68000
Jun 16, 2008
1,707
909
Mac mini M1, a month of daily 8h use with office tasks. Without any tweaks. Using Safari (up to 10-15 tabs), Rosetta.

View attachment 1762574
1.03 TB for 8 hr in a month? I think that is the lowest we have seen. Even if we go with the 600 TB from the bank's numbers (which is unusually low and them using the mac in a way it wasn't intend to be used) that works out to 600 months or 50 years. And before we get the whole "it may not be linear" rebuttal the 2014 The SSD Endurance Experiment: They’re all dead test shows, with one exception, totally linear graphs of TB usage. And that one exception had a weird huccup that caused it to last longer than the up to then linear results indicated.
 
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ambient_light

macrumors member
Feb 23, 2021
59
65
After a full 24 hrs, writings from swapping are just at 30Gb mark... that's a success, comparing to past versions.
Also, I've noticed improvements in the memory usage efficiency - swapping doesn't start until higher memory pressure with lower amount free memory, and swap file size gets decreased faster than before.

So, looks like after months of complaints, someone finally cared at Apple and fixed a glaring bug in paging/swapping algorithm ... and even tweaked memory pressure parameters as a bonus. Fingers crossed :)

Didn't change after 2 working days ... ca. 70 Gb of writes from swapping. Not ideal, but order of magnitude better than before. Indirect metric of the efficiency is the ratio between reads and writes from kernel_task. Before it reached ridiculous 1:10, now it is closer to 1:2. More detailed stats could be gathered from vm_stat.

Once confirmed by other users, this thread could be finally retired 🤞

P.S. Ah, and one more thing ... similar, albeit less efficient improvement was observed in 11.3b4, but somehow that fix didn't make it to the mainline and excessive swapping bug returned in subsequent updates. Hope Apple won't screw it again in 11.4.
 

CMMChris

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2019
850
794
Germany (Bavaria)
I am now at five months of heavy usage as my main one and only computer and still not affected. 4.3 TBW at the moment. That is totally in line with the SSD load on the Hackintosh I was using before.

Have been using Rosetta more intense recently to see if it makes any difference - it does not.
Also tried reproducing excessive SSD writes by loading Safari, Chrome and Firefox with tabs - no excessive writing for me.

So still really strange what is going one with the machines of some guys in here.
 

Maximara

macrumors 68000
Jun 16, 2008
1,707
909
I am now at five months of heavy usage as my main one and only computer and still not affected. 4.3 TBW at the moment. That is totally in line with the SSD load on the Hackintosh I was using before.

Have been using Rosetta more intense recently to see if it makes any difference - it does not.
Also tried reproducing excessive SSD writes by loading Safari, Chrome and Firefox with tabs - no excessive writing for me.

So still really strange what is going one with the machines of some guys in here.
That strangeness is what makes me think this is not entirely an Apple problem but some weird combination of Apple and third party software causing the excessive writes some people are seeing. 4.3 TBW over 5 months works out to 0.86 TB per month which is even lower than Sysnet's 1.03 TB for 8 hr/day in a month which going off the only failure rate we have (a bank doing something IMHO totally inapproperate to these macs) was 600 TBW. Your numberd work out to slighly more than 697 months or 58 years.
 
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TheSynchronizer

macrumors 6502
Dec 2, 2014
443
729
Nope. All M1 native apps. We don't need to downplay it. It needs to be fixed or addressed.
Sincerely, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Some heavier/bigger apps do more on launch such as run processes, read disk, etc... rather than just load app data. But maybe I'm just not one to 'count bounces' because it's all more than fast enough for me.

 
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TheSynchronizer

macrumors 6502
Dec 2, 2014
443
729
I am now at five months of heavy usage as my main one and only computer and still not affected. 4.3 TBW at the moment. That is totally in line with the SSD load on the Hackintosh I was using before.

Have been using Rosetta more intense recently to see if it makes any difference - it does not.
Also tried reproducing excessive SSD writes by loading Safari, Chrome and Firefox with tabs - no excessive writing for me.

So still really strange what is going one with the machines of some guys in here.
Keep in mind you have 16GB while most people will have 8GB, so your swapping should be a lot less frequent by default, hence why you have lower writes by default.

But being an 8/256 user myself I've also managed to lower my writes down to <= 1TB a month while maintaining the same heavy use as always :) but at the very beginning my writes were crazy indeed.
 

IceStormNG

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2020
517
676
Nope. All M1 native apps. We don't need to downplay it. It needs to be fixed or addressed.
Keep in mind that macOS regularly checks every app's integrity via syspolicyd and against Apple's servers. That was an issue since Catalina and heavily slowed down app launches (can be disabled - at least on Intel, not 100% sure about M1) compared to Mojave and before.
Someone with a M1 Mac Mini told me, it's the same on M1 Big Sur as it is on Intel Big Sur. Not a hardware issue, but Apple's aggressive security measurements in their OS.
 
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wirtandi

macrumors regular
Feb 3, 2021
179
179
Been following this thread for so long I am starting to forget the numbers since there are so many numbers being thrown around here.

Someone remind me - what is the worst/highest ssd write we have in this thread? Was it 1TB/month? please use GB/TB etc not TBW, as I dont really understand TBW :p
 

leons

macrumors 6502a
Apr 22, 2009
662
344
Not sure if I was "absolutely" the worse, but I certainly was a canditate to be the "Excessive SSD writes Poster Child". At its peak, I was writing 1TB/Day while running no special/unusual/disk intensive software. My disk was well on its way to the SSD graveyard. Now, after making the few adjustments in this thread (with special thanks and recognition to the "Mayor" of this thread, @TheSynchronizer), I am now down to an average of 40-50GB/day. I have now changed my Will, and I am bequeathing my Macbook to my great-great-great grandchildren!
 
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