Surface Pro 4 vs iPad Pro and the future of pro tablets

[aw3524]

That's interesting, especially the part about diluting versus distilling. Very interesting and I love discussions like this. For me I still think diluting is the proper word, otherwise that functionality would not exist to begin with. Certainly that comes with the caveat of what the user needs, but mass produced devices cannot be tailor made like that. Certainly whether we play semantics and call it diluted or distilled, there IS still something missing in the functionality of an "app" and that's a huge downside to iOS, once again for my needs and wants.

As for the desktop versus tablet, I'm not sure I follow. I can't put my desktop into bed with me, I can't carry my desktop on the train or to the dentist office. As far as new experiences I see them all the time on windows, lack of new experiences is deadly to software developers. If anything iOS seems quite stale and lacking in new experiences to me.

I was saying something like this: as an addition to my setup, there's not much point in having an SP. Many of the experiences it offers are familiar, yet inferior. For instance, I use MATLAB/R for various simulation tasks during the week. If I had an SP4, I could move some of these tasks to that device when I'm away from my home computer. However, as long as it's not essential for me to do these tasks away from home, it's entirely pointless to do them on the SP4 -- I'm far more productive when I can leverage the speed of my home computer or my dual-monitor setup for coding/results.

When I say a device like the IPP does, in fact, offer wholly new experiences, I'm referring to apps. People (such as yourself, in the quoted section) deride apps for having less functionality, but it's really not that simple. Photoshop on OS X / Windows isn't replaced in iOS by the same old Photoshop with some menu items "greyed out" -- instead, there are apps like Illustrator Draw, Mix, Cut that reimagine and adapt some of the functionality of Photoshop to the smaller screen with a different mode of input. Again, it's not just "less functionality"; in many cases, it's different functionality. Discarding the IPP or its apps because you're used to and understand a laptop/desktop-esque workflow is kind of like ignoring the first PC because you're used to an abacus and a notebook. Learning to do things in a novel way using a new device is costly and often not worth it, but it's also not strictly inferior just because the device doesn't match one's existing mental map for a "laptop" or "PC."

 

[mi7chy]

Can it do 10 hour battery life? What about the apps? Are they any optimized for tablet use? windows simply doesnt have the same app ecosystem and it shows. So yes - the surface pro is okay if you dont mind using a mouse or trackpad once in a while but it is nowhere in the same league as the ipad pro is on that aspect.

A bicycle doesn't consume any gas but I'm not going to give up my car for it. I can get a lot more done in 7 hours in a car than 10 hours on a bicycle. For my use, iPP is nothing more than an oversized iPod since it can't even run my basic tools like SSH/telnet, RDP, VNC, etc. without dying after 3 minutes in the background. Some might find some limited use for it but reality is it's just an overpriced consumption toy. My home iPad just collects dust when it's not used by guests to toy around with. iOS ecosystem is lacking too since it doesn't have useful tools like C++/C compiler, network packet capture, use my phone as a USB flash stick to boot Kali pen test, etc.

 

[darkgremio]

Yes because Apple would never release the ipad pro if it became unresponsive with a black screen, needing a manual reboot... oh wait....

These issues though compared in retrospect of the Surface Pro 4 is minimal. These issues that affect are far much more worse and Apple remedied these issues. Microsoft still has not won't expect to in sometimes past 2016, and they just released the Surface 4 in India...

 

[spinedoc77]

I was saying something like this: as an addition to my setup, there's not much point in having an SP. Many of the experiences it offers are familiar, yet inferior. For instance, I use MATLAB/R for various simulation tasks during the week. If I had an SP4, I could move some of these tasks to that device when I'm away from my home computer. However, as long as it's not essential for me to do these tasks away from home, it's entirely pointless to do them on the SP4 -- I'm far more productive when I can leverage the speed of my home computer or my dual-monitor setup for coding/results.

When I say a device like the IPP does, in fact, offer wholly new experiences, I'm referring to apps. People (such as yourself, in the quoted section) deride apps for having less functionality, but it's really not that simple. Photoshop on OS X / Windows isn't replaced in iOS by the same old Photoshop with some menu items "greyed out" -- instead, there are apps like Illustrator Draw, Mix, Cut that reimagine and adapt some of the functionality of Photoshop to the smaller screen with a different mode of input. Again, it's not just "less functionality"; in many cases, it's different functionality. Discarding the IPP or its apps because you're used to and understand a laptop/desktop-esque workflow is kind of like ignoring the first PC because you're used to an abacus and a notebook. Learning to do things in a novel way using a new device is costly and often not worth it, but it's also not strictly inferior just because the device doesn't match one's existing mental map for a "laptop" or "PC."

I still don't get what you're saying. My Sp4 can't do the things my Cray supercomputer does so there's not much point in having it, right? I mean if you don't need a tablet, then you don't need a tablet. I'm assuming you mean that you would rather have an ipad since the SP doesn't offer the same power as your desktop, but why have the ipad then? Tablet like functions are done just as well on a windows tablet so either tablet is just as pointless.

As for new experiences, I get what you are saying. I suppose I'd have to see a breakdown of each program versus app. Does the iOS version of MS office offer reimagined functions similar to the desktop version for example? Photoshop? CAD? MATLAB? XCode? I don't know, I highly doubt it but cannot say that I have gone and compared feature to feature. I still believe there are in fact functions and abilities which are completely not present, not reimagined. But I also will rely on your experience and agree that some apps can have similar functionality, I just don't know which those are and how popular they are.

It's interesting that you eschew a tablet for your matlab, but seem to be ok with it for things like illustrator/photoshop without the use of desktop power, multi monitors, etc. We're kind of backtracking, but that's a great point in that you can dock your surface tablet and use it as a full computer, with a full setup, mouse, multiple monitors, etc, NO limits whatsoever. So you can truly take your desktop with you and not even have to own a desktop, you can't even come close to that functionality with the ipad, not even light years away. BTW on the surface forums there are a couple of guys who avidly use matlab on their SP3/4's and love em.

I discard the ipad and its apps not because of workflow, but because of functionality, or lack of it. Not only specific functions/abilities, but the workflow doesn't make sense either for what I do. Now it may make sense for your field, or for someone else, I can't speak for them. But when I need to hunker down and get my report written you better bet I need that mouse and all the functionality that office 2016 provides. As for the analogy, I'd say I'd rather use the PC and ditch the abacus/notebook as a simpler, much less functional device. Technology improves, something like iOS which was once necessary because of battery life and such is not necessary anymore. There isn't a mobile paradigm, just an OS which was needed in its day due to hardware limitations, but now serves nicely to get consumers to buy more than one device instead of combining them.

Great conversation btw. I get what you're saying.

 

[spinedoc77]

These issues though compared in retrospect of the Surface Pro 4 is minimal. These issues that affect are far much more worse and Apple remedied these issues. Microsoft still has not won't expect to in sometimes past 2016, and they just released the Surface 4 in India...

Says who? An unresponsive ipad with a black screen is a smaller issue than a SP4 that does the same thing? Sounds like the same exact thing to me. MS has for the most part remedied this with firmware updates, I'm not saying it doesn't still exist but I haven't seen this issue in weeks. It's technology, it's going to have glitches which need to be fixed, even Apple doesn't escape from this.

 

[MissionMan01]

Says who? An unresponsive ipad with a black screen is a smaller issue than a SP4 that does the same thing? Sounds like the same exact thing to me. MS has for the most part remedied this with firmware updates, I'm not saying it doesn't still exist but I haven't seen this issue in weeks. It's technology, it's going to have glitches which need to be fixed, even Apple doesn't escape from this.

20 plus issues on the SP and SB, which Microsoft had to issue a public apology for, some of which still haven't been resolved and 1 issue on the iPad Pro. Yeah. Great comparison.

 

[spinedoc77]

20 plus issues on the SP and SB, which Microsoft had to issue a public apology for, some of which still haven't been resolved and 1 issue on the iPad Pro. Yeah. Great comparison.

Ahh I see... only a single issue for the IPP? Nothing like it won't wake up after charging, can't connect to wifi, screen freezes for a few seconds randomly, system sounds too quite, etc just to name some.... I don't think you're going to make a case here, technology as complicated as this is bound to launch with some glitches. Thanks, it was a great comparison.

 

[MissionMan01]

And you're saying this from personal experience?

 

[Wiesenlooser]

A bicycle doesn't consume any gas but I'm not going to give up my car for it. I can get a lot more done in 7 hours in a car than 10 hours on a bicycle. For my use, iPP is nothing more than an oversized iPod since it can't even run my basic tools like SSH/telnet, RDP, VNC, etc. without dying after 3 minutes in the background. Some might find some limited use for it but reality is it's just an overpriced consumption toy. My home iPad just collects dust when it's not used by guests to toy around with. iOS ecosystem is lacking too since it doesn't have useful tools like C++/C compiler, network packet capture, use my phone as a USB flash stick to boot Kali pen test, etc.

Surface pro battery life is more like 5 hours, when you are seriously using it for stuff like photoshop. Either way, many people actually prefer a bike to a car because it is more fun and more flexible and in many cases quicker.

 

[mi7chy]

Surface pro battery life is more like 5 hours, when you are seriously using it for stuff like photoshop. Either way, many people actually prefer a bike to a car because it is more fun and more flexible and in many cases quicker.

Wrong. I get 7+ hours with the Core M3 model. You can get much higher performance with i5 and i7 but with the trade off of battery life.

Toy iPads can be fun but if you want to get real work done with professional software you have to look elsewhere.

 

[mojaverat]

I find a good trackpad negates the need for a touch screen computer. I'm a little old fashioned, I suppose.

I agree and, for me, it's much more efficient to just reach a little over to the right (or left) of where my hands already are to use a device to point instead of needing to constantly reach up and touch a small screen. I have felt from day 1 that Apple should make the iPad mouse compatible. Just freaking do it! It's no sweat off their nuts and they don't alienate a large part of the market that way.

 

[Radon87000]

It depends how you define productivity. I know a couple of writers who only have iPads & separate keyboards. The device works for them alone. There is no right or wrong - it is entirely dependent on each persons usage and needs, thus blanket statements about one or the other, + assumptions on productivity don't really amount to a hill of beans at the end of the day because the very definition of productivity is liquid.

Except the Surface can still do the same things the iPad Pro can and offers better tools and convenience.The iPad Pro does not even have mouse support or any proper developer tools.I use AutoCAD on a daily basis and the difference between the OSX and iOS version is night and day.
Name me one single productivity task that the iPad Pro does and the Surface cannot.On the other hand I know SEVERAL productivity applications the surface can do and the iPad Pro cannot.And unfortunately the iPad Pro at 700+ is asking to be compared with proper laptops like XPS 13 and hybrids like the Surface.There just isn't a good reason to buy a oversized Air 2 tablet until Apple starts allowing free trials,proper developer and large screen support

 

[MRU]

Except the Surface can still do the same things the iPad Pro can and offers better tools and convenience.The iPad Pro does not even have mouse support or any proper developer tools.I use AutoCAD on a daily basis and the difference between the OSX and iOS version is night and day.
Name me one single productivity task that the iPad Pro does and the Surface cannot.On the other hand I know SEVERAL productivity applications the surface can do and the iPad Pro cannot.And unfortunately the iPad Pro at 700+ is asking to be compared with proper laptops like XPS 13 and hybrids like the Surface.There just isn't a good reason to buy a oversized Air 2 tablet until Apple starts allowing free trials,proper developer and large screen support

I've explained in the thread several areas where the iPad works better than the Surface Pro, I don't feel the need to repeat. The fact remains that the definition of productivity is fluid. There will be instances where a persons needs will be served better by one over the other. Likewise people need to also understand that for some a device that does less and focuses on a few jobs well is more productive than a device that can do many other things causing distraction and less focus from the end user - hence less productivity (hence why many organisations limit functionality of office computers, such as internet & social media access). So again the very definition is not fixed its entirely fluid.

Buy whichever device serves you better for the tasks you need it to do. There is no definitive better or worse - its dependent on the end users needs.

Whether it be surface pro, surface, iPad Pro, iPad or even Pixel C etc ... If one matches your needs and uses better than the others, then buy that and use it. The constant arguing the toss over very fluid definitions and varying uses/needs that are all individual and niche is simple moribundity.

 

[I7guy]

Except the Surface can still do the same things the iPad Pro can and offers better tools and convenience.The iPad Pro does not even have mouse support or any proper developer tools.I use AutoCAD on a daily basis and the difference between the OSX and iOS version is night and day.
Name me one single productivity task that the iPad Pro does and the Surface cannot.On the other hand I know SEVERAL productivity applications the surface can do and the iPad Pro cannot.And unfortunately the iPad Pro at 700+ is asking to be compared with proper laptops like XPS 13 and hybrids like the Surface.There just isn't a good reason to buy a oversized Air 2 tablet until Apple starts allowing free trials,proper developer and large screen support

Different strokes for different folks. Sp4 is amazing. My wife loves it as a laptop and desktop replacement. Her iPad also gets a significant workout because it's NOT Windows. When the two iPads in the house bite the dust I'll think of an IPP replacement.

 

[spinedoc77]

Whether it be surface pro, surface, iPad Pro, iPad or even Pixel C etc ... If one matches your needs and uses better than the others, then buy that and use it. The constant arguing the toss over very fluid definitions and varying uses/needs that are all individual and niche is simple moribundity.

All joking aside, these forums wouldn't even exist if forum members did that!! But I agree, they are both great devices and their usefulness is only dependent on the consumers needs.

 

[MRU]

All joking aside, these forums wouldn't even exist if forum members did that!!

True.. Lol

Though a bit of peace & quiet now and again wouldn't go amis

 

[businezguy]

I guess I'll add my two cents to this thread. I bought a Surface Pro 3 in June because I'm extending my education and needed a portable computer. I was extremely disappointed with my purchase to the extent that I purchased a Macbook Pro and planned to sell my Surface Pro 3. You can read some of my older posts if you want to read about my displeasure with the Pro 3 in the past.

About a week ago I decided to get out my Pro 3 because I planned to downgrade it to 8.1 to make it a more capable tablet since I'm between iPads and planned to wait for the iPad Air 3. Anyway, a major update of Windows 10 made me decide to give it a try. Let me tell you something, I haven't put the thing down since. Most of the major issues I was complaining about have been squashed leaving a device I am completely enjoying. Really, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I am really enjoying my Surface Pro 3!

Now to be fair there are still some issues. If I put the device into sleep mode the battery will drain a bit, so I need to shut it down completely. I have the taskbar on autohide and sometimes in tablet mode it won't come up with I slide my finger over it. While using the device in tablet mode has improved by multitudes, I still find buttons to be too small although not enough to make it difficult to use. I still need to use a separate mouse for the best experience because the trackpad blows (although people are saying the new one is way better, along with the keyboard).

The problem is now that the device is has so many of these bugs squashed, I'm finding it has some pretty freakin compelling advantages. With my Macbook Pro, the keyboard is always attached so it limits my comfort for reading and I tend to read a lot of digital books and other content. My iMac is fun to read content on, but again I like to move around sometimes or go out and that's obviously limiting too. An iPad is an outstanding consumption device but without a bulky case I need to either hold it in my hands or lay it flat on a surface. I'm finding that with my Surface, the tablet mode is working quite well, and due to the kickstand allowing me to sit and keep the device at a comfortable reading angle without the need to use my hands. I'm finding that when I type in "laptop" mode like I'm doing right now, the device is working about as well as the Macbook Pro.

I started using Macs when Mac OS X came out because I saw the incredible potential it had. Even in its early stages, I found Mac OS X made Windows look like a bad joke. I also found that Microsoft would CONSTANTLY make promises that never came true, like some drug addict sociopath uncle. So I've been loyal to Apple because they have consistently made a better product than anything Windows could offer. Now I'm faced with an interesting development. Microsoft may have, albeit clumsily, made a product that is more compelling than anything Apple can offer.

Believe me, I am not saying any of this lightly, and I'm certainly going to be cautious. For instance, Windows 10 forces updates, and I'll be the first to come on here and complain about one causing me issues. And it wouldn't surprise me if that happened, either (Microsoft hasn't proven trustworthy in the past). But right now, for the past week, the Surface Pro 3 has been my go to tablet and laptop. I simply put the device/keyboard/stylus in my bag, save myself 1.5 pounds vs. the Macbook Pro, and find I have a device that's far more versatile than my Macbook Pro.

I'm going to give it a few months and if I continue enjoying this device as much as I am, I'm going to sell my Macbook Pro, and my iMac and I'll find myself using my iPhone as my only Apple device. God help Apple if Microsoft is able to build a Windows eco system that extends to their future Surface Phone. Microsoft, let me give you some advice right now. When you release your Surface Phone, make sure you release a device with few bugs. You guys are moving in the right direction, but you need to build some serious credibility.

Here's some advice for Apple as well. You'd better go back to focusing on a few *good* products instead of extending yourselves so much. It took a long time to build Rome, but it didn't take too long for it to fall.

 

[Roadstar]

Microsoft, let me give you some advice right now. When you release your Surface Phone, make sure you release a device with few bugs. You guys are moving in the right direction, but you need to build some serious credibility.

Here's some advice for Apple as well. You'd better go back to focusing on a few *good* products instead of extending yourselves so much. It took a long time to build Rome, but it didn't take too long for it to fall.

Judging from the 950 XL I'm test driving right now they have quite a lot to improve if they want to produce a game-changing Surface Phone. Now they've just managed to create a 700€ device that feels like a 300€ device.

And yes, Apple definitely needs to refocus and start paying attention to quality again.

 

[businezguy]

Judging from the 950 XL I'm test driving right now they have quite a lot to improve if they want to produce a game-changing Surface Phone. Now they've just managed to create a 700€ device that feels like a 300€ device.

And yes, Apple definitely needs to refocus and start paying attention to quality again.

That doesn't surprise me. I know the CEO has been downplaying the phone release. What scares me about that is that Microsoft is still not completely getting it. When a product is released with your companies logo on it you are putting your companies name on the line.

 

[MRU]

Judging from the 950 XL I'm test driving right now they have quite a lot to improve if they want to produce a game-changing Surface Phone. Now they've just managed to create a 700€ device that feels like a 300€ device.

And yes, Apple definitely needs to refocus and start paying attention to quality again.

Yeah the reviews have been less than stellar. Pocketnow were particularly damning.

 

[Blaze4G]

I was initially against the IPP in this thread. However after reading various members who are defending IPP, I now agree with you guys.

For me personally I would not own either IPP or surface pro. Walking around with an ultrabooks vs one of these hybrids is not a big difference to me and i prefer working on a laptop for the extra screen real estate. However I do understand if persons find it more convenient.

 

[I7guy]

I was initially against the IPP in this thread. However after reading various members who are defending IPP, I now agree with you guys.

For me personally I would not own either IPP or surface pro. Walking around with an ultrabooks vs one of these hybrids is not a big difference to me and i prefer working on a laptop for the extra screen real estate. However I do understand if persons find it more convenient.

There's a very big market out there for the SP4. It may not meet everyones needs, but it's a very convenient tool. The extra laptop real estate is nice, but that real estate gets balanced with portability.

As far as the IPP, there's a market that's different than the SP4. Most people will know what they need and want.

 

[Three141]

I'll drop a pennies worth

After the whole waiting for Arrandale I finally got the i5 13" MBP in 2011 and it was a great laptop but as I mainly bootcamped into Windows when it was time to upgrade I opted to get the Surface pro 2 when the SP3 was announced (better bargain).
It was the best decision I ever made, no bloatware, speedy updates and great synchronisation amongst my MS devices particularly MS Onenote.
I bought the docking station, a USB keyboard and trackpad and use it as my sole computer I've had no problems with windows 8.1 and 10 so far MS hit this one out of the park.

I am just awaiting the inevitable surface phone to compare with the IPhone.

In terms of the future of the Surface and iPad pro my view is:

Ipad pro, Apple will not be making an OSX version of this as they don't need to; for the simple reason that developers love Apple and will make their desktop apps available or scaled down to Ipad pro and as the mobile chips get better the scaling down won't need to be as large and developers will find it easy to have apps to scale.
At its heart the Ipad pro carries the Apple spirit of appealing to creative types ala stylus and eventually Apple will find the right weight for the product.

Surface pro: MS will continue with the full OS route as consumers will not accept a mobile OS from MS as we found out with Windows RT and windows 7 starter, many found these confusing thus MS was forced to go drop it and stick with a full OS, which is working well as the OS almost seems designed around the surface and not to every tom, dick and harry PC box which has made it work.

 

[Robstevo]

I was going to get the surface pro 4 until I read up all the bad reviews on battery life. For me it's a terrible situation where they have hardly increased battery in the last 2 or so years despite the fact intel have very clearly improved their chips dramatically.

 

[Radon87000]

Yeah the reviews have been less than stellar. Pocketnow were particularly damning.

Judging from the 950 XL I'm test driving right now they have quite a lot to improve if they want to produce a game-changing Surface Phone. Now they've just managed to create a 700€ device that feels like a 300€ device.

And yes, Apple definitely needs to refocus and start paying attention to quality again.

The 950 is just a stop gap measure meant to satisfy the Windows fans.Panos Panay the guy who designed the Surface wasn't that much involved with these phones.The real Windows phone will be released 2016 under the brand Surface which will compete with iPhone

There's a very big market out there for the SP4. It may not meet everyones needs, but it's a very convenient tool. The extra laptop real estate is nice, but that real estate gets balanced with portability.

As far as the IPP, there's a market that's different than the SP4. Most people will know what they need and want.

The Surface costs less than the iPad Pro.The Surface keyboard costs less than iPad Pro.And on top of that the Surface has full featured desktop apps something the iPP will never have