Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[cyb3rdud3]

Still doubt "You won't find many people who love Tesla in Europe" is a true statement when the number 1 selling vehicle is a Tesla (and that doesn't even account for TM3, TMS, and TMX sales)...

Well, again that isn't necessarily that straight forward. Tesla cars are incredibly cheap. Now does that mean they get the car because they love it, or does that mean they get it because it is cheap!?

And then there are the incentives for tax and company car ownership. As per my point above they are cheap, they fall within the bracket to get the incentives. There is the perception of the supercharger network, they come at times with market specific free charging incentives. Does that mean people love them, or do people buy them because it makes financial sense as a company car?

You see, it really isn't that clear cut as to whether they are love them or not; most sold definitely. But so was the Toyota Corolla. Now who can honestly say they love a Toyota Corolla?

Sale numbers speak for themselves... More new car buyers have not only decided to go EV, but they picked a specific make/model, and I believe for the first time an SUV topped the sales chart.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

On mainland Europe yes, in the UK they are Vauxhall. Just the different branding in the General Motors Group.

Not owned by GM anymore They have been Stellantis since 2017 just like Opel

 

[JT2002TJ]

Well, again that isn't necessarily that straight forward. Tesla cars are incredibly cheap. Now does that mean they get the car because they love it, or does that mean they get it because it is cheap!?

And then there are the incentives for tax and company car ownership. As per my point above they are cheap, they fall within the bracket to get the incentives. There is the perception of the supercharger network, they come at times with market specific free charging incentives. Does that mean people love them, or do people buy them because it makes financial sense as a company car?

You see, it really isn't that clear cut as to whether they are love them or not; most sold definitely. But so was the Toyota Corolla. Now who can honestly say they love a Toyota Corolla?

You are assuming that people can’t love a deal…

Because you are a car guy (I am too) you are projecting your need for certain looks/features to love a car. In reality, majority of people simply love the fact that a car checks off boxes (fills a need).

For example, think of most of your friends/loved ones. Honestly, how many of them actually really have a passion for cars vs how many think of a car as a tool to function in life.

People speak with their wallets. The numbers don’t lie. Trying to find excuses other than what the numbers tell, is simply that, excuses. It’s not like the TMY was regionally, the number one selling vehicle. It was the worldwide number one selling vehicle, and also the number one in Europe.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

You are assuming that people can’t love a deal…

Because you are a car guy (I am too) you are projecting your need for certain looks/features to love a car. In reality, majority of people simply love the fact that a car checks off boxes (fills a need).

For example, think of most of your friends/loved ones. Honestly, how many of them actually really have a passion for cars vs how many think of a car as a tool to function in life.

People speak with their wallets. The numbers don’t lie. Trying to find excuses other than what the numbers tell, is simply that, excuses. It’s not like the TMY was regionally, the number one selling vehicle. It was the worldwide number one selling vehicle, and also the number one in Europe.

I'm not assuming anything, just reacting to what is being written and what the sales figure facts are. I'm thinking this is just a language and cultural difference that causes a lack of understanding. There are many cultures, and when non-native English speakers use certain words, they use it for a reason. Something you don't seem to register at all in your equation.

 

[Reverend Benny]

Anyone tried out the new Mini Cooper or have thought of doing so?
Not sure I'm liking the new design or that its now more of a Chinese engineered car and manufactured there.
But the preview tests seem to point towards its being a great little electric car.

Tried the "old" 2023 model and its great fun to drive and I love the design.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Anyone tried out the new Mini Cooper or have thought of doing so?
Not sure I'm liking the new design or that its now more of a Chinese engineered car and manufactured there.
But the preview tests seem to point towards its being a great little electric car.

Tried the "old" 2023 model and its great fun to drive and I love the design.

It shares some parts and characteristics of my i3. But I’m planning to keep with what I have for a few more years yet.

 

[I7guy]

Anyone tried out the new Mini Cooper or have thought of doing so?
Not sure I'm liking the new design or that its now more of a Chinese engineered car and manufactured there.
But the preview tests seem to point towards its being a great little electric car.

Tried the "old" 2023 model and its great fun to drive and I love the design.

Too bad in the states it's not eligible for the $7500 tax credit.

 

[Reverend Benny]

Too bad in the states it's not eligible for the $7500 tax credit.

Is it cuz its to cheap or more related to its size or what type of vehicle (sports...ish)?

 

[Reverend Benny]

It shares some parts and characteristics of my i3. But I’m planning to keep with what I have for a few more years yet.

Have been eyeballing the i3s but its still a bit to expensive for what you get I think (used).
A shame they stopped producing it, especially the REX version. Interesting to see Mazda going down the REX patch with some of their EVs.

 

[I7guy]

Well, again that isn't necessarily that straight forward. Tesla cars are incredibly cheap. Now does that mean they get the car because they love it, or does that mean they get it because it is cheap!?

And then there are the incentives for tax and company car ownership. As per my point above they are cheap, they fall within the bracket to get the incentives. There is the perception of the supercharger network, they come at times with market specific free charging incentives. Does that mean people love them, or do people buy them because it makes financial sense as a company car?

You see, it really isn't that clear cut as to whether they are love them or not; most sold definitely. But so was the Toyota Corolla. Now who can honestly say they love a Toyota Corolla?

The point you are making is that the underlying reason for why Teslas are popular can't be discerned from the sales figures.

Mass market electric vehicles, with a good subsidy, are needed to drive the adoption, at least in the US. The likes of the Model S/X, Rivian, Lucid or even Cadillac producing the hand-built $350000 won't drive this adoption. I do not know how we can know the publics perception of the slew of expensive electric vehicles coming out in 2024 without the federal tax credit. (which includes the model 3 refresh) .

But I agree the Tesla model 3 is cheap compared to a Lucid. But I posit people just don't go for cheap things that are garbage. Whether you like Tesla or not, their execution is very good and while the model 3/y interior is not up to Bentley standards, it is very livable with on a day to day basis.

 

[I7guy]

Is it cuz its to cheap or more related to its size or what type of vehicle (sports...ish)?

The federal tax credit is related to location of manufacture.

 

[Reverend Benny]

Has any of the big EV car companies made any official statement regarding how long they will keep supporting a car with software updates (security updates, bug fixes etc).

 

[I7guy]

Has any of the big EV car companies made any official statement regarding how long they will keep supporting a car with software updates (security updates, bug fixes etc).

How long do legacy automakers support their cars with software updates?

 

[Apple fanboy]

Have been eyeballing the i3s but its still a bit to expensive for what you get I think (used).
A shame they stopped producing it, especially the REX version. Interesting to see Mazda going down the REX patch with some of their EVs.

The REX never interested me. But yes it was a shame they ended production. Also the direction BMW went after the i3 was very different. Shame. Light and efficient EV’s make a lot more sense (to me) than big heavy SUV’s. But I’ve never owned an SUV in my life. Hopefully never will.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I'm not assuming anything, just reacting to what is being written and what the sales figure facts are. I'm thinking this is just a language and cultural difference that causes a lack of understanding. There are many cultures, and when non-native English speakers use certain words, they use it for a reason. Something you don't seem to register at all in your equation.

I am not assuming, I am reading words that are written. It would be an assumption to jump to a language barrier.

There have been many many posts in this thread discounting Tesla’s success, putting high sales to everything other than a winning equation.

The Model Y was the number 1 selling vehicle in 2023, worldwide and in Europe. In the end people do not buy what they hate, they may not love it as much as a S-Class, but they definitely do not hate it.

A Toyota Corolla sells, because it checks boxes in the buyers needs. There is no point in saying, it sells but no one likes it, clearly they do, they bought it…

I have never heard excuses as to why the Corolla was king, why is it there needs to be excuses as to why TMY was number 1 in 2023.

Its simple, as a whole, it had what more people wanted in their vehicle vs other vehicles for sale in 2023 (as a single vehicle, obviously they did not sell more TMY’s that all other vehicles combined)…

 

[Reverend Benny]

How long do legacy automakers support their cars with software updates?

What do you mean by legacy automakers?

 

[JT2002TJ]

What do you mean by legacy automakers?

ICE makers prior to EV’s technological jump.

My 2015 U-connect Ram received OTA updates for a few years, and occasionally they still do, but they basically wrote it off after 5 years. I sold the Ram. They added Siri/Android Auto buttons by long pressing the voice command button While I owned it In an OTA update.

Tesla Model S’ still get OS updates, since 2012??? Not sure of the exact year.

I think we will see support for a lot longer, now that these vehicles are much more “smart.” They run the risk of hacking, so for security, I think the manufacturers will have to support them much longer (at a minimum). But it is nice, with EVs at least, that new features are constantly added, this was very rare with legacy auto manufacturers (it did happen, but not to this extent).

 

[Reverend Benny]

ICE makers prior to EV’s technological jump.

My 2015 U-connect Ram received OTA updates for a few years, and occasionally they still do, but they basically wrote it off after 5 years. I sold the Ram. They added Siri/Android Auto buttons by long pressing the voice command button While I owned it In an OTA update.

Tesla Model S’ still get OS updates, since 2012??? Not sure of the exact year.

I think we will see support for a lot longer, now that these vehicles are much more “smart.” They run the risk of hacking, so for security, I think the manufacturers will have to support them much longer (at a minimum). But it is nice, with EVs at least, that new features are constantly added, this was very rare with legacy auto manufacturers (it did happen, but not to this extent).

I think its quite an interesting topic these days and just like with phones, something that could be an USP if a manufacturer can stand by its promise.
Its not only relevant for EV's but EV's tend to be more connected and were one of the first to receive full OTA updates.

It can also be interesting for second hand buyers to know if the car is getting updates if there are software issues found and if that comes with a cost.

 

[diamond.g]

Has any of the big EV car companies made any official statement regarding how long they will keep supporting a car with software updates (security updates, bug fixes etc).

No one has officially. Tesla still seems to support the legacy cars at least for NHTSA Recalls.

 

[jasonlasky]

Does Apple still have any chance to compete in the quickly evolving EV market? Like solar panel manufacturing the EV market will be undisputedly dominated by China & in this case Tesla within 2 to 3 years? Perhaps if Apple makes a manufacturing deal with Tesla to make an Apple customised body, features, interior & CarPlay vehicle but using all of Tesla’s multiple engineering tech, including FSD? That deal would need to be worked on starting now, with dedicated gigafactories in planning as soon as possible.
The new Tesla modular platform for the next generation model will be the basis for all mass manufacturing of EVs - including those in China which will copy it to avoid getting left behind. Every continent will need to consolidate its vehicle manufacturing industry to share the new modular platform.
However, the manufacturing technology & efficiency is not enough, they will need the vehicle automation to go with it. Apple is now too late to join the pace of the evolution of new EV tech and will be left behind like Kodak, Nokia and BlackBerry - unless it makes a deal for manufacturing with Tesla. I don’t think Apple will hitch its autonomous EV to the Chinese copy of Tesla‘s tech and it’s just too late to catch up with Tesla all by itself.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Does Apple still have any chance to compete in the quickly evolving EV market? Like solar panel manufacturing the EV market will be undisputedly dominated by China & in this case Tesla within 2 to 3 years? Perhaps if Apple makes a manufacturing deal with Tesla to make an Apple customised body, features, interior & CarPlay vehicle but using all of Tesla’s multiple engineering tech, including FSD? That deal would need to be worked on starting now, with dedicated gigafactories in planning as soon as possible.
The new Tesla modular platform for the next generation model will be the basis for all mass manufacturing of EVs - including those in China which will copy it to avoid getting left behind. Every continent will need to consolidate its vehicle manufacturing industry to share the new modular platform.
However, the manufacturing technology & efficiency is not enough, they will need the vehicle automation to go with it. Apple is now too late to join the pace of the evolution of new EV tech and will be left behind like Kodak, Nokia and BlackBerry - unless it makes a deal for manufacturing with Tesla. I don’t think Apple will hitch its autonomous EV to the Chinese copy of Tesla‘s tech and it’s just too late to catch up with Tesla all by itself.

I can’t see Tesla thinking they need Apple. I think Apple won’t produce an EV. It’s to risky a venture for them.
As for the Chinese companies, some are well established. Others won’t last the distance.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I can’t see Tesla thinking they need Apple. I think Apple won’t produce an EV. It’s to risky a venture for them.
As for the Chinese companies, some are well established. Others won’t last the distance.

So many people criticise the Chinese companies when they lead the World in manufacturing and there is a reason, Volvo, BMW, Polestar and Tesla for example, base factories there. BYD seem to be making a huge impact across Asia and Europe. I see a lot of criticism on EV threads about them yet every car reviewer who has driven the Seal is impressed. The build quality is high and the level of features is impressive. The fact the battery works and it doesn’t catch fire when ruptured seems to be making the competition sit up and take notice too. I hope it makes the European brands improve and fast, because China are leading the world right now in EV innovation whether people want to admit it or not.

 

[jz0309]

So many people criticise the Chinese companies when they lead the World in manufacturing and there is a reason, Volvo, BMW, Polestar and Tesla for example, base factories there. BYD seem to be making a huge impact across Asia and Europe. I see a lot of criticism on EV threads about them yet every car reviewer who has driven the Seal is impressed. The build quality is high and the level of features is impressive. The fact the battery works and it doesn’t catch fire when ruptured seems to be making the competition sit up and take notice too. I hope it makes the European brands improve and fast, because China are leading the world right now in EV innovation whether people want to admit it or not.

Yes, the Chinese should be the biggest fear factor for the European car makers …
Here in the US, with the current geopolitical climate, they won’t stand a chance for the foreseeable future …
The US automakers (GM, Ford, Stellantis w/Chrysler/Dodge) have shoehorned themselves into the unaffordable segment or have nothing at all. Tesla continues to drive innovation and cost (down), the few others (Lucid, Rivian) are still too niche.
There is still not enough focus on “home” charging for those who do not live in a house, apartments/condos need incentives/regulation to install infrastructure.
Still a long way, more competition will help

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Yes, the Chinese should be the biggest fear factor for the European car makers …
Here in the US, with the current geopolitical climate, they won’t stand a chance for the foreseeable future …
The US automakers (GM, Ford, Stellantis w/Chrysler/Dodge) have shoehorned themselves into the unaffordable segment or have nothing at all. Tesla continues to drive innovation and cost (down), the few others (Lucid, Rivian) are still too niche.
There is still not enough focus on “home” charging for those who do not live in a house, apartments/condos need incentives/regulation to install infrastructure.
Still a long way, more competition will help

They don’t necessarily need the US market, and to be fair, America has always been very distant to the rest of the car industry with many homegrown brands solely operating in its home market and not appealing outside. I suppose the smartphone sector is similar where Chinese brands are blocked in the US, but selling enormous amounts across the rest of the World.

The infrastructure and home charging situation needs more work here. Plenty of terraced houses, flats and apartments where people couldn’t home charge even if they wanted to.

 

[jasonlasky]

I can’t see Tesla thinking they need Apple. I think Apple won’t produce an EV. It’s to risky a venture for them.
As for the Chinese companies, some are well established. Others won’t last the distance.

I agree. Apple needs Tesla if they want CarPlay to be a big part of its customer’s lifestyle in the future. South Korea is not likely to manufacture 20% of the 100 million vehicles. Japan has denied or delayed too long. If Apple waits for Europe it will be part of the Kodak moment for vehicles. America will beg Tesla to license its technology but too late. The past is gone. Apple better set in motion its interest in the future of EVs this year or fail to put its brand and OS in front of vehicle passengers.