The base prices of both are nearly equal with the sp4 i7/16/1tb being way more expensive than the ipp. The sp4 scales in power memory as sdd while the ipp scales in memory and Lte. People who are out to buy them know which one they need/want.
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Surface Pro 4 vs iPad Pro and the future of pro tablets
- Thread starter Wiesenlooser
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I almost spit my coffee out when I read downgrading to 8.1 to make it a better tablet. Glad to see you snapped out of it.
Having desktop apps and more functionality doesn't equal better and that's what people keep failing to realize. Let's take a simple example:
A utility (power plant) has 1000 employees, 800 of which are responsible for plant maintenance and walk around the plant maintaining assets. In the past, they would never have carried a laptop, they would have been issued with a work order which included copies of the work instructions to perform the tasks they were assigned on paper.
In the modern age, they are issued with tablets in a rugged case with a mobile work order application which issues them the work order combined with the work instructions, drawing etc that they need to perform the task. There are no tables in the plants, there are no places to sit down and use a mouse and keyboard. Having a mobile application means you can train them to use the application quickly and they can work with a device which often have extended battery life over a laptop (rugged case with extended battery pack). Laptops have been available but have never been suitable for the task, for the same reason that couriers don't carry laptops and use PDA's. So of your total workforce, 200 users have desktops, maybe 100 of the 800 have laptops because they may be supervisors or content creators and the balance have tablets.
Now in this case, having a laptop is actually worse so having more functionality, access to desktop applications or anything else that comes with a desktop OS (including OSX) is actually a bad thing.
This example is not unique.
I think that's the challenge with Tech Writers. They never get out of their IT towers to see how people actually apply technology. They think IT use is confined to email, writing articles and editing photos in Photoshop so of course the desktop seems like a better option.
That is the lousiest excuse for releasing two devices that are simply unready software wise and uninspired (being kind) design wise. And an insult to those who are genuinely windows fans.
Here's a windows phone fan and professional reviewer who echoes exactly what the majority are saying
By the time a surface pro arrives the only ones who will care about Windows Phone will be the die-hard fans. They needed to start pulling people back to the platform and all they have done with the 950 & 950 XL is release two unfinished handsets that lack pretty much everything that had won fans in the first instance. It's quite clear - especially after they sacked most of the folks working on mobile phone devices - then go on to release these devices - that they don't really care about their space in the mobile phone market anymore.
I have supported windows phone since Windows Phone 7 and have had a myriad of Windows handsets. Last three were the 1020, 1520 and 930... Yet given the response theses devices have recieved critically, given the dip in quality hardware wise (build quality) and frankly unready / poor software experience - the fact that the real main issue with Windows phone i.e. a lack of apps still hasn't been addressed, added to the fact they stopped all development on adding android app support - I don't think ill be holding my breath for another 6-12 months in vain hope that a 'surface' phone is going to make the situation any better.
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MS fan too.
I will ecko that I heard the same thing Radon87000 did in relation to these phones being the last ones to be released by the old team before the surface team takes over and release their phone this year, this was being said before the press conference and is the only reason I have not moved from my 1520 to an iPhone 6s+ as I am waiting to see what the Surface team can do.
Surface phone will be it from me, if MS don't fix the issues with this phone then I will go back to the Iphone (not interested in Android).
I don't blame you for thinking 'I've heard this before' as on Windows Central the sentiment is the same.
You make a good point about timing, I think it was silly not to release a surface phone with tablet and laptop especially with the momentum going their way. Added benefit was Apple was in the 'S' cycle of iPhones but releasing it next year head to head against a (assumed) redesigned IPhone might weaken it.
Got the Apple Pencil. Now up and running with my cintiq alternative.
I respectfully disagree. I am a fan of creating simple interfaces that are easily accessible on the go. And in your example, you refer to some of the more downstream uses for these interfaces (performing maintenance), and it seems like a perfect use for them.
I specialize in creating detailed design CAD drawings (possibly some that those maintenance personnel use); and in my opinion, such complex programs such as autocad and solidworks just can't be condensed into a simple form. With touch interface, icons and menus need to be bigger for accuracy, and thus they need to be condensed into several sub-menus, and it is just highly inconvenient. So for these cases (which is a major portion of my computing time) desktop apps are better. I can concede that any sort of consumption is better on mobile form, but for content creation outside of documents, it's tough to go outside of desktop without having sacrifices (at least in my field). I'm still waiting for an ms word on mobile with a formula creation feature that the desktop version has... I think that alone says a lot.
From a consumption perspective, tablets are definitely the future; but some things are still to complex to do on a tablet interfaces without compromise. I've been a long standing apple fan, but I am highly considering the surface pro 4 for the tablet form factor, desktop class productivity, and even a tablet mode for when simplicity is needed.
(I apologize if this is unrelated to the current conversation, I just entered this thread and am readin back to catch up)
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I agree with the bolded sentence. What I am curious about is, how often do you need to do tasks not suited for tablets while away from your desk? Do you travel a lot? Also, would you do your cad work on a 12-inch laptop? If yes, I can see why you might consider the Surface, but I keep thinking a 12-inch workspace is too cramped for complex design work. Am I wrong?
Well that is literally all I use my desktop for. And it pains me that I need a dedicated device solely for this (I use my iPad mini for everything else). Sadly, the desktop is only at the office, but I do use solidworks frequently as a hobby designing a tiny house. I travel a lot locally, but nothing more than 30 miles.
Oh yeah, screen size isn't too much of an issue for me. I currently use my iPad Air 2 to remote into the desktop, so a 12" screen would actually be an improvement from my current home use
honestly it's about the resolution. I'm the type of guy that enjoys a size 8 font on word documents. As long as I'm able to set a moderately high resolution, I have no problem with the icon size as long as I gain more real estate.I'd really love to get the surface book, but I'm not a fan of needing the keyboard for 75% of the battery
Aaah, that would allow you to do real work on 12 inch screens. Me, I want fonts at around 14 points to feel comfortable.
And Surface Book strikes me as a good idea, but weird execution. As you say, the tablet part needs a bit more battery life. And that gap when you close the thing... I have a feeling Apple will eventually end up making something like the Surface Book, and people will accuse them of copying / following Microsoft, but Apple's execution would be more elegant.
No, it is relevant. My point about tablets is simple:
Who is the desktop relevant to? You or the maintenance technicians who simply need to view the drawing while walking around the plant?
Obviously you need a desktop to edit the CAD drawing, that's pretty obvious, but in a company you may have 1-10 draughtsmen and about 400 people who just need to view. The 400 people who need to view it gain no benefit of a full desktop application by having one, in fact, a desktop app more often than not may be too complex for a person who doesn't use CAD often.
So yes, desktops will always be required, but the idea that something like a desktop is more suitable for every user is flawed and thats where the statement "more functionality doesn't necessarily equal better" comes from. For you, more functionality is important, but you are a content creator. For the average consumer of your content, there is not benefit to a desktop application and they could have disadvantages.
Well that is literally all I use my desktop for. And it pains me that I need a dedicated device solely for this (I use my iPad mini for everything else). Sadly, the desktop is only at the office, but I do use solidworks frequently as a hobby designing a tiny house. I travel a lot locally, but nothing more than 30 miles.
Oh yeah, screen size isn't too much of an issue for me. I currently use my iPad to remote into the desktop, so a 12" screen would actually be an improvement from my current home use
I'd really love to get the surface book, but I'm not a fan of needing the keyboard for 75% of the battery
Agreed! Yeah the hinge is a great design concept, but I as well despise that gap. I would love an Apple version of the surface book. I just don't know how long it will be
I'm hoping this year with iOS 10 they do something exponential![doublepost=1453560570][/doublepost]
Yes desktops are overkill for what they need. But I'm just using the "all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares" argument. Theoretically, they could use desktops-class apps for their jobs, but not everyone can use mobile-class apps for theirs.
I'm not arguing that desktop are more suitable for everyone, but their functionality will always be needed. Well the difference is, it depends on the user using it. For those who don't need that functionality, obviously having it won't be any benefit. But for those who do, it's a must. Like I said, I came in mid convo; I presumed your conversation was in relation to desktop class apps being worse in general and not necessary at all. But without the desktop-class, there would be less content for consumption on the tablet-class
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I would love an Apple version of the surface book. I just don't know how long it will be
I'm thinking not this year, but in another year or two. And now that I'm thinking more about it, I think what might happen is that the Smart Keyboard will improve, and the iPP / iOS will get powerful enough, that it will start approaching Surface Book in power and functionality. You know, Microsoft spends all this effort on multi-angle tilt, like the hinge for Surface Book and the kickstand for Surface, but perhaps that adds too much complexity to the device design. Apple's solutions have so far been just one angle, but elegant. The current Smart Keyboard, however, feels a bit clumsy in the way it folds -- I'm thinking that design needs rethinking, into something closer to Surface Book, rather than a modified Smart Cover.
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I'm not arguing that desktop are more suitable for everyone, but their functionality will always be needed. Well the difference is, it depends on the user using it. For those who don't need that functionality, obviously having it won't be any benefit. But for those who do, it's a must. Like I said, I came in mid convo; I presumed your conversation was in relation to desktop class apps being worse in general and not necessary at all. But without the desktop-class, there would be less content for consumption on the tablet-class
I've been involved in multiple threads, so I can't recall quite what was said in which thread, but I don't think anyone ever claimed that there was no need for desktop class apps. I think there are some people advocating that touch based UI is the future, and the mouse and keyboard based UI should go the way of the dodo, but that doesn't mean they want content creation apps to go away. They just think the UI for content creation apps should be modified to be touch based. And then there is the thought that giving feature-rich systems to people who don't need all the features make things unnecessarily complicated. In your case, nobody is saying YOU shouldn't have your CAD program to make the diagrams, but they think giving the field workers devices that can run your CAD programs is not only overkill, but might get in the way of field workers trying to accomplish THEIR jobs.
What you say falls flat pretty quickly. Why is there such a robust market for macbooks? Why do surveys show the vast majority of ipad owners also have a laptop? Obviously those consumers need something more than the ipad for some unknown unfathomable reason.
Look I get what you are saying. But I think the opposite way, LESS functionality is not necessarily better. In fact, with all other things being equal, I'd say why would anyone want to hamstring themselves with LESS functionality if there is no cost to having increased functionality.
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Throw a windows tablet into the argument and suddenly it doesn't work. The power plant worker has a surface 3, which he can use without sitting down and without a mouse, which works well when they are in the field. Now that same worker gets to sit down and prepare all his reports, suddenly his tablet is a full desktop and he is not functionally limited, they get the best of both worlds without having to choose between them or compromise.
Moral of the story: More functionality with no compromise, aka better bang for the buck.
To take it a step further I think iOS in some ways is LESS functional as a tablet. Microsoft got it right in windows 10 where they took the OS and adjusted the scaling, menus, etc so you got some desktop functionality while using it in touch mode. It really works well in tablet/touch mode. On the other hand iOS can be too simplified. This lean towards dumbifying the user interface has gone a bit too far IMO, there are just some things you are not going to get done, or will actually spend more time figuring out how to do with that kind of forced simplicity.
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Got the Apple Pencil. Now up and running with my cintiq alternative.
Blimey that looks a bit cramped buddy? It looks very cool sat there like that though
I'm getting a new toy next month as it's my birthday, I've asked for something that's been intreaging me for a while now, the Nvidia Shield TV, it'll match my Fire TV and I'm keen to give the gaming a go. I was also thinking if a Fitbit till they started to be sued for inaccurate heart rate monitoring!
Anyway, saw this video of a pro user ranting on Apple, he mentions the iPad Pro in the video:
Why is there a demand for MacBooks? Because I group desktops and laptops into the same group. I.e. full operating systems. Whether you have to take it home or just leave it on a desk, when we're comparing to true tablets, it's easier to group them.
On the issue of windows tablet, it's an easy answer...because it's actually not that good a device. It's a poor tablet. It's slow. And it lacks apps. So it has a couple of compromises. The Microsoft App store is terrible. Yes, people can build apps for them, but nobody wants to, which is why you get a great selection of desktop apps and almost no tablet apps. The simple answer is people would either get a surface pro or a proper tablet, but my guess is the surface (non-pro model) sales are probably dismal.
Well that's the question I'm asking, why is there a demand for the "desktop"? Why do ipad owners still have a need to have a portable desktop device? aka a laptop.
As for the windows tablet, I highly disagree. Certainly it's subjective and based on my uses and needs though. We also should clarify which tablet we are talking about. Certainly the surface 3 and the surface pro 4 are NOT slow in the least, that's patently false so let's just get that out of the way.
The Microsoft app store is indeed terrible, although I've started threads before and no one really had many solid answers as to what app they needed that they couldn't find a substitute for another way on windows. I'm not arguing though, if you need "apps" then you certainly have a good point, although a better point is that iOS desktop program store is terrible, well actually non-existent. I've ditched apps on a tablet as primitive a long time ago though when windows tablets came out and I realized I didn't have to compromise anymore having blown up phone apps on my tablet which lacked functionality I required.
Can't speak for anybody else, but I for one find that with the iPad Pro, I no longer need a laptop. Still need a desktop, though, but not a laptop -- iPP fills my portable computing needs. Anything I can't do on iPP can wait until I get home.
BTW, if I were taking a survey, I'd say I still own a laptop, because I do, even though it's permanently parked on a desk acting as a desktop. But unless the survey asks me how I'm using my laptop, I have no way of specifying that.
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If you put it that way, it's hard to come up with examples, because any task people need to do on a computer, there's probably a Windows desktop app for it. But the thing is, when I'm using a tablet, I want to do things using touch-based apps, not fight my way trying to manipulate desktop UI with my fingers. For that, as you say, Windows App Store is terrible. And unless the situation improves, I'm not going to consider a Windows tablet or hybrid device.
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Hopefully, I'm curious to see what they will do. Yeah honestly the kickstand is kind of what drove me away from surface pros; functionality wise, it's great, but the aesthetics of it didn't appeal to me. But now it doesn't seem to bother me as much as it used to. Yeah and it's the first generation of they keyboard. It will definitely improve over time.
Oh I agree that touch interface is the future! But sometimes the mouse pointer could be really useful for precision. I was using the iPad's feature on the keyboard to move the cursor around, and was wondering if there could be a pointer that appeared as it happened. So it's there when needed, but not always just floating around on the screen.
I'd like to see all my CAD software conformed into a mobile format, but remains as powerful and efficient as the desktop versions. It's all in the development of them of course. I'm hopeful for a future where this is the case, but I'm pretty skeptical about it happening anytime soon... Solidworks isn't even compatible on macs yet
I had to use a vm to use it on my MacBook. Overall, I feel like we are all moving to that direction, but I feel like we won't get there for everyone at least for the next decade. Hopefully it's a lot sooner!
If you can live with just apps, no mouse support, etc then I can see the IPP working well for you. This is all so subjective and at the end of the day all we are really saying is "This works for my setup but not yours", but it's always a great discussion. For me I've actually been able to ditch the desktop, laptop, etc, I can run my entire computer life on my windows tablet, and I push it hard. I'd hate to travel somewhere though and be stuck without a computer and only an ipad though, maybe a seminar or an overnight stay in a hotel, vacation, etc.
I hear you on apps, once again subjective. I've always preferred desktop programs versus the apps, maybe I'm just used to them. Windows 10 really really improved scaling so there are no more small menus, or UI elements for the most part. But as I said before, if apps makes or breaks your experience then I don't blame you for using the IPP. I think what you say was more true before windows 8.1 came out and redefined windows on a tablet, although the desktop still had issues. But with windows 10 the issues of using the desktop with touch on a tablet are pretty much solved IMO, and the way Microsoft went about it is superior to iOS IMO because they didn't have to sacrifice the incredible functionality windows desktop offers. This is where people are slowly starting to understand MS strategy, they are scaling windows to be functional on any screen and in any mode/paradigm. Part of this is continuum where the app can morph functionally whether it's on a phone versus being on a tablet or big screen.
To get a bit deeper into good old fashioned "apps", windows has all the consumption apps there for those who prefer to be ultra simple like on iOS. Video, photo, email, calendar, etc. are all represented by apps which are just as good if not better than iOS, once again subjective and my own personal feel having used both for years. The apps argument almost always ends up with maybe a couple of apps here and there, which differ depending on the person but don't point out a huge hole.
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See that's nuts IMO, the kickstand on the surface is THE invention of the decade IMO. It's so versatile, yet unobtrusive. I cannot fathom how a tablet can be released in this day and age without some kind of build in kickstand. The surface book hinge on the other hand I'm not a big fan of, I think they tried too hard when they really didn't need to and it doesn't work that well.
I fold, unfold the kickstand, fold, unfold the type cover, attach, unattach the type cover, etc constantly when I use my SP4, I mean constantly. It's amazing how well it morphs to what I'm doing. I can be around the house and typing a long report at my desk, go to the sofa and lie down, sit down somewhere without a table, hang upside down on my inversion table (yes really), etc etc and the SP4 happily and easily morphs perfectly into all those situations physically. I don't think I could live with futzing around with a cover you had to play with to get situated right and which only had one angle, bleh.
Welcome to Surfacegate
https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/microsoft-surface/64095/welcome-to-surfacegate
https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/microsoft-surface/64095/welcome-to-surfacegate
I totally agree on it all being subjective. I do have a few things I like to do for which I still haven't found iOS apps, but that's what I have my iMac for. I don't need to do those things while I'm away from my desk. And for my main job, which is translating, I really don't need a mouse. In fact, I never liked using mouse on computers. Having to take my hand off the keyboard to manipulate the mouse always felt like an unnecessary interruption. With the keyboard shortcuts that were added in iOS 9, I find I have to take off my hand from the Bluetooth keyboard to touch the screen about as often as I have to move my hand to reach for the mouse when working on a desktop. In other words, the degree of inconvenience I feel is about the same either way. And when I'm typing on the on screen keyboard then all interaction with the iPad is through touch -- I don't have to keep switching between two different modes of input, mouse and keyboard. If I could manage to type as fast on the on screen keyboard as I can on the physical one, I'd just forego the external keyboard and go touch-only, but alas, my on screen typing speed isn't that fast.
As for Smart Cover versus kickstand, I guess maybe it's what you got used to first. I'm so used to folding up the Smart Cover, I do it automatically without thinking about it. I do sometimes think it would be useful to have multiple angles, but in practice, I can't think of a situation where I found it difficult to do something on the iPad because it only had one angle. I'm sure I could get used to the kickstand if I used it every day, but whenever I tried it in a store, it felt awkward.
Windows 8 and 10, I've never actually spent long enough using them on tablets to really evaluate how they work as tablet OS. But again, seeing them in stores and reading reviews about them, I've never felt like I wanted to plunk down money to buy one so I could give it a real go. I feel like Windows 10 devices are for people who want a laptop that sometimes functions as a tablet. And I really don't need a laptop, just a tablet plus a desktop.
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I can't stand that moron, he's wrong 90% of the time. Anyhow I've seen MS fix most of these issues in my time with several SP4's. The only issue that persists for me is lower than expected battery life when in sleep, it probably eats 5% or so per hour when sleeping, but not when it hibernates. If you set the hibernation time sooner it's not an issue, but of course that's a poor solution. I haven't seen a GPU crash, hot bag, or wake issues in months.
The surface book is another story, that hinge mechanism is terrible and a clear example of over engineering. But hey, it's first gen, the SP1 had growing pains and so did the ipad 1. Still no excuse, but it's not unexpected either.
Several SP4's? How many did you have to buy to get past the issues?
In this case he's right. Go have a look at the surface forums and most of the people there admit the Surface Book and Surface Pro 4's have had more issues than any Apple release.
I completely agree Which is why Microsoft will definitely NEVER be number one and not over take Apple in the tablet market because basically on Windows all of the desktop programs are designed ONLY for mouse input and are not designed for touch and the Windows OS is designed for desktops which is definitely not that good on tablets which it is definitely not a good experience compared to mobile OS's on tablets.
And as for Apple(and Google) on IOS(and Android) they have all of the apps/games(from the App Store/Play Store) designed for touch from the start and and IOS is designed for mobile/tablets/touch screens and not desktops which it makes IOS(the same with Android) way way better on tablets then Windows and the experience is definitely sooooo sooooo much better on tablets having Apps/Games that are designed for touch rather then having desktop programs that is ONLY designed for mouse input.
And this is exactly why Apple with there iPads are the king of tablets and number 1 in the tablet market and will definitely remain the case in the future!!!!
Completely Agree!!!
Read my post(above).
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