To a lot of developers : I'm tired of subscribing to your app!

[BigMcGuire]

What I don't get is how companies think the average Joe can afford to use all of their applications at a cost of $40/year. I did a rough count of my applications that I feel are essential that I use regularly - 17 or so applications. That's (rounding up here) $60/mo.

Now, granted, some of these applications already have subscriptions. I pay Carrot Weather, Office 365 Family, Apple News, Music, - I won't list them all, but I'm already way past my red line in subscription fatigue.

Doesn't bother me if people pay subscriptions. What bothers me is that I'd love to try new things and look at using different applications to benefit my life but I'm holding off because I believe I'm paying for too much already.

It was a lot more fun, all the years up to now, to buy an application, not feel forced to use it, and then know that my $ went to help. But subscriptions - I'd have to use an application X months/years to get that same effect.

As a developer myself, I know how expensive AWS calls are and in this "cloud" centric application world, I get it. I don't like it. My work has an AWS payment that is in the mid hundreds a month. Small changes made that swing into the thousands per month easily (features for users).


Now that I have a Windows PC at home - I'm much more on the lookout for cross platform applications. I've found Diarium to replace Day One. More devs need to do this - use existing cloud to sync the data instead of a proprietary "cloud" that'll die when the company dies.

 

[uehithneu]

What I don't get is how companies think the average Joe can afford to use all of their applications at a cost of $40/year. I did a rough count of my applications that I feel are essential that I use regularly - 17 or so applications. That's (rounding up here) $60/mo.

Regarding F3: Some folks have speculated that Flexibits looking to drop 'average Joes' and, instead, focus on business users + self-proclaimed 'pro' users. Which makes sense as a business strategy. But does not in any way support the aggressive move to do upgrade in place (because lots of F2 users are average Joes). Wish Apple would regulate pricing but really it's in Apple's interest for developers to force subscriptions.

 

[NoBoMac]

More devs need to do this - use existing cloud to sync the data instead of a proprietary "cloud" that'll die when the company dies.

And users need to start thinking along these lines. Cost of exit: what happens if X goes under and now your data is locked in a proprietary database/cloud/app with no hope of exporting to something else.

 

[meady100]

I don't get why people rail against subscriptions. You don't like it don't pay for it. I don't care if it's donationware, shareware, a site license, a subscription, a perpetual license, or anything else as long as it's of value to me.

They rail because it's a well known sleight of hand, leading people to paying a much (often MUCH) higher total price than they anticipate when subscribing. Human nature has a completely disproportionate sense of worth spread over time and it allows the greedy to get very fat.

 

[sundialsoft]

As a user I only have one subscription for an iOS app and that's an annual payment for an app which uses a server to share information between users.

As an iOS developer I price my apps at the lowest tier and only ask for a one off payment so $0.99c etc. I don't like regular subscriptions and I am sometimes surprised at large numbers of people paying for a subscription app and ignoring my humble efforts which do the same job as the popular subscription apps.

For TV I pay for Netflix and may well pay for Apple TV+ if the content arrives.

 

[ducknalddon]

As an iOS developer I price my apps at the lowest tier and only ask for a one off payment so $0.99c etc. I don't like regular subscriptions and I am sometimes surprised at large numbers of people paying for a subscription app and ignoring my humble efforts which do the same job as the popular subscription apps.

You might be underpricing your apps. People value things by how much they pay for them. Years ago I saw my sales volume improve after I increased my prices. I've also seen the effect in consulting where even the same customers treated me differently (better) after I raised my prices.

Don't undervalue your work.

 

[stridemat]

MOD NOTE

We have removed a number of bickering posts from this thread. Please keep things civil moving forward.

 

[zorinlynx]

One thing about subscription apps that can be irritating is that there are a few apps that I use very rarely, but I still need. I'm happy to pay even $15 for such an app, once, so it's there when I need it. But a few bucks a month adds up fast and if I'm only launching the app twice a year it doesn't feel worth it at all.

There should be two classes of apps, really:

- Apps that require infrastructure that the devs provide; this can certainly justify being subscription. (Example: RadarScope, Carrot Weather)
- Apps that run entirely locally your device and don't need dev infrastructure. These shouldn't be subscription; just charge for new major versions. (Example: Blink shell, PCalc)

And FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, if there's a cost to purchase an app up front AND the app has in-app purchases, there should be reasonable value in the features that come by default with no additional IAP!

 

[uehithneu]

There should be two classes of apps, really:

- Apps that require infrastructure that the devs provide; this can certainly justify being subscription. (Example: RadarScope, Carrot Weather)
- Apps that run entirely locally your device and don't need dev infrastructure. These shouldn't be subscription; just charge for new major versions. (Example: Blink shell, PCalc)

F3 sits in grey area between those two categories because Flexibits creeps the featureset so as to push for perpetual payment.

I for one would be happy to see high-priced 'buy once' pricepoint alongside subscription pricepoints. For instance: If the price per year is $40 then require that a 'buy once' pricepoint be offered in the amount of $40 x3? $40 x4? Only someone who's averse to paying rent would pay so much upfront. This arrangement a win for subscribers, a win for buyers, a win for developer, a win for Apple.

 

[rpmurray]

What I don't get is how companies think the average Joe can afford to use all of their applications at a cost of $40/year. I did a rough count of my applications that I feel are essential that I use regularly - 17 or so applications. That's (rounding up here) $60/mo.

I'm going to take a guess hare that your cell phone plan is at least twice that and you probably spend more than that on crappy coffee from a well known franchise.

 

[jafd]

We cannot afford to pay your monthly rent!
I understand you need to live, make an app and I will be happy to pay for it because you put hours of work on it.
But once.

You know, living is something one does on an ongoing basis.

What if you really paid once, but then had no support? Because support is an ongoing cost.
What if you really paid once, but then had to live with all the bugs? Because bugfixing is an ongoing cost.
What if you really paid once, but couldn't synchronize your data on all other devices you own? Because infrastructure is an ongoing cost.
What if you really paid once, but a substantial sum instead of some measly $9.99? Because that's, multiplied by enough customers, is how "living" can be covered while the team is doing another app entirely.
What if you really paid once, but even a more substantial sum instead of some measly $999.99 from the previous paragraph, in exchange for a guarantee that there's no second tier of profit off you by, say, selling whatever the developer gets to know about you to advertising people?

 

[katbel]

You know, living is something one does on an ongoing basis.

So far we are living in free countries: do you like paying a monthly rate? Go for it 😊

 

[duanepatrick]

There is a "deadly" trend among developers: subscribe, subscribe !!
We cannot afford to pay your monthly rent!
I understand you need to live, make an app and I will be happy to pay for it because you put hours of work on it.
But once.
Are you going to add more value to your app? Then you will have n. 2 and if we find it's valuable we'll buy it.
What are you going to give me every month?! Who knows
You are going to take my money first, and fix bugs that shouldn't have been there.
Please, become less greedy 💰💰💰💰 and I will be your customer.

I'm a little bit triggered here...and I just wanna say, if you don't like it then don't buy it. Simple as that.

 

[Nermal]

- Apps that run entirely locally your device and don't need dev infrastructure. These shouldn't be subscription; just charge for new major versions. (Example: Blink shell, PCalc)

Agreed. One of the apps I have is essentially an ebook, but with a monthly subscription. So basically, if I read the whole thing in a month then it'll cost me $x. If it takes me two months to read it then I get the same content, but it costs me $2x. That's nothing short of greed.

 

[ignatius345]

Call it what it is: software rental.

Sure, developers need to eat, but too many are building a single app and then acting like they get to just live off that forever.

Example: I reluctantly pay for Ulysses (because I haven't found anything as good) and saw a blog post of theirs the other day where they mentioned they have a staff of over twenty people and were going on a winter retreat. This is a writing app, by the way. And honestly in the couple years since it turned into a rental they've mostly just noodled around with the interface of what was essentially a feature-complete app. Sure, there have been a few new features, but 95% of the functionality it has now, it had before it went to a rental model. Don't get me wrong, it's a great app and $40/year is not exactly killing me, but I really resent the principle of the thing.

You want to keep making a living as a software developer? Here's a radical idea: write another app and sell it.

The only software I'm aware of that's really doing this right is Agenda: the app is free to download, and they periodically add more powerful features to the paid tier. You subscribe to a year's worth of new pro features at a time, and at the end of that year those features are yours to keep using whether you renew or not. THAT is a subscription, and not a rental.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Ulysses got me upset. I paid the year, used it for awhile... begged for a automatic reorganized number list (for example: I put in 1-8, then add a number between 5 and 6... it should renumber the rest without me having to do it). They said they'd consider it, a year later nothing. Not that I think I'm so important, just for $40/year .... I mean... automatic reorganization of lists...


I eventually moved onto OneNote for my notes - Office 365 Family - $99/year my whole family (5 people) get Office (Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Acces, real time collaboration), 1TB of OneDrive, and cross platform for everything.

Mac has some REALLY nice applications - Day One is one of them. But now that I'm using Windows at home as my primary computing device... Hard to justify those apps at $30-$40 a year especially now that I'm Windows.

 

[uehithneu]

Call it what it is: software rental.

Sure, developers need to eat, but too many are building a single app and then acting like they get to just live off that forever.

Example: I reluctantly pay for Ulysses (because I haven't found anything as good) and saw a blog post of theirs the other day where they mentioned they have a staff of over twenty people and were going on a winter retreat. This is a writing app, by the way. And honestly in the couple years since it turned into a rental they've mostly just noodled around with the interface of what was essentially a feature-complete app. Sure, there have been a few new features, but 95% of the functionality it has now, it had before it went to a rental model. Don't get me wrong, it's a great app and $40/year is not exactly killing me, but I really resent the principle of the thing.

You want to keep making a living as a software developer? Here's a radical idea: write another app and sell it.

The only software I'm aware of that's really doing this right is Agenda: the app is free to download, and they periodically add more powerful features to the paid tier. You subscribe to a year's worth of new pro features at a time, and at the end of that year those features are yours to keep using whether you renew or not. THAT is a subscription, and not a rental.

This post on point.

App named 'Due' another one that's got Agenda-style pricing. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/due/id390017969 Also worth mentioning: Agenda devs really do put thought into the pricing scheme -- they raised the prices after a year, having added to the featureset.

So much of the F3 backlash would go away if only Flexibits would release upgrade bundle. But if Flexibits won't do that and if Flexibits won't add high-price 'buy once' pricepoint then perhaps we'll see the subscription prices rise. Afterall """devs need to eat""" and food won't drop in price but yet some subscribers will indeed smarten up--they'll stop paying rent--and, with any luck, the scathing App Store reviews will turn off new users thus leaving remaining subscribers to carry the burden. Nawww nothing naïve about this arrangement lol.

 

[TiggrToo]

This post on point.

App named 'Due' another one that's got Agenda-style pricing. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/due/id390017969 Also worth mentioning: Agenda really does put thought into the pricing scheme. Agenda devs raised the prices after a year, having added to the featureset.

So much of the F3 backlash would go away if only Flexibits would release upgrade bundle. But if Flexibits won't do that and if Flexibits won't add high-price 'buy once' pricepoint then perhaps we'll see the subscription prices rise. Afterall """devs need to eat""" and food won't drop in price but yet some subscribers will indeed smarten up--they'll stop paying rent--and, with any luck, the scathing App Store reviews will turn off new users thus leaving remaining subscribers to carry the burden. Nawww nothing naïve about this arrangement lol.

Carry what burden? If Flexibits don't deliver then us users simply stop subscribing and move elsewhere. When we move elsewhere then that competitor wins out.

Why do you continue to insist this is naivety? We're almost all asking informed decisions when we subscribe. Just because you and others don't like our decisions to subscribe to apps such as F3 doesn't make it wrong or naive.

 

[ducknalddon]

Why do you continue to insist this is naivety? We're almost all asking informed decisions when we subscribe. Just because you and others don't like our decisions to subscribe to apps such as F3 doesn't make it wrong or naive.

Whenever I hear people saying these companies are making a wrong decision I look at Adobe's revenue which briefly dipped but then increased by 50% over the next couple of years.

 

[uehithneu]

Whenever I hear people saying these companies are making a wrong decision I look at Adobe's revenue which briefly dipped but then increased by 50% over the next couple of years.

Whenever I see someone making a flimsy comparison between F3 and class-leading software I look at App Store reviews for F3, which speak the truth in the form of widespread criticism concerning one (or more) domain(s) other than pricing: featureset, functionality, privacy, roll-out, stability.

Fantastical - Calendar & Tasks
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/fantastical-calendar-tasks/id718043190#see-all/reviews

Adobe Creative Cloud
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/adobe-creative-cloud/id852473028#see-all/reviews

 

[Aika]

Now that I have a Windows PC at home - I'm much more on the lookout for cross platform applications. I've found Diarium to replace Day One. More devs need to do this - use existing cloud to sync the data instead of a proprietary "cloud" that'll die when the company dies.

Thank you for this recommendation, Diarium so far seems to be what I wanted. Finding good apps among the mountain of garbage in the Windows Store is really difficult!

 

[BigMcGuire]

Thank you for this recommendation, Diarium so far seems to be what I wanted. Finding good apps among the mountain of garbage in the Windows Store is really difficult!

I sent the developer an email and got a response right away. The person making this app is very active and very nice. I love that it imported my Day One text entries - and the iOS apps reference all photos I took that day in my iCloud photo library. Perfect!

Now I can type in my entries from my Windows PC at home and see them on my iPhone and iPad with my photos for the day.

Pretty happy with it - been using it for a month now --- it isn't as clean as Day One or as nice looking but the fact that it doesn't require a subscription and uses my own cloud, cross platform ... win. I'm here to stay.

 

[Partron22]

At some point, it becomes cheaper to just buy an older Mac, and use it to run Office, Photoshop 6 etc. etc. on that. I haven't seen major advances in the old staples for years. It's mostly just the requisite yearly Mod to keep up with Apple's ever changing OS. I don't care about that. I just want to stitch some photos together, or run a truly LARGE spreadsheet. The 8 to 10 year old software is up to that, so why rent a New version, when I have, or can get, an older Mac to do the work for a few $hundred, total layout. Fortunately I'm compulsive enough that I still have my Photoshop 1.0 install floppies sitting around in a box in the basement.

 

[ignatius345]

Ulysses got me upset. I paid the year, used it for awhile... begged for a automatic reorganized number list (for example: I put in 1-8, then add a number between 5 and 6... it should renumber the rest without me having to do it). They said they'd consider it, a year later nothing. Not that I think I'm so important, just for $40/year .... I mean... automatic reorganization of lists...

Similar experience here. I have wondered for the longest time why Ulysses doesn’t support Fountain, which is a markdown-like plain text screenwriting format. It would be a natural fit, and would keep pace with Scrivener which has screenplay formatting. Instead, the Ulysses team said they had no plans to support Fountain and directed me to their crappy “screenplay” export style which turns out horribly misformatted scripts. Meanwhile they added support for a bunch of CODING stuff. Sorry but, I was under the impression this was an app for writers.

Ulysses is a beautiful and well designed app but at this point I think they’re just coasting and taking their user base for granted. The “winter retreat” blog post totally rubbed me the wrong way too.

 

[Partron22]

Apple never did put a lockdown feature I iTunes, so your cat couldn't delete your playlists by walking on the keyboard. TRIVIAL, but they dumped iTunes before getting around to it. Lotta vendors just don't care. Apple's requirement for yearly updates for the latest greatest OS are an onerous enough burden for small development teams.