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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
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Singapore
Serious office knowledge worker requires a keyboard imo. A serious graphic artist may not require a keyboard on an ipp. Tough but not impossible to write scads of text without a keyboard as in Fortune 500 back-office workers.
It seems disingenuous to confine the concept of "real work" to the image of a worker typing away on a spreadsheet inside an office cubicle.

Not everyone who does work is an office worker, and I believe the number of people working in an office environment forms just a fairly small proportion of total people working.
 

tbayrgs

macrumors 604
Jul 5, 2009
7,467
5,097
The question is whether or not certain service jobs require a keyboard and whether or not the iPP's size is too much. My wife is a physician, and I can see a company like AllScripts running their software on an iPad Pro, however I can't picture my wife walking around with an iPad Pro.

My wife is a physician as well. When her practice finally upgraded to EMR (web based), they started her off with a Samsung tablet in a keyboard folio--that last a couple days. ;)

She used an iPad Air/keyboard case for a while but decided the touch interface wasn't really necessary as she inputs quite a bit of text note and though a larger display would also help, so ultimately settled on a 12" Macbook. It was the perfect compromise of screen size and portability. I actually made the suggestion that she try a Surface Pro 3 but she prefers OS X now. See, there is actually a target customer for the 12" MB. :D;)
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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Gotta be in it to win it
It seems disingenuous to confine the concept of "real work" to the image of a worker typing away on a spreadsheet inside an office cubicle.

Not everyone who does work is an office worker, and I believe the number of people working in an office environment forms just a fairly small proportion of total people working.
You misquoted me and in the process changed the meaning of what was posted. I said "serious work"; much different than "real work" which can be taken as a condescending judgment call.

Having said that a quick trip to fortune.com will show the total number of employees in the Fortune 500 to be in the millions; not an insignificant number. And while this represents a portion of the total employed in the world those office employees represent a big chunk of the employed and those that "might" require a keyboard as an office knowledge worker.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
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You misquoted me and in the process changed the meaning of what was posted. I said "serious work"; much different than "real work" which can be taken as a condescending judgment call.

Having said that a quick trip to fortune.com will show the total number of employees in the Fortune 500 to be in the millions; not an insignificant number. And while this represents a portion of the total employed in the world those office employees represent a big chunk of the employed and those that "might" require a keyboard as an office knowledge worker.
That is big leap to assume the workers you mentioned from fortune.com need a keyboard to do their work and not a touch interface. How did you make that leap?
This is just stating the obvious. they might....then they might not...way to commit.
a big chunk of the employed and those that "might" require a keyboard as an office knowledge worker.

So what is your definition of serious work?
I said "serious work
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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Gotta be in it to win it
That is big leap to assume the workers you mentioned from fortune.com need a keyboard to do their work and not a touch interface. How did you make that leap?
This is just stating the obvious. they might....then they might not...way to commit.


So what is your definition of serious work?
Serious work is that of a fortune 1000 knowledge worker in the year 2015. Someone who spends their time doing reports, graphs, analysis, in the middle of business processes. The context is differentiated between a physician, cop, construction worker, etc who have important and hard jobs but is not in the middle of corporate business processes often these days requiring access to multiple middle ware systems.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
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Serious work is that of a fortune 1000 knowledge worker in the year 2015. Someone who spends their time doing reports, graphs, analysis, in the middle of business processes. The context is differentiated between a physician, cop, construction worker, etc who have important and hard jobs but is not in the middle of corporate business processes often these days requiring access to multiple middle ware systems.
You make assumptions that are not based on facts. I know fortune 1000 workers who do not need anything other than an ipad to do their work. I have worked with SVPs that can work on a SP3 without a keyboard. I have seen senior administrative assistance that could not live without a keyboard. But i have also seen construction workers in the field that needed a laptop to do their jobs.
Serious work for you is not so serious for someone else and vice versa.
I have worked with my orgs VP of operations to present a powerpoint presentation to people all over the country. The entire presentation was done from start to finish on a Surface without a physical keyboard. Considering the presentation was for the firm to fund a new project worth 5 Mil...i would consider that pretty serious.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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Gotta be in it to win it
You make assumptions that are not based on facts. I know fortune 1000 workers who do not need anything other than an ipad to do their work. I have worked with SVPs that can work on a SP3 without a keyboard. I have seen senior administrative assistance that could not live without a keyboard. But i have also seen construction workers in the field that needed a laptop to do their jobs.
Serious work for you is not so serious for someone else and vice versa.
I have worked with my orgs VP of operations to present a powerpoint presentation to people all over the country. The entire presentation was done from start to finish on a Surface without a physical keyboard. Considering the presentation was for the firm to fund a new project worth 5 Mil...i would consider that pretty serious.
do you deny that Fortune 500 companies who may employ 50,000 and up don't have large numbers of employees who require a keyboard. Or are you going to equip your back-office staff with tablets without keyboards; that us why I specifically said knowledge workers.

I'm with you in the ability to give a presentation from an iPad; as I did NOT say or infer 100% require a physical keyboard.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
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do you deny that Fortune 500 companies who may employ 50,000 and up don't have large numbers of employees who require a keyboard. Or are you going to equip your back-office staff with tablets without keyboards; that us why I specifically said knowledge workers.

I'm with you in the ability to give a presentation from an iPad; as I did NOT say or infer 100% require a physical keyboard.
Now you are changing positions again. first its fortune 1000 now iyd fortune 500 first its serious work and now is knowledge workers. I have shown you your contradictions. I have shown you where you're making incorrect assumptions. You change positions and change your thoughts and never own up to it. This why no one bothers to talk to you anymore. I should have known better than to engage....
Done.....
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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Gotta be in it to win it
It's obvious all you want todo is nitpick and catch people and argue; Fortune 500 or fortune 1000 you're talking millions of people and you don't think the majority use a keyboard with Windows no matter how you slice it?

Maybe you don't have any experience with corporate America, which I guess is possible.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
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It's obvious all you want todo is nitpick and catch people and argue; Fortune 500 or fortune 1000 you're talking millions of people and
you don't think the majority use a keyboard with Windows
no matter how you slice it?

Maybe you don't have any experience with corporate America, which I guess is possible.
I think we all have more experience in corporate america than you have. It is grows more obvious with every post you write.
get the facts straight.... you flipflop on your position with every post. First it is serious work...then it is knowledge workers.
You change your position when you realize how ridiculous your statements are.
I have never said this or hinted at it......... I gave you personal real world examples. You just flip flop and try to deflect by making things up.
you don't think the majority use a keyboard with Windows
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,160
25,269
Gotta be in it to win it
I think we all have more experience in corporate america than you have. It is grows more obvious with every post you write.
get the facts straight.... you flipflop on your position with every post. First it is serious work...then it is knowledge workers.
You change your position when you realize how ridiculous your statements are.
I have never said this or hinted at it......... I gave you personal real world examples. You just flip flop and try to deflect by making things up.
Honestly from your posts,it doesn't seem you have any experience with corporate America at all to know how a large corporation operates. Do you understand what a knowledge worker does...maybe you can explain it? carry on.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
16,077
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Honestly from your posts,it doesn't seem you have any experience with corporate America at all to know how a large corporation operates. Do you understand what a knowledge worker does...maybe you can explain it? carry on.
as expected....you repeat what i have written about you. You're not even original in that! :)
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
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Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
I went to an Apple store today and played with the iPad Pro and was actually taken aback with it. It's nice, not as big as I thought it would be, and using things like the split screen is very easy.
The keyboard worked well but it felt odd using the keyboard then the touchscreen etc. The pencil worked well though.

The sound is loud and deep too from the speakers. It's a nice slick package I felt. Certainly the best iPad yet I thought.
 
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mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
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The sound is loud and deep too from the speakers. It's a nice slick package I felt. Certainly the best iPad yet I thought.

iPP speakers are good as long as you stay away from the higher volumes where it tends to distort. Had to back off like three ticks to rid of the distortion. SP4 speakers sound better, crisper and just as loud but it helps that they're front facing so less volume wasted than side firing.
 
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apolloa

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iPP speakers are good as long as you stay away from the higher volumes where it tends to distort. Had to back off like three ticks to rid of the distortion. SP4 speakers sound better, crisper and just as loud but it helps that they're front facing so less volume wasted than side firing.

I didn't think they sounded distorted to me at full volume, but this was in an Apple store and not a quiet room.

It didn't feel 'Pro' to me? But it was really nice, I'm tempted but it couldn't replace a laptop I don't think and is the price of one. Maybe it's a nice compliment to an iMac say.
I am in no way an artist but was busy creating my masterpiece with ease on it, I think it would take time to learn how to use the pressure and angle sensors of the pencil.
The pencil next to the one I used didn't work at first, I thought a flat battery so stuck it into the Pro's port and it automatically synced over bluetooth and then worked fine. I liked that.

Anyway, it's a nice machine. 3D Touch would be good though.
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
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It didn't feel 'Pro' to me? But it was really nice, I'm tempted but it couldn't replace a laptop I don't think and is the price of one. Maybe it's a nice compliment to an iMac say.

Your thinking reflects what other pros think about the iPP that the only pro use is as a Mac accessory in place of Wacom Cintiq but you lose portability compared to a device like Surface Pro 4, Sony Vaio Z Canvas, etc., higher cost of needing two devices and screen mirror latency. Hoops people can avoid jumping through if only Apple offer something like a 12" rMB with touch and pen layer and optionally add 180 degree hinge with autorotation or 360 degree so keyboard is not in the way.

 
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TheMissionMan

macrumors member
Jul 6, 2011
44
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Serious work is that of a fortune 1000 knowledge worker in the year 2015. Someone who spends their time doing reports, graphs, analysis, in the middle of business processes. The context is differentiated between a physician, cop, construction worker, etc who have important and hard jobs but is not in the middle of corporate business processes often these days requiring access to multiple middle ware systems.

The fatal mistake you make is assuming that the bulk of the workforce are confined to a desk in any industry. This is true for financial (banks) and software development, and thats about all. Thats a small percentage of industry.

The majority of fortune 500 companies would have the bulk of their workforce out in the field.

Manufacturing? About 10% or less of the workforce would be desk bound. The majority would be responsible for running the manufacturing equipment or maintaining it. So 90% or more are mobility based users who walk around and don't have a desk to put their laptop on.

Mining? As above

Utilities (telecommunication, electricity)? As above (I'm doing consulting work for a utility, they have over a thousand employees and less than 100 stationed at their office where the desktops are)

Oil & Gas? As above

So basically your perception of that a fortune 1000 user needs to be doing graphs analysis etc is only representative of the 1% of the workers in corporate, and what may shock you is that the top business analytics are now available on yes, wait for it, the iPad....

Have a look at RoamBI at http://roambi.com which is based on a ERP BI tools. Ultimately when it comes to fortune 1000 reporting, the volume of data they generate is too large for spreadsheets and may come from 10 or 12 different systems, so they use business intelligence tools to combine the data. With BI tools these days, you define the reports/graphs you want to see based on the different data sources, BI tools then consolidate the data using queries to the different systems and generate the reports for you.

So in short, all you have done is show, that what little you pretend to know about fortune 1000 companies is irrelevant.

Your thinking reflects what other pros think about the iPP that the only pro use is as a Mac accessory in place of Wacom Cintiq but you lose portability compared to a device like Surface Pro 4, Sony Vaio Z Canvas, etc., higher cost of needing two devices and screen mirror latency. Hoops people can avoid jumping through if only Apple offer something like a 12" rMB with touch and pen layer and optionally add 180 degree hinge with autorotation or 360 degree so keyboard is not in the way.


Not at all. The device is still relevant to artists as a stand alone unit, I was merely pointing out that it is relevant at a pro tool for photography because people have complained that its not a pro tool for photography. Its just not pro in the way they expect and just not as a stand alone unit. Given the investment in Wacom, it isn't actually as expensive as most people make it out to be when you consider the applications. Wacom Cintiq's are priced the same as the 32GB iPad Pro and you still need about $100 worth of cables to attach to a Mac. If you want the 32GB Cintiq Companion which runs android, it costs the same as a 128GB iPad Pro. In short, Microsoft don't need to be scared, but Wacom should be.

I would love to see a Hybrid out of Apple, but if you look at the surface, its a great laptop and a very mediocre tablet. The iPad Pro is just a tablet. Its a good one, large for some (depending on your preference). Its not a poor laptop and a good tablet, its just a tablet. Ultimately Apple won't produce something that is both until OSX or iOS can do both well. The hardware Apple has been working on for ages (if you look at the patents from the last 5 years). But just touch enabling OSX would be a poor experience. If you look at Windows 10, MS had Windows 8.1 which was horrible. Windows 10 is a drastic improvement on Windows 8.1, but I think part of what makes it such a big improvement was how bad 8.1 was. The native app switching between desktop and mobile versions isn't great. You'd expect it to switch from a Office 2016 to a Office Mobile version when you go to tablet mode, instead it just gives you the tablet enabled version of Office 2016 which is slightly larger icons and still terrible for touch. As an OS, you still find yourself needing the mouse too much in tablet mode and needing to touch the screen in mouse mode. It's a compromise no matter what way you look. Personally I'd just be happy with an OSX version that switches from OSX to iPad when you pull the screen off, but I don't see that happening
 

Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,777
6,255
The comparison is not even fair.The Surface Pro 4 can jailbreak the iPad Pro and do all kinds of stuff to it.Says it all.The iPad Pro Is just a oversized Air 2 tablet with higher performance but the OS is the same
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
The comparison is not even fair.The Surface Pro 4 can jailbreak the iPad Pro and do all kinds of stuff to it.Says it all.The iPad Pro Is just a oversized Air 2 tablet with higher performance but the OS is the same
The comparison may be unfair but its one that Apple is foisting on us as the iPad Pro is Apple's answer to Microsoft's Surfce Pro.
 

TheMissionMan

macrumors member
Jul 6, 2011
44
20
The comparison may be unfair but its one that Apple is foisting on us as the iPad Pro is Apple's answer to Microsoft's Surfce Pro.

I'm confused. When exactly did Apple say this device was there to compete with the Surface Pro? They said it could replace a laptop for some, and if all you do is email, web and basic office, it can, but no one at Apple ever said this device was a competitor to the Surface.

Apple released this as a device for creatives. That's all
 

apolloa

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I'm confused. When exactly did Apple say this device was there to compete with the Surface Pro? They said it could replace a laptop for some, and if all you do is email, web and basic office, it can, but no one at Apple ever said this device was a competitor to the Surface.

Apple released this as a device for creatives. That's all

Well Tim Cook and as a result Apple did call the Surface Book diluted and not very good, so they have in effect given their views on the Microsoft devices:

http://m.windowscentral.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-slams-surface-book-trying-too-hard-do-too-much

They made very obvious attack remarks against a competing competitors device.
 
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jamezr

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I'm confused. When exactly did Apple say this device was there to compete with the Surface Pro? They said it could replace a laptop for some, and if all you do is email, web and basic office, it can, but no one at Apple ever said this device was a competitor to the Surface.

Apple released this as a device for creatives. That's all
He didn't name the SP specifically but the whole PC space in general....which includes the Surface Pro line.
Also the IPP is in direct competition with the Surface Pro line......it's Apple trying to emulate the success of the SP almost exactly....even with the keyboard.

In an interview with The Telegraph, Cook said, "I think if you're looking at a PC, why would you buy a PC anymore? No really, why would you buy one?"

He continued: "Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones."
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-why-would-you-buy-a-pc-anymore-2015-11
 

aneftp

macrumors 601
Jul 28, 2007
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Honestly guys and gals. iPad pro and surface pro 4 are pointless arguments unless you own one or the other.

If you don't own one, don't bother discussing theories how one is better than the other. We are going round and round.

Buy one, if you don't like it return it. End of argument.

I have iPad Air 2 and 27 inch iMac and mid 2013 MacBook Air and iPhone 6s Plus already.

I just find myself using my iPad Air 2 less and less. So both my 3 and 5 year old kids use the two iPad Air 2s and iPad Air one we have in the house.

The iPad pro fits a niche market (for now). Apple is being very careful not to cannibalized 12 inch MacBook and 13 inch MacBook Air sales with the iPad pro. If they put OS X on iPad pro. The 12 inch MacBook and 13 MacBook Air will cease to exist in 2 years. That would almost be a certainty.

Is the surface pro 4 perfect? No. But it's darn good. The screen is amazing. I adjusted a few settings and get a good 7-7.5 hours now. At first I was getting 4.5-5 hours. That's with real time work load. It's not 10 hours like iPad. But good enough. I disabled the notifications on surface just like I do on my iOS devices so battery drain is only 1-2% now as opposed to 4-5%.

Again the average consumer isn't going to spend $1000-1500 on a "tablet". Or "pc replacement" most Windows users target the $400-700 range for Pc replacements. And most Apple computers sold are around the $1000-1200 mark (MacBook Air was still the best selling Mac computer last I checked)
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
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'm confused. When exactly did Apple say this device was there to compete with the Surface Pro? They said it could replace a laptop for some, and if all you do is email, web and basic office, it can, but no one at Apple ever said this device was a competitor to the Surface.

Apple released this as a device for creatives. That's all
While he didn't name specifically, its quite clear that the iPP is a direct answer to the Surface Pro line.

12" tablet
cover with a keyboard
stylus
Ability to have it sit on your lap (in the IPP's case, the smart cover folds, in the SP's case its kick stand).

Basically, as I've said before, it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, its a duck
 

MissionMan01

macrumors member
Oct 12, 2015
44
18
No. He said he disagreed with the concept of hybrids so Apple would not create one.

It looks like a tablet, sounds like a tablet. Tablets have always been usable on your lap. It's just a tablet.

You've made the assumption it's something more. That's your fault. Not Apple.
 
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