Why is Big Sur so ugly?

[Tozovac]

right, but you responded directly to me. perhaps be more judicious in who you quote. and i fixed your last sentence for you:

"Otherwise, in my opinion, the overt minimalism is more for trendily staying newish."

yes, I responded directly to your post #1,267 which repeated the same old "some like this, some like that" and I used it as an opportunity to openly (i.e., not to you directly) re-ask to hear from anyone about the specific ways the interfaces before flat design and before all the injected minimalism/white/chromatic/buttonless stuff proved to be inefficient/slower for them. How were more overt button shapes w/clearly defined tappable areas less efficient? How were apps with "lickable/3D stoplight buttons" less efficient? How were interfaces pre-flat-design less efficient for you, specifically? How were apps with clearly colored/defined headers, and tools/command areas, and clearly defined/colored sidebar areas and then clearly defined content areas less efficient for you? How were toolbars that injected some color for different tools across the top bar (instead of all-light-grey text-only buttonless commands) less efficient.

I think there are those who like the cleaner/minimal look, but I have yet to read examples of how providing slightly more definition/detail was less efficient to use and/or how flat/buttonless/monochromatic/white-out fixed a design flaw with the "other way of doing things." It would appear only that there are those who just like/prefer the new flat/monochromatic/buttonless design aesthetic based only on preferred form/fashion instead of improved function. That's perfectly fine. An example hasn't been (and I think can't be) offered.

Restated again once again for the nth time:

1) I state that flat/buttonless/monochromatic interfaces are less efficient, engaging, and intuitive because of the reduced definition and cues promote less intuitive "subconscious recognizing of the tool/area desired," and because of the additional micro-pauses of time it takes to sometimes gain focus on the tool/zone/area needed as well as the extra time taken to find the needed tool now buried under a hamburger or gear or ellipses icon.

2) Fill in the blank: Non-flat, more colorful, button-using skeu/neumorphism-esque interfaces like pre-iOS7 and pre-Yosemite with clearly defined borders/bars/toolbars/sidebars/"content areas" are less efficient and/or intuitive because ___________________________.

 

[fisherking]

yes, I responded directly to your post #1,267 which repeated the same old "some like this, some like that" and I used it as an opportunity to openly (i.e., not to you directly) re-ask to hear from anyone about the specific ways the interfaces before flat design and before all the injected minimalism/white/chromatic/buttonless stuff proved to be inefficient/slower for them. How were more overt button shapes w/clearly defined tappable areas less efficient? How were apps with "lickable/3D stoplight buttons" less efficient? How were interfaces pre-flat-design less efficient for you, specifically? How were apps with clearly colored/defined headers, and tools/command areas, and clearly defined/colored sidebar areas and then clearly defined content areas less efficient for you? How were toolbars that injected some color for different tools across the top bar (instead of all-light-grey text-only buttonless commands) less efficient.

I think there are those who like the cleaner/minimal look, but I have yet to read examples of how providing slightly more definition/detail was less efficient to use and/or how flat/buttonless/monochromatic/white-out fixed a design flaw with the "other way of doing things." It would appear only that there are those who just like/prefer the new flat/monochromatic/buttonless design aesthetic based only on preferred form/fashion instead of improved function. That's perfectly fine. An example hasn't been (and I think can't be) offered.

Restated again once again for the nth time:

1) I state that flat/buttonless/monochromatic interfaces are less efficient, engaging, and intuitive because of the reduced definition and cues promote less intuitive "subconscious recognizing of the tool/area desired," and because of the additional micro-pauses of time it takes to sometimes gain focus on the tool/zone/area needed as well as the extra time taken to find the needed tool now buried under a hamburger or gear or ellipses icon.

2) Fill in the blank: Non-flat, more colorful, button-using skeu/neumorphism-esque interfaces like pre-iOS7 and pre-Yosemite with clearly defined borders/bars/toolbars/sidebars/"content areas" are less efficient and/or engaging and/or intuitive because ___________________________.

i have no need to 'prove' that the previous GUIs were better, or worse. each one was fine in it's time (in my opinion), just as big sur's GUI is fine now.

you keep saying things like this, but it's you saying them: "It would appear only that there are those who just like/prefer the new flat/monochromatic/buttonless design aesthetic based only on preferred form/fashion instead of improved function"

and i don't agree, at all. i like it because, as with previous OSes, it seems of the moment, and i like being in the moment. some ppl just seem to prefer the 'good old days' (whatever that means).

and that, for me, is the whole point: this is the OS now, and you adapt, or spend time whining about it (i don't mean you, specifically, i mean 'you' in general).

anyway, this thread will still be going when the next OS version drops, and i'll move to that OSes forum... where the whole cycle will begin again, and ppl will be asking "why can't it be like it was in big sur"... 🤪

 

[LFC2020]

Big Sur is stunning 👌❤️‍🔥 about time apple updated the UI.

 

[Tozovac]

i have no need to 'prove' that the previous GUIs were better, or worse. each one was fine in it's time (in my opinion), just as big sur's GUI is fine now.

You definitely have no need to prove anything and don't need to respond to my request. Again, again, it's not a question for you specifically.

My request is purely for my own desire to read a reasonable example of how non-flat, non-buttonless, non-monochromatic, etc, etc, etc, is less vague and more efficient outside of personal preferences.

Then maybe I won't have reason to keep saying things like flat design, ios7, and Big Sur is mostly/all about fashion/appearance than any discernible improved function across the board, or any repairing of something that was broken before.

No need to follow up to this message, just to share!

 

[fisherking]

You definitely have no need to prove anything and don't need to respond to my request. Again, again, it's not a question for you specifically.

My request is purely for my own desire to read a reasonable example of how non-flat, non-buttonless, non-monochromatic, etc, etc, etc, is less vague and more efficient outside of personal preferences.

Then maybe I won't have reason to keep saying things like flat design, ios7, and Big Sur is mostly/all about fashion/appearance than any discernible improved function across the board, or any repairing of something that was broken before.

No need to follow up to this message, just to share!

i have to ask this tho, because this is what i don't get: why does anyone have to prove any one design is 'superior' to the other? everyone reacts differently; some find it perfectly easy to adapt to a new look, others struggle.

when dark mode showed up, i moved to it. took me a few weeks to get comfortable with it, now i swear by it. in contrast, i didn't need any time to adapt to big sur, i just started using it.

it isn't a competition (unless you keep making it one), and it's not 'better/worse'. it's an aesthetic design you don't like... and don't have to like. and that's all there is. big sur is no more or less 'fashionable' than every mac OS that preceded it; it's just this year's 'look'.

 

[CasualFanboy]

Well of course it's an opinion. I think we all get that. With a decent sized user base, removing choice over practically everything is going to lead to complaints. I know OSX was never famous for its customization, but not long ago it was still practical to adjust some things to your liking.

We're discussing general preferences, not fundamentals. Someone hates the UNIX hierarchy, global menus, docks, and window buttons on the left side won't be using OSX in the first place.

Maybe Apple is worried about their reputation if anyone gets a virus on their Mac, so they have introduced these brutal measures to prevent us from exercising control over our own property. They never should have started in with that stupid campaign about Windows getting viruses as if Macs were immune. No system with an internet connection is any safer than the user makes it. But making the assumption that all of your users are too dumb to determine these things for themselves has been a disaster to their image among advanced users.

Wouldn't it be great if there was an option to strip out every contour, gradient, line, shadow, animation, right-angle, and visual cue from the interface? That's all Big Sur is anyway. And then everyone would be happy.

 

[fisherking]

Well of course it's an opinion. I think we all get that. With a decent sized user base, removing choice over practically everything is going to lead to complaints. I know OSX was never famous for its customization, but not long ago it was still practical to adjust some things to your liking.

We're discussing general preferences, not fundamentals. Someone hates the UNIX hierarchy, global menus, docks, and window buttons on the left side won't be using OSX in the first place.

Maybe Apple is worried about their reputation if anyone gets a virus on their Mac, so they have introduced these brutal measures to prevent us from exercising control over our own property. They never should have started in with that stupid campaign about Windows getting viruses as if Macs were immune. No system with an internet connection is any safer than the user makes it. But making the assumption that all of your users are too dumb to determine these things for themselves has been a disaster to their image among advanced users.

Wouldn't it be great if there was an option to strip out every contour, gradient, line, shadow, animation, right-angle, and visual cue from the interface? That's all Big Sur is anyway. And then everyone would be happy.

one thing i agree on... why can't we have options? why can't we change the login background, icon colors or shapes, other basic graphical things, that have nothing to do with security?

apple's rigid control over these things is frustrating. whatever i may think of the GUI (which i've stated i like about 5000 times ), i don't understand why some level of theming, and customization, isn't supported in the OS. but this is apple...

 

[Bruninho]

My preference is for an OS that I do not need to theme or customize. Period. I do not have patience to keep customizing an entire OS for hours just so things work the way I want or "because I want it to be pretty". Apple and Big Sur fills this void in particular for me. This is the very reason why I hate Android and other similar OS. I prefer an "out of the box" experience and this is what Apple has been giving to me in the last 11 years.

Folder icons is something I have been doing since El Capitan just for fun, since we're always allowed to change them. Imagine if Apple had made these folders with different colors in first place; You would be still complaining "why the Downloads folder is red? Should be green". 🤷‍♂️

Messing with the system files/folders is not for the faint hearted. Things can go wrong easily. If Apple were to lessen their security measures, the Genius Bar would be full of people complaining "this is not working" even though it was these people's fault because they shouldn't be messing with these files in first place.

As a power user, I know what I am doing, like many other power users. You can still change the /Applications folder icon, just have to do a workaround for this. Instead of rushing to a forum, using an avatar and signature yelling to all four sides "how much I dislike Big Sur and its UI", I just worked my way around my problem.

Big Sur is a great OS. Flat and Fluid designs are here to stay for a long time. Neuomorphism will just fade away as fast as it came, it's a flop and will never make a success. Every request coming to my office is for a flat, simple, minimalistic design. Last week I was asked to design a dashboard for teachers in a LMS. I did it my way, full of flat and minimalist design stuff, and they were very, very pleased. Ten years ago the clients would go crazy and want stupidities like "a gradient here", some "gif animation" here, like if they wanted their website to look like a 90's geocities webpage. Absolutely stupid, but thanks God these days are gone.

I just do not agree with the icons being iOS style icons. Since the start of the discussion these icons were my one and only remark about Big Sur; other than that, the OS is excellent and has a pleasant experience with the Flat Design. I love the SF Symbol icons and I sometimes use them in web works along with a few modifications.

 

[allan.nyholm]

@Bruninho I think I understand your take on things. And I get what @fisherking is saying too. But the following might express my totally naivete and lack of a higher IQ.

It's perhaps more fair to say all these things now than in the time of MacThemes. Although, it could have happened. No one was questioning theming that much in those days. The patching of Mac OS X Tiger could have been a talking point for sure.

Someone would have some nerve to come on and ask/tell *Daisuke Yamashita, Susumu Yoshida, Jonas Rask, Rick Patrick, David Lanham, Louie Mantia etc; "but why don't you just use the default theme in Mac OS X Tiger"
"Don't use ShapeShifter and stop theming your Mac OS X Tiger installation with all those themes and all the icons that you make"
And "What's up with all those whole folder icon sets and Ecoute+Bowtie skins/themes you make. Those are not supposed to be made because Tiger looks awesome with the theme and folders it has already. You should stop these things and use Tiger. Haven't you got anything better to do?!"

*There are of course many many more.. those are just my heroes.

The topic title couldn't be more loaded and it was a good thread title that is now fueling this rather long discussion where we are basically?! in agreement that; Apple has taken measures to shut theming down.
And that the shutting theming (like we discuss here) is related to branding macOS in a manner that doesn't hurt Apple.

I'm of course not, thankfully, in any seat the table at Apple HQ - so for me to state the above about the shutting down of theming e.g System folders or System drives or the System's theme is me just blowing stuff out from withing my online pipehole

Windows theming hasn't hurt Windows. But, I would imagine that Microsoft isn't happy about the patching of the DLL file that now allow theming.
The company behind WindowBlinds (Stardock) has its issues too with Windows 10, in particular, and theming going forward. Read all about that on the Stardock forum if anyone wants to.
Stardock then released Curtains which is more in line with what Microsoft's Windows 10 accept of theming - it's also rather scraped compared to WindowBlinds. But, there's still cool (cool = my wording) things to be made. And WindowBlinds is still being developed and there are a butt-load of themes available for WindowBlinds and still also for Windows 10's Msstyle DLL.

Seeing as this forum shut down the Customization section - those that dislike everything "ricing" / customization can't ignore threads such as these and comments such as mine.
I certainly appreciate all the discussions around this customization business as long as it doesn't turn in to a direct hate towards anyone showcasing anything related to macOS theming.
That wouldn't fly. And if I've ever come across as hating any user or being snarky in a comment on here then please accept my apologies.

 

[qoop]

i think it's fine. i like the look of it (but i like sleek minimalism); most importantly, all my work apps work, and life goes on.

to be honest, i work just as i did in catalina, and every mac os that preceded that. am, as always, more interested in what happens under the hood; most important of all, i want to be able to do the things i do on my macs... and i can.

Thank you for your polite response.

 

[qoop]

I’d tell them to **** off and find another designer. I do not work with that.

I have to admire your implacable character. Us designers shouldn't have to compromise on these issues.

 

[qoop]

i can't think of a single thing wrong with spending an afternoon customizing folders (or something) on your mac. but it's sort-of like this:

"what did you do today?"

"i customized the system folders on my mac. what did you do?"

"i finished my novel, sorted all my email, and watched a great movie"

still, whatever works, or is fun, or seems important...

I weeded our drive and found a £5 note on the road.

 

[qoop]

Instead of moaning about the Big Sur UI then why don’t you do something about it???? Moaning will not get you what you want for the OS. DO SOMETHING ABOUT. I’ve presented to you at least five things you can do.

Like I do with the folder icons.

Neuomorphism will not succeed in this market. It’s so gross and ugly that I refuse to use apps with this design. Flat design is the MOST wanted design from my clients and the market, and this will not change until someone comes with something better. The market has spoken. Everyone wants Flat and minimalist design.

If you’re not happy then don’t use Big Sur. Use something else. But you’re going to complain about, at least read the Apple Human Interface Guidelines before spitting out stupidities.

"Everyone wants Flat and minimalist design."

I don't think Mercedes wants that. They seem quite keen on drop shadows, bevels, shiny glass surfaces and gradients.

 

[funnysharks]

Mail icon looks really bad quality compared to all the others

 

[elptdbi3lYI]

2) Fill in the blank: Non-flat, more colorful, button-using skeu/neumorphism-esque interfaces like pre-iOS7 and pre-Yosemite with clearly defined borders/bars/toolbars/sidebars/"content areas" are less efficient and/or intuitive because ___________________________.

I don't really see how mavericks is better than yosemite or vice versa from UI usability stand point, but see how big sur is worse than both, e.g. dragging window by parts close to toolbar buttons is guessing work because there are no borders around the buttons, it's also more difficult to see if button is enabled/disabled.

I love the SF Symbol icons and I sometimes use them in web works along with a few modifications.

SF Symbols are convenience over quality, they scale badly and you end up with blurry mess for icons even on retina displays. Sketch developers were not satisfied with that and for big sur release they remade toolbar icons in conventional methods.

 

[Bruninho]

"Everyone wants Flat and minimalist design."

I don't think Mercedes wants that. They seem quite keen on drop shadows, bevels, shiny glass surfaces and gradients.

I'm also a racer. I know many mechanics in this world. One of them also said that Mercedes is quite keen on building cars that break on road. His garage is full of Mercedes and Land Rover cars to fix...

 

[Djerome]

Hopefully someone will enjoy this.

I just ordered a new Macbook Air to replace my 10 year old MacBook pro running High Sierra. This thread is making me think I might notice a change

 

[fisherking]

Hopefully someone will enjoy this.

I just ordered a new Macbook Air to replace my 10 year old MacBook pro running High Sierra. This thread is making me think I might notice a change

you will. more speed. better functionality. better screen. less heat. clean, well-defined interface (ok, i had to add that last one in)...

 

[drdudj]

i, like many others, have been following this discussion, and i can see why some like the gui of big sur, and others do not. some of the reasons why some don't like it doesn't make sense, at least to me. granted that i am not a big power user, but as i have stated before, for the past 26 years the only computers i've had have all ran on windows. this is my first mac, and i was a little bit apprehensive about switching over to a different os. but from the moment i opened the case and started checking things out it didn't take me long to figure things out. the only problems i had, if you can call it that, was learning the various keys to use to move the cursor forward or backwards in a document, or moving to the top or bottom of a page, and other such commands. if a 26 year windows user can switch over to the mac and invest minimal time to learn the nuisances, then i would think that any mac user would be able to pick up right where they left off. would it be nice if there was some degree of customization available to the users? yea, but if not, that doesn't take away from how good this computer, with big sur, really is.

 

[Bruninho]

i, like many others, have been following this discussion, and i can see why some like the gui of big sur, and others do not. some of the reasons why some don't like it doesn't make sense, at least to me. granted that i am not a big power user, but as i have stated before, for the past 26 years the only computers i've had have all ran on windows. this is my first mac, and i was a little bit apprehensive about switching over to a different os. but from the moment i opened the case and started checking things out it didn't take me long to figure things out. the only problems i had, if you can call it that, was learning the various keys to use to move the cursor forward or backwards in a document, or moving to the top or bottom of a page, and other such commands. if a 26 year windows user can switch over to the mac and invest minimal time to learn the nuisances, then i would think that any mac user would be able to pick up right where they left off. would it be nice if there was some degree of customization available to the users? yea, but if not, that doesn't take away from how good this computer, with big sur, really is.

THIS. Excellent post.

You know the UI works flawlessly when a longtime Windows user switches to macOS without much hassle.

Just like how it happened to me 11 years ago (from Windows 7 to Snow Leopard) it's still the same experience for Big Sur.

Designing a UI is pretty much like a joke. If you have to explain the joke, then it wasn't a great joke...

 

[Bruninho]

To whom may concern... This is an easy way to do the folders:

How to change folder color on Mac: 3 Easy methods - iGeeksBlog

Changing the color of a folder on a Mac might help you quickly recognize it amid other files and folders. It may also be used to organize, categorize, or prioritize information. So, if you are trying to add vibrancy to your screen or make it easy to find specific folders, learning to change...

www.igeeksblog.com

Not my process, I have a slight more complicated one because I wanted some gradients. But this one is easier and one color per folder.

 

[Bruninho]

Slowly improving my icons one by one... I have at least more 30 or 20 to do, but these are custom like a DOSBox folder, for example.

 

[Dire]

This is all my option, but I've heard some hate on Big Sur here and there as well. My question is, why does Apple want to make Mac OS into IOS like seriously; I've always liked how good and "professional" OS X looked, but now it just looks so unprofessional...

And when Apple pushes this update, do you think it is safe for me to stay on Catalina?

Like I just got my new Mac, and I see this...

I was a poor beleaguered windows 10 user, hating the Laggy crap the OS had Become, Hating the fact that I ABSOLUTELY had to have the latest virus software and every 6 months, reinstall the Entire Operating system or my laptop would slow to a crawl.... and I just gave up using it for the last 4 years, favouring my Mobile devices.

then The Mac Mini rolls up, Riding inside Big Sur, and Says ...... hey ..... I got you... no probs. I feel your pain, and I am here to back you up..

I install it and yes. Really, really, Fugly default wallpaper.. took a few clicks to change that, and Its its reminding me of my coastal home.

Now, in regards to professionalism in its styling. uhmmm, not having seen the OS you were expecting, but definitely Glorying in my new experience with an OS that Kicks Windows back to the Gutter it crawled out of, I'm finding it hard to relate. My ONE, and only question to Apple is ... "why on gods green earth do you market an OS with a Technicolor barf Splat as your Default Wallpaper?" 🤮

yes, IMHO BigSur is Crisp, clean, Ultra fast on M1, and never ever, ever, has any problem with how much I throw at it, unless I sayyyyy, for example, install parallels for M1 and the 64 bit arm Windows Insider Program on a virtual machine, and then tweak the Parallels desktop with some extra updates, so I can smoothly play Warframe on PC (at 60FPS 1440p Ultra wide) in my virtual machine inside of Mac mini M1 Big Sur, then its still blazingly fast, but when you leave the Virtual machine on and go back to Safari to browse the web, sometimes (but not frequently) my Logitech Mx 3.0 mouse will stutter scroll and webpages take a bit longer to load (instead of instantly) and I am reminded what a hot mess intel based software is, ugh. shut down VM and reboot Big Sur and All is blazing fast again..

Big Sur is clean. the layout Looks better than Any version of windows I've ever had. Did I mention how Janky windows 10 seems? and it looks like a two-year old was randomly placing different sized menu Icons in random areas in the menu bar just to Annoy the adults who have to use it. Gigantic buttons and oversimplified apps to treat us like the apes we are for using it.

I Preferred any version of windows before 10 and its likely to remain a hot mess. I am grateful I'm finally using an OS that makes sense, has a clean layout and just works flawlessly, with no problems so far.

But, I have no idea what your current operating system looks or performs like. So, ill shut up now 😂

 

[drdudj]

i was just messing around the other day looking at various settings on my first ever mac, which i've eluded to in previous posts on this thread, and not that it's a big change to the gui, but if you go to "accessibility/display" settings and enable "increase contrast" it outlines the various buttons and gives you a different look. play with the other settings in "display" and maybe there's something else you might like the looks of.

 

[Feyl]

if you go to "accessibility/display" settings and enable "increase contrast" it outlines the various buttons and gives you a different look.

That's the way how to make it look even worse.