Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[JT2002TJ]

It doesn't matter what any of those measurements say, you seem to be missing that point both on the Model S and 3. It just doesn't compete in the classes that you think it does. The Tesla's are just not that kind of vehicle. And what does measurements also not show is the comfort of the seating position. You could add a Toyota Camry as well and that has even more space than a TM3, but like the TM3 it just doesn't compete in that class. And if you use the same link as you did with a 3 series you see the 3 actually has more room in the back than the TM3 as well according to the stats. So it really is measurement and comparison that means nothing.

I get that you like your Tesla, no problem with that at all. But it is not a luxury class vehicle. And before you do a comparison, neither is my Polestar but I don't claim for it to be in such a class.

Again, I am only talking about size. I am not saying Model 3 is on par with luxury with 5 series/A6/E class. you are changing the goal posts again.

Class is SIZE not luxury. It is an actual definition. That is where you are mixing this up.

I never brought up luxury... Only size of vehicles.

Model S by overall size for how fascinating it goes around the track.

The 3 because of the size I was not getting in my 3 series, or my A4. This is why I was posting pictures of ROOM... Then I was told, it was the same size as an 3 series/A4/C class. I said no way, and then demonstrated by showing distance between front seat and back seat...

Vehicle size class - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Vref]

Class is also interesting to compare by weight, that S tip the scales like a truck

 

[JT2002TJ]

Class is also interesting to compare by weight, that S tip the scales like a truck

Yes, and it still can make it around a track quite quickly...

 

[Vref]

Yes, and it still can make it around a track quite quickly...

It goes in a straight line quite quick

Stopping and corners no so much lol
Size wise compared to a Cadillac V it’s a boat

 

[mittencuh]

Lap times are so irrelevant to 99.9% of the population. And instant torque is a characteristic of any electric, not just a Tesla. Heck, the i3, which most of the press panned as a non-starter, feels like quite a quick vehicle in day to day traffic, at least to me.

In my own environment living at 6,600 feet above sea level, the most exciting part of an electric vehicle is no power loss at altitude.

In my own backroad driving, a few weeks ago I came across a Model Y driver also out having a bit of fun. Of course he pulled quite far ahead of me in every bit of straighter road, but I could easily brake later and carry more speed through the twisties and caught up to him every time. No idea who the driver was, massive respect for him though in the way he managed and was aware of the Model Y's weight and capabilities. Plenty of people purchase powerful vehicles with no idea how to handle them.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Lap times are so irrelevant to 99.9% of the population. And instant torque is a characteristic of any electric, not just a Tesla. Heck, the i3, which most of the press panned as a non-starter, feels like quite a quick vehicle in day to day traffic, at least to me.

In my own environment living at 6,600 feet above sea level, the most exciting part of an electric vehicle is no power loss at altitude.

In my own backroad driving, a few weeks ago I came across a Model Y driver also out having a bit of fun. Of course he pulled quite far ahead of me in every bit of straighter road, but I could easily brake later and carry more speed through the twisties and caught up to him every time. No idea who the driver was, massive respect for him though in the way he managed and was aware of the Model Y's weight and capabilities. Plenty of people purchase powerful vehicles with no idea how to handle them.

I love my i3. It’s a great little car. Designed to make the interior feel much bigger than cars that are much larger.
Cutting edge, light weight and ahead of its time. Still makes me smile when I see another one on the road.

 

[Vref]

Lap times are so irrelevant to 99.9% of the population. And instant torque is a characteristic of any electric, not just a Tesla. Heck, the i3, which most of the press panned as a non-starter, feels like quite a quick vehicle in day to day traffic, at least to me.

In my own environment living at 6,600 feet above sea level, the most exciting part of an electric vehicle is no power loss at altitude.

In my own backroad driving, a few weeks ago I came across a Model Y driver also out having a bit of fun. Of course he pulled quite far ahead of me in every bit of straighter road, but I could easily brake later and carry more speed through the twisties and caught up to him every time. No idea who the driver was, massive respect for him though in the way he managed and was aware of the Model Y's weight and capabilities. Plenty of people purchase powerful vehicles with no idea how to handle them.

I wouldn’t say 99.9%, car people like a drivers car, and at the massive price points and having to live your life around the car (chargers for those who don’t live in 15min cities), you’re approaching car person demographics and if you’re into cars and are like me where tires last like 2yrs, throwing a boat like a EV around corners just isn’t as fun as a Caddy V or a M5 or something (if you want a 4 door car)

 

[mittencuh]

I love my i3. It’s a great little car. Designed to make the interior feel much bigger than cars that are much larger.
Cutting edge, light weight and ahead of its time. Still makes me smile when I see another one on the road.

I like the i3 quite a lot as well! It was the first electric vehicle I ever drove and I thought the space efficiency is fantastic. I don't understand why it was overall poorly received.

I wouldn’t say 99.9%, car people like a drivers car, and at the massive price points and having to live your life around the car (chargers for those who don’t live in 15min cities), you’re approaching car person demographics and if you’re into cars and are like me where tires last like 2yrs, throwing a boat like a EV around corners just isn’t as fun as a Caddy V or a M5 or something (if you want a 4 door car)

I'm a huge car enthusiast as well, but lap times aren't even on my radar. I agree with you in terms of handling. But often the best handling cars aren't the fastest around a track. And yes, my own car the first thing I did was wider and stickier tires

 

[JT2002TJ]

I like the i3 quite a lot as well! It was the first electric vehicle I ever drove and I thought the space efficiency is fantastic. I don't understand why it was overall poorly received.

Range, and size... You are asking people to spend a LOT of money for a little car... You can get a Tesla Model 3 for the same price, and have 2 times the range of the REX model, and be able to comfortably fit 5.

EDIT: US prices...

 

[Vref]

Range, and size... You are asking people to spend a LOT of money for a little car... You can get a Tesla Model 3 for the same price, and have 2 times the range of the REX model, and be able to comfortably fit 5.

EDIT: US prices...

Best car is small car with big engine

 

[mittencuh]

Range, and size... You are asking people to spend a LOT of money for a little car... You can get a Tesla Model 3 for the same price, and have 2 times the range of the REX model, and be able to comfortably fit 5.

EDIT: US prices...

The i3 pre-dated the Model 3 by 4 years. However, yes, MSRP vs MSRP, the i3 was not as competitive... at the time (and the only reason I was able to even consider one) was due to the huge incentives BMW offered.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Range, and size... You are asking people to spend a LOT of money for a little car... You can get a Tesla Model 3 for the same price, and have 2 times the range of the REX model, and be able to comfortably fit 5.

EDIT: US prices...

Yes but I’d rather drive a BMW than a Tesla.
The price point was why the i3 struggled. But the carbon fibre life pod isn’t cheap. But it’s nice to know I have the same technology protecting me as Lewis Hamilton.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Again, I am only talking about size. I am not saying Model 3 is on par with luxury with 5 series/A6/E class. you are changing the goal posts again.

Class is SIZE not luxury. It is an actual definition. That is where you are mixing this up.

I never brought up luxury... Only size of vehicles.

Model S by overall size for how fascinating it goes around the track.

The 3 because of the size I was not getting in my 3 series, or my A4. This is why I was posting pictures of ROOM... Then I was told, it was the same size as an 3 series/A4/C class. I said no way, and then demonstrated by showing distance between front seat and back seat...

Vehicle size class - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Use your own link and you see that the 3 series exceed the interior sizes of the TM3. So I really don't understand why you insist to link it to a category above, even when you compare just on size. But as I said a Toyota Camry is also larger, doesn't make it fit that class either.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Use your own link and you see that the 3 series exceed the interior sizes of the TM3. So I really don't understand why you insist to link it to a category above, even when you compare just on size. But as I said a Toyota Camry is also larger, doesn't make it fit that class either.

What link. The link I posted was of the 5-Series vs M3 vs A6, they are all in the same interior size range, with the M3 having more room in some and less room in others... Clearly agrees with what I have been saying all along about the interior size of the M3 being more in line with the mid-sized BMW/Audi/MB rather than their smaller 3 series/A4/C class.

Now, the site could be posting false numbers, but from my real feel when car shopping 2 months ago, the numbers feel true to me.

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I have no argument about the height of the floor, other than I didn't notice it. All I know is, I cannot even get in the back of a 3 series/A4/C-Class when I put the front seat where I sit. I can with the M3 just like I can with the 5 series, A6 and E-Class.

Again, I was not addressing luxury, I am and always was addressing the size, and WHY I opted for the M3 over other EV's or other ICE's in the price range of the M3. I could have only bought a 3-series/A4/C-Class with the amount I spent on the M3, which was not big enough for my needs.

Although after owning the M3 for a few months, I'm not really missing any luxury features that I am aware of, maybe cooled seats? I have everything I can think of including Sentry mode, multi-camera dashcam, remote preconditioning, plus the benefit of FSD Beta. My 3 series, A4 both have plastic parts everywhere, with wood trim (no real difference with the M3).

 

[Tagbert]

This is still the case. I believe Tesla doesn't want to pay the license fee for Apple's CarPlay. The M3/MY also do not have Sirius XM. The MS/MX I believe either used to or still do have a module.

I agree it is a HUGE flaw, BUT, after having the car for 2 months, I have adapted. I run Waze on my phone and have it connected via Bluetooth, so I get the notifications, I also play SXM via my phone. Playing SXM via my phone saves me money too, but you do have to interact with the phone to select channels...

I will say that Tesla's maps run better than anything interfaced though CarPlay that I have experienced yet. The ability to quickly pinch to zoom, without losing the rendering, and overlay satellite view without slowing down is amazing. I'm still not sure if I like Waze's routing better than Telsa's because I haven't gone on any trips out of my "comfort zone" yet.

Also, if you use FSD, the car is going to use the car's maps anyways, I'm not sure there is a way for manufacturers to use the phone's maps for controlling the vehicle. I use Autopilot/FSD Beta 90%+ of my driving. It works really well in the NY/Long Island area.

Text messages are read to you and send messages via Tesla's software, you can also read any current messages that come in. So, they have created an adequate workaround to keep you in their UI.

Apple does not charge a license fee for CarPlay. That was an excuse that BMW gave for why they put the feature behind a subscription fee but it later came out that they were lying. It’s just Tesla arrogance expecting that their offering will give you everything you need. Regardless if you want those needs served in a different way.

 

[diamond.g]

Apple does not charge a license fee for CarPlay. That was an excuse that BMW gave for why they put the feature behind a subscription fee but it later came out that they were lying. It’s just Tesla arrogance expecting that their offering will give you everything you need. Regardless if you want those needs served in a different way.

Doesn't CarPlay still require integration with the base vehicle?

 

[Tagbert]

Doesn't CarPlay still require integration with the base vehicle?

It does require that. The manufacturer has to implement a process to receive the Airplay screen (which is a video stream) and display it on their screen. Then they need to send back tap events. It’s not a complex integration. All the heavy lifting happens on the phone. It’s basically a remote terminal arrangement. Yes, that is work that the manufacturer must do and most do because the recognize that a large part of their customer want that regardless of which servers the car provides on its own.

Your car provides maps? Great. Maybe I’ll use those sometimes and sometimes I’ll use that is connected to my contact list or the website I was browsing.

You car now offers Apple Music playback? Great. Does it also include ITunes Match musing or just streaming music? I have what I need on my phone, I’m not looking for a new relationship.

Does you car offer Overcast for podcasts? That is what I’m mainly using on the car. No?, then that makes all my podcasts harder to play and not I’m not interested in switching your chosen podcast player.

That’s not the only CarPlay app I use and a car manufacturer can’t keep up and will alway fail to deliver.

The point is that your phone is very personal and has all your stuff. I’d rather not shift my stuff around to your place for no good reason. Giving me this small personalization on your car’s interface is a feature, not something you have to block.

 

[diamond.g]

It does require that. The manufacturer has to implement a process to receive the Airplay screen (which is a video stream) and display it on their screen. Then they need to send back tap events. It’s not a complex integration. All the heavy lifting happens on the phone. It’s basically a remote terminal arrangement. Yes, that is work that the manufacturer must do and most do because the recognize that a large part of their customer want that regardless of which servers the car provides on its own.

Your car provides maps? Great. Maybe I’ll use those sometimes and sometimes I’ll use that is connected to my contact list or the website I was browsing.

You car now offers Apple Music playback? Great. Does it also include ITunes Match musing or just streaming music? I have what I need on my phone, I’m not looking for a new relationship.

Does you car offer Overcast for podcasts? That is what I’m mainly using on the car. No?, then that makes all my podcasts harder to play and not I’m not interested in switching your chosen podcast player.

That’s not the only CarPlay app I use and a car manufacturer can’t keep up and will alway fail to deliver.

The point is that your phone is very personal and has all your stuff. I’d rather not shift my stuff around to your place for no good reason. Giving me this small personalization on your car’s interface is a feature, not something you have to block.

I see your point, I guess I am just used to what I have and the level of integration it comes with.

Does Apple offer a way to invoke battery preconditioning for fast charging? My other is when/how would Apple integrate the advanced level 2 features that some vehicles come with.

I guess both of those are mapping issues more so than alternate music/podcast apps.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Apple does not charge a license fee for CarPlay. That was an excuse that BMW gave for why they put the feature behind a subscription fee but it later came out that they were lying.

That scam BMW pulled became difficult to justify as Ford and Vauxhall/Opel started putting Apple CarPlay into cars as standard. A £85 a year fee was just ridiculous and they rather quickly revoked it I seem to remember.

 

[Apple fanboy]

That scam BMW pulled became difficult to justify as Ford and Vauxhall/Opel started putting Apple CarPlay into cars as standard. A £85 a year fee was just ridiculous and they rather quickly revoked it I seem to remember.

They did. It would have put me off buying one if they hadn’t.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Apple does not charge a license fee for CarPlay. That was an excuse that BMW gave for why they put the feature behind a subscription fee but it later came out that they were lying. It’s just Tesla arrogance expecting that their offering will give you everything you need. Regardless if you want those needs served in a different way.

Good to know.

The problem with using Carplay with Telsa's ecosystem is that Tesla's maps are fundamentally part of the vehicle. For example, with my Full Self Driving Beta's Navigation where it actually routes the vehicle, on city streets, and exits on the highway, how would a seamless integration work with both Carplay Maps and Tesla's Maps? My M3 will take the exit off of my highway and drive me all the way to right in front of my house.

Since we do not have a cluster in the M3/MY there really isn't real estate on the screen to give up even a portion of the screen for CarPlay.

 

[mittencuh]

Good to know.

The problem with using Carplay with Telsa's ecosystem is that Tesla's maps are fundamentally part of the vehicle. For example, with my Full Self Driving Beta's Navigation where it actually routes the vehicle, on city streets, and exits on the highway, how would a seamless integration work with both Carplay Maps and Tesla's Maps? My M3 will take the exit off of my highway and drive me all the way to right in front of my house.

Since we do not have a cluster in the M3/MY there really isn't real estate on the screen to give up even a portion of the screen for CarPlay.

You don’t have to have navigation on the screen for “Full Self Driving” to work, so why can’t it just run in the background. I’ve often used BMW’s navigation system while having CarPlay active so the navigation directions would show up in the instrument cluster.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I see your point, I guess I am just used to what I have and the level of integration it comes with.

Does Apple offer a way to invoke battery preconditioning for fast charging? My other is when/how would Apple integrate the advanced level 2 features that some vehicles come with.

I guess both of those are mapping issues more so than alternate music/podcast apps.

Exactly. I love using all my Apple stuff, as do my wife and children. But I'm actually very happy with how the Google Android Automotive Operating System operates and integrates within the car. The integration with battery conditioning, range available, impact of routes chosen, multi screen continuinity etc has made me for the first time in a long time not use Apple Carplay. Yes it is available for Google AAOS based cars, funnily enough not Android Auto but to me there is no point.

Now saying that, Apple is aware, and Apple is updating and opening up the system for much tighter integration. I forgot which car they've done that for, but it is being done. Including multi-display support, hvac etc. So this space could become very interesting, but not yet in my opinion.

I can see and understand why Tesla made the design decision they did as at the time it was basically all pretty rubbish, and theirs was a game changer. But now, the closed system with no developer program will hold them back.

 

[diamond.g]

You don’t have to have navigation on the screen for “Full Self Driving” to work, so why can’t it just run in the background. I’ve often used BMW’s navigation system while having CarPlay active so the navigation directions would show up in the instrument cluster.

You can set a destination and have other stuff open over top of the map, the car shunts the next turn over onto the "vehicle status" side of the screen. Enabling City Streets (what I usually mean by FSD) without a destination entered can be a very fun experience....

 

[Tagbert]

Exactly. I love using all my Apple stuff, as do my wife and children. But I'm actually very happy with how the Google Android Automotive Operating System operates and integrates within the car. The integration with battery conditioning, range available, impact of routes chosen, multi screen continuinity etc has made me for the first time in a long time not use Apple Carplay. Yes it is available for Google AAOS based cars, funnily enough not Android Auto but to me there is no point.

Now saying that, Apple is aware, and Apple is updating and opening up the system for much tighter integration. I forgot which car they've done that for, but it is being done. Including multi-display support, hvac etc. So this space could become very interesting, but not yet in my opinion.

I can see and understand why Tesla made the design decision they did as at the time it was basically all pretty rubbish, and theirs was a game changer. But now, the closed system with no developer program will hold them back.

Apple has announced those kinds of charging and routing capabilities in CarPlay but the car manufacturer has to connect it to their internal APIs to provide the vehicle data. I believe that BMW added that to at least one of their vehicles. Not sure if any others have followed suit. This is different than the more expanded Car Play with multi-screen integration that they were showing off last year.