FSD is fine. But when you get a flat tyre and need to turn off the motorway an indicator stall is great.
Just a cost cutting exercise where the design makes about as much sense as a Magic Mouse charging port.
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Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk
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Just a cost cutting exercise where the design makes about as much sense as a Magic Mouse charging port.
Are you talking about using hazards? If so, I believe there is a physical button separate from the steering wheel, just like in the original TM3/Y design. Mine is above the rear view mirror (where the highland’s backup gear selector is).
I agree that an indicator stalk is easier to use. There are a lot of S/X owners and new highland owners that claim that they quickly forget about the lack of a stalk.
I’ve only driven a MX as a loaner for a few hours. I didn’t miss the stalk, but I also don’t drive in any roundabouts.
With the TM3/Y even with the stalk, I have learned to put it on earlier to have access to the blind spot cameras (it pops up on the main screen when on). This minimizes the need to interact with the stalks during intersections and on ramps. I do understand that in a roundabout you need to hit the button during the turn, but if you are hitting the button while maintaining the turn in the roundabout at least you don’t have to change direction at the same time so the wheel is not moving much. The indicator buttons will become muscle memory even while the wheel is upside down.
Nope. If you need to pull off you use an indicator not hazards. My point is using FSD isn’t always going to work. You still need to pull off or change your destination suddenly (like an unscheduled bathroom break).
On a roundabout you need to use the indicator twice. Turn right to go round, turn left to exit. Except when you turn left the wheel is now upside down. I posted a video explaining it a few pages back.
Downright dangerous.
??? Why would you not be able to turn the signals one when leaving the motorway? It’s not like it is a sharp turn at those speeds, your hands are on the wheel. It’s easy?
Same as on a roundabout. When would one be on full lock such that the buttons are in the wrong place and only then think of indicating? Especially so with modern cars that have advanced progressive steering. Many don’t need full lock anyway anymore.
I think a few are overthinking this based on their own vehicles and experience without actually having tried it.
I use my indicator stalk far less than with any other vehicle I’ve owned. The reason why is that Tesla implemented auto canceling. It actually works, not just when you make a turn beyond as certain amount with the wheel that then forces a cancellation upon return. Tesla’s implementation uses its lane awareness and camera monitoring to decide when it should cancel. It actually works very very well.
So, right off the bat, indicator stalk/button interaction is almost reduced by 50 percent (arguably more, because I change lanes far more than I make turns).
Now, when you are describing using your indicator to exit the motorway (or pull over), the steering wheel will be mostly be at the 12 o’clock position. So this is a non issue.
When you talk about needing to interact with the indicator twice with a roundabout, I gave you an example where you only need to interact once IN the roundabout where the wheel isn’t close to 12 o’clock. Th solution is to turn on the indicator BEFORE you enter the roundabout. I agree that when you are in the roundabout, it isn’t ideal to need to press an indicator button to exit when the steering wheel is closer to 3 o’clock or 9 o’clock. But to be fair, the wheel will not be upside down, it will at most be at 3 or 9 o’clock. So it is more difficult, but not as bad as if the wheel was upside down.
I agree that people are overreacting. It‘s the same complaints that they need physical buttons, just because they always had them…. They fail to understand that if you set a button, then leave it there, what’s the point in having it?
Enter arguments about different settings between drivers. Yup, Tesla thought about that with cloud based driver’s profiles. Any Tesla I am given access to in the app (including loaners) my profile appears and all my settings are just there. This includes the cabin temperature, mirrors, seats, GPS frequent locations, and vehicle drive settings. I get in, and the climate control is set to 68°F and I haven’t changed this since I got the car…. My wife has her settings, I have mine. When I get in her 3 my setting show up, when she drives my Y her settings show up. No need to fiddle at all, just get in and drive off.
If you let Tesla access your calendar, and you actually use it, event addresses are automatically set as your destination. So again, I don’t even have to type in addresses. We enter everything in our calendars…
If Tesla didn’t do such a wonderful job of managing everything for you, yes, they would be right. But in reality, it is a nonissue because of how well the Tesla OS is executed.
Because of this, I have no doubt that the wiper stalk removal would be a short term issue, once you get used to it, you won’t even think about it again…
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You are all in with Tesla. I’ll never own one. Too many design flaws to make my short list when choosing a car. Heck too many design flaws to make my very long list.
I forgot to add mid November to early March I run snow tires, which are less efficient.
Yeah it’s not thought out very well for roundabout use and have seen reviewers demonstrating how cumbersome and distracting it is trying to signal left on a roundabout. If they had to attach the indicators to the rotating steering wheel, it would have been better to have them as paddles, not a small button on one side of the wheel only where you’ve got to look for it during a turn. Hopefully Tesla listen to the feedback on this one going forward. It looks like a good car other than that. It’s probably less of an issue in the States but definitely an issue here in Europe.
Yep. You make your list and see where everything lands. I personally don’t see any design flaws in my TM3 LR.
I do see trade-offs as to the design decisions made however - such as minimalist interior, only use double panes glass in the front, no USS..,stuff like that. Stuff I can live with.
And that is for all us, they are just trade-offs whether we like them or not. Very subjective and very personal.
For example, I really dislike small cars; don't like rubbing shoulders when wearing a coat, find the ride uncomfortable with the short wheelbase on longer journeys, and rarely they provide the luxury options I want from a car. Or when they do, it is actually what I would call a paper spec tick box and nothing like the proper thing. But others love them, and don't like bigger cars.
I really disliked earlier iterations of Tesla's, thought they were terribly built, not refined enough, the tech was there but at the same time it wasn't quite there. And whilst pricing was for the luxury segment, they didn't understand nor portrait luxury; a bit like a Toyota/Honda/Kia/Hyundai with a (vegan) leather interior and all the options of the spec sheet, but somehow it just doesn't work or feel luxurious.
However, I gladly eat humble pie. I can see what they are doing now, the refinements in the TM3 Highland may on paper not be earth-shattering, but they are addressing exactly those little touches to be a player. Built quality is as good as sorted, the vision is really coming together with the software and the car. The refinement in ride and experience within it is pretty outstanding. It does have laminated double panes glass all around now. And at the same time, the EV tech isn't forgotten. But it is easily overlooked, as they also don't follow the typical model-year changes for changes. For example, the European TMY quietly received a lot of the Highland upgrades, apparently. But sadly not the redesign of headlights.
Ultimately, it's all trade-offs. My wife's Polestar was our first step into EVs, we really like it. However, even that was a trade-off as Audi couldn't deliver, and I could have this within 6 weeks. I consider we got lucky with that experience as at the time, and still today it is one of the best options and experiences around unless one needs the Tesla supercharger network.
We like EV so much that I want to change our main family car, full size Range Rover, to one. Partially due to need as we are remigrating and a RHD isn't convenient, and partially because I've had it for 4 years
But no EV option is available, and I'm not really digging the alternatives Mercedes EQS SUV (just doesn't look right), Porsche Taycan (too low down and wide for the Eurotunnel/Ferries I take). Polestar 3 is obvious as we like the 2, but nope it is a stupid design in my opinion, our dog wouldn't fit in the boot, too much leg room for passenger in the rear, and whilst expensive, the finish is too cheap for that segment.So I'm just getting something temporary, I require some space, I'm doing countless trips, every two weeks in one country, and then two weeks in the other, and drive across two other countries to get there. So I'm thinking efficiency and ease of use, and a relatively cheap in between car. A trade-off; my front-runners are TMY although a little small, or the TMX, but I would want a plaid, but that has the stupid 6 seat arrangement without arm rests. Therefore, more tradeoffs coming in
I agree it is an issue.
Every reviewer I’ve watched that actually had a highland for more than a short 1-2 day test drive pointed out the issue, but walked away still saying it is the best EV all around. So, even to them, the full package trumps the inconvenience of the steering wheel buttons. This is with European/British reviewer (since highland isn’t available here yet)
Remember, the TMS/X have always been steering wheel mounted buttons, even with the full steering wheel versions. So, this isn’t new to Tesla.
I can tell you my 2019 TM3 and 2021 TMY have as good build quality as any other vehicle I’ve owned. I bought them both used from Tesla, sight unseen. There were the usual 2nd hand issues, that I pointed out while taking delivery, all resolved by Tesla. Tesla even installed the garage opener module in my TMY for free because they took longer than expected during delivery. I asked them to install it, and I’d pay, before we left, the manager came over and said “sorry for the wait, for your time we are taking care of the module, oh and here is a mobile charger packet”. If I didn’t already have the TM3, this was enough to say we would be a fully Tesla household…
Maybe I’m lucky, or maybe those who have issues are the loudest voices…
It’s the same with all cars, none of us ever buy a car without at least one trade off and I don’t believe people who never constructively talk about their car and portray everything as perfect. On the Audi groups there are complaints about silly faults on the Q4, there are things about it I don’t like, but I like enough of the car overall, that’s life.
The model 3 highland is the first Tesla I have seen where I’d consider it as a second car. I know it’s rather bland from a styling perspective, but the software and support network, along with build quality and ride improvements make it a more attractive buy this time around. The indicator buttons are a crap idea, but it wouldn’t put me off I don’t think, I can always dodge a left signal if it’s difficult. The buttons have long been complained about on the X and S too and appreciate it’s not something new to the 3.
This is true. There is always compromise when buying anything.
Things I don’t like about my i3.
- The price. It was more than I really wanted to spend.
- The Frunk is not sealed. Not a great design (fixed with a bag I bought).
- The boot is a little smaller than I’d like. Especially when you consider you have the charging cable in there most of the time. But not an issue for 95% of my journeys.
- The wireless phone holder/charger is not large enough to accommodate a plus size phone.
- I’d love the ability for it to find you chargers and to handoff with the charger like Tesla’s do.
I have my don’t likes with Tesla too.
1. SiriusXM module should be standard, or an option.
2. There needs to be an app store
3. Waze crowdsourcing should be implemented into Tesla’s maps (rather than a Waze app).
4. The Frunk should be powered like the trunk (on all models)
5. They need to fix the design flaw that allows water into the cabin filter
6. Retrofit kits should be available for all new features (within reason, as long a wiring works). They have rolled these out, I added the power trunk to my TM3 and have an appointment to add Biodefence to my TMY. I would like to ad matrix headlights (it’s been done).
Most of my issues are software related, that can and slowly has been deployed. I’m happy with my wipers, auto high beam, they weren’t as good a couple months ago, but have really improved with OS updates.
1. SiriusXM module should be standard, or an option.
2. There needs to be an app store
3. Waze crowdsourcing should be implemented into Tesla’s maps (rather than a Waze app).
4. The Frunk should be powered like the trunk (on all models)
5. They need to fix the design flaw that allows water into the cabin filter
6. Retrofit kits should be available for all new features (within reason, as long a wiring works). They have rolled these out, I added the power trunk to my TM3 and have an appointment to add Biodefence to my TMY. I would like to ad matrix headlights (it’s been done).
Most of my issues are software related, that can and slowly has been deployed. I’m happy with my wipers, auto high beam, they weren’t as good a couple months ago, but have really improved with OS updates.
This^^^^. However the conspiracist in me thinks SXM doesn’t want it as an internet subscription is a few bucks a month, but the satellite subscription is about $15/20 month. SXM doesn’t want to pillage their satellite subscriptions.
There’s an app store of sorts in china for Tesla vehicles. It may be coming our way.
Tesla’s version of Waze crowd sourcing is coming. In my nav display I am now seeing stop lights and stop signs. The rumor mill is that teslas cameras across its millions of vehicles will crowd source hazards, cops, speed traps.
I agree with the remainder of list above.
Yup to your comments.
I retrofitted SXM in my TMY (Model S Plaid module swapped with my radio module), and may do it to my wife's TM3 (a little more involved as you have to swap module internals as the 3 has a unique module case). I have 2 lifetime accounts (which both come with lifetime streaming) sonI have nothing to lose. This works with the older intel based TM3/Y
I like the concept of Tesla’s internal crowdsourcing, it would be nice in addition to connecting to Waze. Waze will always have more users as they are not limited by vehicle brand. But, I’m intrigued by what you said…
I am torn by an App Store. I want Tesla to have full control, I don’t want it to cause issues with the vehicle like making the OS run slow, or end up losing access to Netflix/Hulu/Disney+ because I don’t have the latest vehicle. Right now they work with all Tesla’s.
I definitely think so. There is a model S with over a million miles, so it seems to bear this out. (it has replaced its battery and motors a few times, but this is still next level compared to ICEs and its an early S, the newer ones are built much better)
A new ICE automobile has similar electrical components as an EV (other than traction motors and things like that). For example, a hybrid automobile such as a Prius, and even the F1 hybrid automobile incorporate motors and internal combustion engines. In a regular ICE automobile, electrical components tend to fail sooner than the engine and other mechanical components. One can have any vehicle, regardless of which powertrain type that can have thousands of drive miles. Then very old automobiles can be found in the collectors car market that have been driven very little. The average life span of the 12 DVC battery is about 4 years, but the warranty is about 2 years/36,000 miles. The battery in my wife's 2010 RAV4 V6 lasted a little over ten years. I replaced it last month, and was told that instead of the former 5-year NAPA warranty, now it is two years
While an ICE automobile has an engine and transmission that contain lots of moving parts, EV's also have lots of moving parts which are the same as ICE automobiles: brake components such as rotors, pads, wheel bearings, steering linkages, drive units, wiper and door servos or motors, AC/Heat blower motors, and some have wiper motors at the headlights, or headlights that follow the direction of steering during night-driving. Some EV battery-temperature management systems include electric pumps. The drive units have driveshafts connected to the wheels (same as ICE automobiles). The drive unit has several moving parts, bearings, and reduction gears. Some drive units use oils to lubricate and cool the internal parts (similar to aromatic transmission). The most difficult and expensive component in an EV is its battery. The average high-capacity EV battery has a few thousand cells, and each cell in a module is connected to each other with a metallic link (conductor) at both the positive and negative ends of each cell.
Electric-Vehicle Battery Basics
Electric-car batteries are similar to, but far from the same as, a basic AA or AAA battery.
There are numerous videos of EV drive units at "youtube."
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There are far fewer moving parts on an EV than an ICE vehicle though.A new ICE automobile has similar electrical components as an EV (other than traction motors and things like that). For example, a hybrid automobile such as a Prius, and even the F1 hybrid automobile incorporate motors and internal combustion engines. In a regular ICE automobile, electrical components tend to fail sooner than the engine and other mechanical components. One can have any vehicle, regardless of which powertrain type that can have thousands of drive miles. Then very old automobiles can be found in the collectors car market that have been driven very little. The average life span of the 12 DVC battery is about 4 years, but the warranty is about 2 years/36,000 miles. The battery in my wife's 2010 RAV4 V6 lasted a little over ten years. I replaced it last month, and was told that instead of the former 5-year NAPA warranty, now it is two years
While an ICE automobile has an engine and transmission that contain lots of moving parts, EV's also have lots of moving parts which are the same as ICE automobiles: brake components such as rotors, pads, wheel bearings, steering linkages, drive units, wiper and door servos or motors, AC/Heat blower motors, and some have wiper motors at the headlights, or headlights that follow the direction of steering during night-driving. Some EV battery-temperature management systems include electric pumps. The drive units have driveshafts connected to the wheels (same as ICE automobiles). The drive unit has several moving parts, bearings, and reduction gears. Some drive units use oils to lubricate and cool the internal parts (similar to aromatic transmission). The most difficult and expensive component in an EV is its battery. The average high-capacity EV battery has a few thousand cells, and each cell in a module is connected to each other with a metallic link (conductor) at both the positive and negative ends of each cell.
Electric-Vehicle Battery Basics
Electric-car batteries are similar to, but far from the same as, a basic AA or AAA battery.www.caranddriver.com
There are numerous videos of EV drive units at "youtube."
An engine is basically metal parts wearing against other metal parts. Yes there should be (good quality, replaced at regular intervals) oil to lubricate the wear, but wear they will.
No clutch to burn out. No gearbox to wear out (not in the same sense anyway).
Yes brakes are basically the same on both. But of course the brakes on an EV might get 1/10th of the use. Maybe less depending on how you drive.
Suspension is the same in both. No advantage or disadvantage.
Electrics I see as a potential concern on any modern car. Neither will work without them these days.
Not having to pay for servicing every year is a big plus. Plus the oil that is wasted every year doing so. Of course along with the petrol or diesel they burn, another environmental concern.
Don’t forget that the usual electronic components that fail in an ICE are sensors associated with running the ICE. Crank position sensors, fuel pressure sensors,… These are endless. Yes there are electric comp that are common, but most of those are pretty well sorted now.
I’ve spent quit a bit of time under my past ICE replacing sensors. These fail usually because of hot/cold cycles that are eliminated by not having a hot ICE, not because sensors just fail…
Lets not even get into seals causing fluid contamination and/or leaks.
I’ve spent quit a bit of time under my past ICE replacing sensors. These fail usually because of hot/cold cycles that are eliminated by not having a hot ICE, not because sensors just fail…
Lets not even get into seals causing fluid contamination and/or leaks.
This is true. The car person that likes to tinker with their ride is going to have a lot of free time as they switch to EV’s.
Why? Still plenty to tinker with suspension, brakes, wheels, and various software hacks and updates to reconfigure the car and its behavior. Basically, the only thing not there is an ICE. Plenty of tinkering ahead, just slightly different.
a. Most of what you have told above is true,. An EV has fewer moving parts than an ICE automobile, but it still has thousands of non-moving parts attached to each other (the battery).
b. Not clutch to burnout is true. But some EV's and ICE automobiles have transmissions that have drive belts that wear out. Also, while EV's don't have the usual fully automatic geared transmissions found in most ICE automobiles, some still gave transmissions with reduction gears that are lubricated with oil. Look at some of the EV drive units posted at "youtube."
c. Mostly true. But in general all depends on how the driver uses the brakes. For example, when driving in slippery conditions the use of the brakes is one of the most dangerous actions to take. I use the brakes when I need to stop at the light, or an emergency, and seldom slow down the vehicle by the use of the brakes. What I learned to do was to accelerate and reduce speed with the gas pedal as much as possible, to coast to the light (before stopping), to slow down before arriving to a sharp turn (may have to use the brakes sometimes), to maintain speed with the gas pedal into the turn, and then accelerate by the end of the turn (no brake-use in a turn). My wife does use the brakes most of the time, but even so this year I had a mechanic replace the pads and rotors of her 2010 RAV4 V6 (that's after 13 years of driving it). None of our vehicles, except for hers needed new pads and rotors replaced
d. True.
e. That's is mostly true. All depends on being able to maintain your vehicle after the warranty is over. During the warranty one can take care of basic maintenance such as oil and filter replacement and things like that. But in some places, including some US cities, one has to take the car to a mechanic. I only take our (wife and I) automobiles to a shop for major repairs (like the brake work mentioned above). I do take a Toyota Tundra for tire installation and replacements because the tires are quite heavy compared to my 2012 Corolla. I also took it to a shop a few weeks ago to have a new "topper" installed (a bed cover made of fiberglass and painted to match the truck's paint color). It weights 180 lbs.
After retiring from work two times (two different organizations), and my wife once, we don't drive very much at all (we have four vehicles (2012 Corolla, 2010 RAV4, 2001 Silverado truck, and a 2013 Tundra truck). We haven't had any major repairs performed in our vehicles (other than told above). I take care of all the manor maintenance:
-Oil filter and oil replacement, cabin air filter, wiper blades and things like that once per year.
-Engine air filter once every two years.
-Tire replacement: Silverado three years ago, and the Tundra this year.
-Both the Corolla and RAV 4 have (each) two sets of tires/wheels. One for winter driving (Blizzak tires), and another for the rest of the year. All these tires are near 13 years old, but are in nearly perfect shape.
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My post above is quite long, so I will add the following: In the interior of Alaska crushed rock (gravel) is spread on the roads to aid with traction. This gravel often causes windshield breakage as it is thrown toward the windshield by other vehicles in front. I have had several windshields replaced through the years. This type of work is done at one of the local shops, but is not very expensive. Even if not using the vehicle insurance a new windshield costs from $300.00 to $400.00 USD.