To a lot of developers : I'm tired of subscribing to your app!

[JD2015]

Well it is clear that people don't like subscription models and expect something once bought to be supported regardless the cost to the developer for many a year?

Maybe developers should then either have adverts left right and centre popping up all over the place and sell someones data? Or alternatively, we go back to the bad ole days when developers would charge for new versions and upgrades, Like Microsoft used to do with Office. If you do not like the product then tough you won't get your money back as no trials on offer. The previous product would not get updates or security patches of any sort. A developer can make that clear. upon purchase. If it continues to work then fine for the consumer but when it does not they cannot complain.

 

[revmacian]

Well it is clear that people don't like subscription models and expect something once bought to be supported regardless the cost to the developer for many a year?

Some people. I expect to purchase an app and have it work for as long as my system doesn't drastically change - I'm not expecting ongoing support at all. I don't buy an app without asking myself; "will this app work a year later if the developer never touches it again after my purchase?".. it's part of my pre-purchase planning. If, after purchase, the app is full of bugs, then I will respectfully request bug fixes or a refund (developer's choice) - because the app doesn't live up to the advertising. After that, the developer may never hear from me again.. other than a nice review for a great app.

 

[robgendreau]

Some people. I expect to purchase an app and have it work for as long as my system doesn't drastically change - I'm not expecting ongoing support at all. I don't buy an app without asking myself; "will this app work a year later if the developer never touches it again after my purchase?".. it's part of my pre-purchase planning. If, after purchase, the app is full of bugs, then I will respectfully request bug fixes or a refund (developer's choice) - because the app doesn't live up to the advertising. After that, the developer may never hear from me again.. other than a nice review for a great app.

I get that. I've done some of that myself.

And that would be fine for some simple stuff. But something as complex as say Photoshop along with online storage, educational support, synching, associated apps for mobile, web sites, plug in access, etc? not so much.

I guess people who only ever used Lr and none of the rest of those features and services would pine for a simple Lr and perpetual license, but Abode—like Apple and many others—is moving toward providing services as well, and a bundle of stuff more akin to what we used to get with site licenses. I don't know of many applications with associated online storage that are one-off fees, and as we see all too often any online storage that's free or only comes with a one-off fee is usually getting revenue through ads or other means. I'd rather pay a monthly fee.

But yeah, for just some standalone, no other services application a "perpetual" license works for me too...although I've had those programs become useless in less than a year as well, so always a gamble.

 

[revmacian]

I get that. I've done some of that myself.

And that would be fine for some simple stuff. But something as complex as say Photoshop..

I have actually been designing graphics for years - Distrowatch still uses some of the graphics I worked on almost a decade ago. I'll admit that I have to use more than one app in order to yield the same result as Photoshop, and it takes me more time and involves more steps, but I'm free of subscriptions. Things are only as complicated as you make them.

... online storage, educational support, synching, associated apps for mobile, web sites, plug in access, etc? not so much.

All of those things can be done by the user.. and I can rightfully say that because I actually do all of that myself on my computers. I'd rather do the work and learn what is necessary because it helps me to improve - paying a subscription for that does nothing more than drain my wallet.

I guess people who only ever used Lr and none of the rest of those features and services would pine for a simple Lr and perpetual license, but Abode—like Apple and many others—is moving toward providing services as well, and a bundle of stuff more akin to what we used to get with site licenses. I don't know of many applications with associated online storage that are one-off fees, and as we see all too often any online storage that's free or only comes with a one-off fee is usually getting revenue through ads or other means. I'd rather pay a monthly fee.

I think Adobe's practices are two-fold: a) prevent piracy of their apps, and b) they needed to add more value than just a basic app or people wouldn't subscribe.

I dislike associated online storage.. I'll handle my own storage, thank you.

 

[MacUser2525]

I dislike associated online storage.. I'll handle my own storage, thank you.

Indeed I did not buy all them hard drives for nothing. The three machines that contain them for triple backup well the result of never throwing away good hardware if it can be reused. All my old machines already bought and paid for still running strong. Not that they work hard anymore, only on once every week or two to backup the accumulation from that time.

 

[revmacian]

what's the difference between an app for which you pay $12 once and have to upgrade the next year when the OS changes and it stops working, vs the app you pay $1/mo for and it keeps working when OS 14 comes around?
to me, if you're paying $1/mo and decide after 3 mos it's no longer the app you want, you're out $3 instead of $12.

Some of us won't upgrade our computer until we're sure it won't break any of our apps. Let's be honest, most of us don't actually need to upgrade the computer every year. If the upgrade breaks an app, then I wait to see what the next upgrade brings. If that upgrade also beaks the app then I will talk to the developer about buying a new version of the app or research a different app.

The difference is that a subscription will definitely cost me money every month, but an upgrade probably won't.
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There is nothing stopping you from producing mini updates every quarter and charging an incremental upgrade fee (that would be equivalent to what you charge for a subscription for that same period). It's not about a steady income stream but about a captive audience.

I love this! It gives users the chance to decide what is needed.

Can I get by for a couple years with the current version of the app I purchased? I've been doing exactly that with most of my apps.

Can I keep the the current version of the app for a couple years if I cancel my subscription today? I highly doubt it.

 

[Conutz]

There is much to be said for spending less time in games and social media and more time in self-education.

👏 Probably one of the better comments I’ve read on this forum.

 

[uehithneu]

I've been blacklisting companies that do this type of thing. I'm the tech person in my family and circle of friends, so they all come to me when they need advice on which apps to buy.. and I am steering them clear of any company that does subscriptions pricing. And, you're absolutely right.. this practice is morally bankrupt.

Absolutely upgrade-in-place nonsense is reprehensible. And yet podcast pundits don't ever speak out. From the F3 fiasco I've become wary of numerous Mac media personalities. GoodNotes does it right. Upgrade bundle!

 

[Aika]

I am not opposed to subscriptions if done right, Fantastical 3 however was a masterclass in how to upset and alienate your existing customers. My views:

• Don't turn what people paid for into something that resembles unregistered shareware: Fantastical 3 kept nagging the user to register for a Flexibits account and to pay for a subscription to unlock features. This persisted for a few weeks before being changed.
• Price your subscription reasonably: Office 365 costs £60 a year and I am going to compare the value I get from that to any other app that attempts subscription pricing. £40 a year for Fantastical by comparison, is not good value for money.
• Offer a lifetime license for those who want it: Self-explanatory. Many apps that have gone the subscription route also offer this even if it's usually hidden away.
• Give existing customers something: Credit to them, existing customers seem to have been grandfathered into a feature set that is greater than the free version and it can still function as it did in version 2 with a few extras from version 3. This was poorly communicated however and for a few weeks this was not the case and I still can't use it on my Apple Watch because they want to force people over to their account system.

I have bought every version of Fantastical but they lost me with this switch to a subscription model.

 

[uehithneu]

• Price your subscription reasonably: Office 365 costs £60 a year and I am going to compare the value I get from that to any other app that attempts subscription pricing. £40 a year for Fantastical by comparison, is not good value for money.

This whole post is great. Here I'll focus on the second bullet point. F3 not good value for money **especially because it's mediocre**. F3 just like all other calendar apps--some of its features good, other features decent, other features underwhelming--but yet all those other apps have sensible pricing. Ridiculous that Flexibits expects perpetual payment when F3 definitely does not stand out. Users who say "I use it every day and so I'm happy to pay forever" are downright naïve.

Main idea, for the purpose of this thread: A lot of the critique about F3 would go away if only Flexibits had made use of upgrade bundle instead of forcing upgrade in place. Flexibits says upgrade in place serves the interest of F2 buyers but that's nonsense, an outright lie.

 

[NoBoMac]

existing [Fantastical] customers seem to have been grandfathered into a feature set that is greater than the free version and it can still function as it did in version 2 with a few extras from version 3.

To an extent. Existing customers lose the grandfathering once they delete the app, or say, get a new device and want to start with a clean slate (ie. no setup from old device or backup). Your new copy will be F3 with no old features active. Seems like they are looking at some value in a config file of theirs to see who was an F2 person.

Long story short, happened to me. My phone copy is stuck on the dumb version vs iPad still functional (but ok with it, as moved to different app on phone and done with F3 for good there).

 

[Aika]

This whole post is great. Here I'll focus on the second bullet point. F3 not good value for money **especially because it's mediocre**. F3 just like all other calendar apps--some of its features good, other features decent, other features underwhelming--but yet all those other apps have sensible pricing. Ridiculous that Flexibits expects perpetual payment when F3 definitely does not stand out. Users who say "I use it every day and so I'm happy to pay forever" are downright naïve.

Main idea, for the purpose of this thread: A lot of the critique about F3 would go away if only Flexibits had made use of upgrade bundle instead of forcing upgrade in place. Flexibits says upgrade in place serves the interest of F2 buyers but that's nonsense, an outright lie.

I wouldn't call it mediocre because I genuinely love Fantastical but I only love it enough to pay around £40 every 4 years. I don't love it enough to rent it for £40 a year.

I agree however that it doesn't stand out enough for that sort of pricing and that when you charge such a premium, you're going to be judged to a much higher standard which I don't feel it meets. It was frustrating to see so many "influencers" rush to defend it.

To an extent. Existing customers lose the grandfathering once they delete the app, or say, get a new device and want to start with a clean slate (ie. no setup from old device or backup). Your new copy will be F3 with no old features active. Seems like they are looking at some value in a config file of theirs to see who was an F2 person.

Long story short, happened to me. My phone copy is stuck on the dumb version vs iPad still functional (but ok with it, as moved to different app on phone and done with F3 for good there).

You're not missing much really. While the Mac version is finally unobtrusive with the premium upselling, the grandfathered iOS app is extremely obnoxious with it and makes no effort to hide it. I can't imagine how bad the free version is.

I'll keep using Fantastical for now but if BusyCal 4 comes out and it really knocks it out of the park, I'll be switching to that as the developer will never switch to subscriptions.

 

[MacUser2525]

It was frustrating to see so many "influencers" rush to defend it.

Before the newspeak treatment they were called shills, people who get paid to endorse a product, the word has a somewhat negative meaning to it.

Edit: And I still get rather gagged with the damn software update window I have to dismiss everyday from Pathfinder. It comes to focus every time you click on the program icon to access it when it has appeared, never another cent from me for the scumbags.

 

[uehithneu]

I'll keep using Fantastical for now but if BusyCal 4 comes out and it really knocks it out of the park, I'll be switching to that as the developer will never switch to subscriptions.

BusyCal for macOS is best in class. iOS app nothing to write home about. macOS app outstanding!

 

[Aika]

Before the newspeak treatment they were called shills, people who get paid to endorse a product, the word has a somewhat negative meaning to it.

I wouldn't call them shills (to my knowledge David Sparks is the only commentator who they pay), just desperately out of touch with their audience and far too friendly with the development community to ever make any reasonable criticism when it comes to these business practices. Even those writers and podcasters who aren't too close to the dev scene are going to be less likely to speak out because their colleagues are always defending these subscription models and even those who didn't outright defend Flexibits, were still hesitant to give them the panning they deserved.

The Fantastical thing has been a fantastic litmus test to see which commentators will never look at this objectively: it's the butterfly keyboard of the app world.

I mean £40 a year... for a calendar app... jesus.

BusyCal for macOS is best in class. iOS app nothing to write home about. macOS app outstanding!

Good to know, thank you. Hopefully, version 4 isn't too far away.

 

[russell_314]

I am not opposed to subscriptions if done right, Fantastical 3 however was a masterclass in how to upset and alienate your existing customers. My views:

• Don't turn what people paid for into something that resembles unregistered shareware: Fantastical 3 kept nagging the user to register for a Flexibits account and to pay for a subscription to unlock features. This persisted for a few weeks before being changed.
• Price your subscription reasonably: Office 365 costs £60 a year and I am going to compare the value I get from that to any other app that attempts subscription pricing. £40 a year for Fantastical by comparison, is not good value for money.
• Offer a lifetime license for those who want it: Self-explanatory. Many apps that have gone the subscription route also offer this even if it's usually hidden away.
• Give existing customers something: Credit to them, existing customers seem to have been grandfathered into a feature set that is greater than the free version and it can still function as it did in version 2 with a few extras from version 3. This was poorly communicated however and for a few weeks this was not the case and I still can't use it on my Apple Watch because they want to force people over to their account system.

I have bought every version of Fantastical but they lost me with this switch to a subscription model.

Some very good points. Some apps have a higher price to buy the app and I'm okay with that. Unless they're sending someone in a car to come pick me up for my appointments paying $40 a year to rent a calendar app is just nuts IMO. The only way I could see this making sense is if it was used as business software to manage a company schedule.
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I wouldn't call them shills (to my knowledge David Sparks is the only commentator who they pay), just desperately out of touch with their audience and far too friendly with the development community to ever make any reasonable criticism when it comes to these business practices. Even those writers and podcasters who aren't too close to the dev scene are going to be less likely to speak out because their colleagues are always defending these subscription models and even those who didn't outright defend Flexibits, were still hesitant to give them the panning they deserved.

The Fantastical thing has been a fantastic litmus test to see which commentators will never look at this objectively: it's the butterfly keyboard of the app world.

I mean £40 a year... for a calendar app... jesus.



Good to know, thank you. Hopefully, version 4 isn't too far away.

Podcasters are either getting a paid sponsorship or they're hoping to get one. You can't exactly criticize a big cash cow then expect it to pay up later.

 

[uehithneu]

The only way I could see this making sense is if it was used as business software to manage a company schedule.

That's why I say it's shady for influencers to condone the F3 nonsense. F3 may well be used by some--naïve--customers to manage a company schedule but it's not as if F3 best in class for business uses. CalenGoo, myCal, Readdle etc. no worse and those apps (all buyable not just rentable!) may well be better.

Podcasters are either getting a paid sponsorship or they're hoping to get one.

I contacted several influencers and I received replies from like three of 'em. Two persons turned the discussion towards developers' rights lol ("it's the developers' prerogative to price the app however they want"). By focusing on this strawman issue, media personalities absolutely do mislead their followers... I find it hard to believe so many users disilke F3 but yet each- and every influencer just happens to heap praise. I notice none of those reviews declares no conflict of interest, which leads me to believe influencers are in Flexibits's pocket somehow (e.g., influencers themselves not paying for F3 subscription)... Brett Terpstra's review a shining example. For those who don't know: Terpstra knowledgeable and Terpstra pays attention to detail. He's not wowed by 'fluffy' features and many time he's conducted deep critique. And so his F3 review, which heaps praise on fluffy stuff, sounds as if it's written by Flexibits writers not by Terpstra himself. I asked Terpstra, flat out, 'Your review is awfully uncritical. Do receive perks from Flexibits?' and he replied 'You're entitled to have your own opinion, man.' No comment about conflict of interest! https://brettterpstra.com/2020/02/06/fantastical-3/

 

[jeyf]

for the legacy applications, the original devopers have long gone.
new owners are flogging the dead horse

 

[uehithneu]

for the legacy applications, the original devopers have long gone.
new owners are flogging the dead horse

Example: WeekCal. https://www.weekcal.com Under original developers, app split by platform (iPhone version plus iPad version). And now, under new ownership, each platform has two versions (subscription version and 'buy once' version). Subscription version the newer version and so WeekCal an example of new developers doing flogging.

 

[TiggrToo]

That's why I say it's shady for influencers to condone the F3 nonsense. F3 may well be used by some--naïve--customers to manage a company schedule but it's not as if F3 best in class for business uses. CalenGoo, myCal, Readdle etc. no worse and those apps (all buyable not just rentable!) may well be better.

I've 30+ years in IT, worked around the world and currently a director in charge of a team of database developers. I paid for F3 after trialing it. You saying I'm naive? If so, that's pretty gosh darned insulting.

Listen, we all get you really hate Flexibits now. However calling other folk naive simply because they have chosen to move past the subscription debacle is rude.

I pay close to a grand a year in software costs, in cloud and both mobile and desktop applications. I choose where my dollar gets spent, not someone like you who seems to think they know more than I.

You don't like F3. That's perfectly fine - and understandable given the debacle of the rollout. But let's ease off on the veiled insults against the folks that haven't let that get in their way of making a business decision.

 

[Aika]

Podcasters are either getting a paid sponsorship or they're hoping to get one. You can't exactly criticize a big cash cow then expect it to pay up later.

I don't remember Flexibits sponsoring any podcasts.

TextExpander sponsors Relay FM a bunch however and that was the app that kicked off the subscription craze.

Regardless, I still don't think there's a conspiracy here, it's just that these influencers are very friendly with the development scene and they are on their side, not on the consumer's. It's well known now just how divisive subscription models are and that many people can't afford to have yet another monthly/yearly outgoing expense on top of their rent/mortgage, utilities, phone bill etc. as well as the resulting anxiety it causes. People like being able to budget for the up-front cost of a premium app and feeling like they own it, rather than it being a rental. Flexibits went ahead anyway and of course, glowing reviews of the beta version they'd given to MacStories, 6colors and the like went up the moment the news dropped to give a positive spin on the subscription controversy.

Since then, "influencers" have vehemently defended this business model and shrugged their shoulders at of those who can't or won't buy in despite us being in the majority. As this pandemic has shown, employment for many of us is very precarious: we can't earn a living blogging and podcasting about the Mac from our home thus the idea of spending £40 a year on a calendar app is utterly risible.

 

[russell_314]

I've 30+ years in IT, worked around the world and currently a director in charge of a team of database developers. I paid for F3 after trialing it. You saying I'm naive? If so, that's pretty gosh darned insulting.

Listen, we all get you really hate Flexibits now. However calling other folk naive simply because they have chosen to move past the subscription debacle is rude.

I pay close to a grand a year in software costs, in cloud and both mobile and desktop applications. I choose where my dollar gets spent, not someone like you who seems to think they know more than I.

You don't like F3. That's perfectly fine - and understandable given the debacle of the rollout. But let's ease off on the veiled insults against the folks that haven't let that get in their way of making a business decision.

I don't think it's fair to ciritzie someone on how they spend their money. For me it's absolutly a no go to pay a subscription for something I can get without one but that's just me. Some people have enough money so they don't care or perhaps they just want to show how much they don't care. That's their right! There was an iOS app that just had some slogan saying how rich the person was and didn't do anything and it was 10k. If people want to buy it with their money it's their right.
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I don't remember Flexibits sponsoring any podcasts.

TextExpander sponsors Relay FM a bunch however and that was the app that kicked off the subscription craze.

Regardless, I still don't think there's a conspiracy here, it's just that these influencers are very friendly with the development scene and they are on their side, not on the consumer's. It's well known now just how divisive subscription models are and that many people can't afford to have yet another monthly/yearly outgoing expense on top of their rent/mortgage, utilities, phone bill etc. as well as the resulting anxiety it causes. People like being able to budget for the up-front cost of a premium app and feeling like they own it, rather than it being a rental. Flexibits went ahead anyway and of course, glowing reviews of the beta version they'd given to MacStories, 6colors and the like went up the moment the news dropped to give a positive spin on the subscription controversy.

Since then, "influencers" have vehemently defended this business model and shrugged their shoulders at of those who can't or won't buy in despite us being in the majority. As this pandemic has shown, employment for many of us is very precarious: we can't earn a living blogging and podcasting about the Mac from our home thus the idea of spending £40 a year on a calendar app is utterly risible.

I don't think it's a conspiracy but you don't attack a potential source of income. You will see most podcasters are careful not to overly criticize any product. Of course there are exceptions but as a general rule

 

[uehithneu]

the idea of spending £40 a year on a calendar app is utterly risible

In this case it's not an app but rather a subscription. I for one would be happy to pay £40, each year, to buy a calendar app. I wouldn't pay even £4 to rent one though. Some might say that's naïve.

 

[uehithneu]

Flexibits went ahead anyway and of course, glowing reviews of the beta version they'd given to MacStories, 6colors and the like went up the moment the news dropped to give a positive spin on the subscription controversy.

Yup. App Store reviews, though, definitely not glowing. App Store reviews speak critically about featureset, functionality, roll-out, stability, privacy. All those hundreds? thousands? of recent reviewers must have a singular nefarious agendum lol.

 

[TiggrToo]

In this case it's not an app but rather a subscription. I for one would be happy to pay £40, each year, to buy a calendar app. I wouldn't pay even £4 to rent one though. Some might say that's naïve.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Flexibits totally messed up the F3 release big time. As a result they were inundated with support requests and their ratings took a possibly well deserved dive. It's almost as if they took the "Guide to successfully recreating your income stream" and totally ignored it.

I'm also not happy that existing users are expected to pay the same subscription amount as brand new users, even though we're essentially getting less bang for our buck.

That said, I still ended up subscribing because the feature set, for me, was absolutely worth it. Well, will be again when I get back to work in the office (the location based calendar switching was one the biggest draws).

It all comes down to choice. I chose to not let their abysmal rollout disuade me from the purchase.

You decided to punish them by taking your business away from them, and I fully support your right to do that. In addition I do not think that you're naive in the slightest. You did and continue to do what you feel is the right thing to do, so kudos to you for doing it.

There is no right nor wrong in what either of us did. We both took courses of action that were right for us.