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Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?
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Sorry to be late getting back to you. The Times has several articles on this subject, and I have a subscription. However, the comment about photographing the photo themselves came from the comments. I am no expert in this area so I can't say how accurate his or her info is. But they did state that the hashes based on specific photo that have the information embedded into them, so that printing and taking pictures would create in essence new information.
I think I’m in the same boat. I’m not planning to leave immediately because there’s just not options I would consider that are better. The thing is though the two major reasons I’ve stuck with iPhone since the 5 are superior privacy and reliability over Android. Not having all the features seemed to be an acceptable price to pay.
Since then Android has improved but I don’t think it’s quite on par with iOS when it comes to reliability. As to privacy well now neither seems to be a great choice so maybe a tie. If I see an Android phone that catches my eye it’s definitely a possibility.
How would they check the image if it was E2E encrypted? So maybe they could have a second method to download suspicious images?
If you are thinking about using Linux as your main system and are using CaptureOne Pro, there is hope: https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002902958/comments/4405745141009
I am seriously thinking about going back to a Linux system. I spent some time on it at the weekend.
Dolphin, the file manager of KDE Plasma, unfortunately does not take XATTR into account when copying files. Unfortunately I had to realise that. As a result, tags are lost. The bug seems to be known and I hope it will be fixed soon.
It's a real pity to be so disappointed by Apple. And I have always found Apple's silence terrible. Sometimes there is no information about updates either.
From my point of view, the advantages were greater than the disadvantages. So I've accepted some of the things I don't like in the Apple ecosystem. But I am very critical of the fact that they are now snooping around on the devices.
I don't use the (i)Cloud, or only to a very limited extent. The new "feature" still bothers me. This "feature" could be further developed in the wrong direction
Let's see what I do now. In any case, my trust in Apple has been shaken, no matter what Apple does now.
Unfortunately, I can no longer recommend any Apple devices without concern. The exception might be the AppleTV if you don't use the iCloud (Photos).
I am seriously thinking about going back to a Linux system. I spent some time on it at the weekend.
Dolphin, the file manager of KDE Plasma, unfortunately does not take XATTR into account when copying files. Unfortunately I had to realise that. As a result, tags are lost. The bug seems to be known and I hope it will be fixed soon.
It's a real pity to be so disappointed by Apple. And I have always found Apple's silence terrible. Sometimes there is no information about updates either.
From my point of view, the advantages were greater than the disadvantages. So I've accepted some of the things I don't like in the Apple ecosystem. But I am very critical of the fact that they are now snooping around on the devices.
I don't use the (i)Cloud, or only to a very limited extent. The new "feature" still bothers me. This "feature" could be further developed in the wrong direction
Let's see what I do now. In any case, my trust in Apple has been shaken, no matter what Apple does now.
Unfortunately, I can no longer recommend any Apple devices without concern. The exception might be the AppleTV if you don't use the iCloud (Photos).
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Can you go into more detail?I went on Privacy.Apple.Com and did the big request for what data Apple has on me.
HOLY MOUNTAINOUS MOLEHILLS BATMAN!!!!
Apple has more info on me than Google!
I’ve been doing Apple for quite a while and have been doing Android / Chrome for just as long.
This coming week I am going to see what Apple will allow me to “remove” from this ginormous dumpster.
The instant I see someone invoke THE SLIPPERY SLOPE gambit, I know they have no idea what they are talking about. Intellectual laziness like this is a waster of everyone's time.
I don't either. And admittedly I'm not up to speed on the full context of the question that was asked, "what does under-18 marriage have to do with CSAM?"
Under-18 marriage could be many things, including a 21 year old man marrying a 17 year old woman. And, while I wouldn't necessarily see this as the easiest arrangement in today's world, I also don't classify it anywhere close to "child sexual abuse" because it's obviously not.
I say "in today's world" because I see what the culture has done to people in that age group. People are encouraged to be irresponsible well into their 30's.
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LOL what? Every single slippery slope argument over the past 50 years has been proven true.
I could rephrase your response with mine.
When I see someone dismiss "the slippery slope" argument, I can't take them seriously. This level of conditioning is a waste of time.
Both Apple and Google offer the ability to download what they have on you.
I check Google yearly to see what they have and what settings I want to purge of data or turn off. This includes a security review and verification. I’ve turned off things like tracking (maps), targeted ads, etc…
I have never checked Apple before now - didn’t know they had that option. So I went onto the privacy.apple.com website and chose the largest download size of what Apple has on my (Apple ID). It is huge. There is literally everything. Map tracking to (apparently) sites I visit, purchases, devices, etc. It is going to take me a long time to get through it.
Here is the meat of the email they send. You can only open on a pc or mb.
Ok, so here's a non-slippery slope point. I REJECT the premise of my device actively searching for content and attempting to report me. I don't care what it's looking for, I don't want a device that does this, FOR ANY REASON.
Apple sells devices and services based on trust. We can't verify a thing they do or don't do, but they say to trust them. How can I when they flat out say that they don't trust their users and that they are going to treat all of us like we're hiding stuff? There are very good reasons why the likes of Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have not crossed the threshold and searched for stuff on-device. I just can't believe it was Apple of all companies to have the gall to do it. I figured it would've been Amazon, who by the way admitted that Echo devices are always recording when they were handed a subpoena for a murder investigation.
There are a number of approaches Apple could've taken. The way I would do it is to not touch the device, E2E encrypt everything that goes to iCloud, but scan content that is being shared to other people, as that requires the shared content to lose E2E encryption and therefore is able to be checked by Apple. And yes, the way Apple handles the small portion of E2E encrypted iCloud content, it is still possible to view your data in a browser if they would ask for device passcodes once you pass login and 2FA. They ask for passcodes of your other devices when setting a new one up in order for that device to read the E2EE content (set up a new iPad and it will ask for your iPhone passcode so it can read Keychain data).
Imagine if it was Tesla putting software on their cars that counts the number of vehicle law infractions, not saying how many it takes for them to report you, but once you violate traffic laws enough times, you get the police called on you. While the intent may be good (make the roads safer), there are a number of times where I have to break the speed limit, accelerate or brake hard, or run through a light that just turned red in order to avoid a collision. But because I (hypothetically) drive a Tesla, I'm the one that gets reported after a while because the other driver is not driving a Tesla. The original intent may be good, but it will mar the record of diligent drivers at some point once these incidents reach the threshold. Or, it could be simple enough that the car picks up a 25 MPH speed limit sign from a road that splits off from the one actually traveled. The road traveled has a 40 MPH speed limit sign, but the car sees the 25 MPH sign, and every time you drive past, it counts a violation of 15 MPH over the speed limit. After about a month of ownership, you start either getting pulled over or get tickets in the mail. "Yes, but how often could this occur?", you might ask. Well, my boss drives a Tesla, and within 1,000 feet of my workplace, there is just this scenario, and more often than not, the car reads the 25 MPH sign (tells you right on the dashboard). If Autopilot is engaged, it suddenly slows down and drives considerably under the speed limit until the next sign (which says 40 MPH). So now, if left alone, the car is thinking that it is abiding the law and driving the speed limit of 25 MPH, when in reality it is impeding traffic on a 40 MPH road. So, a prudent driver sees the car's mistake, disengages Autopilot and accelerates back to 40 MPH. After about a month of this, the driver is in trouble because the car repeatedly reported driving 40 MPH in a 25 MPH zone. And like a real traffic camera ticket that a family member received, your choices are pay it and nothing bad happens, or appeal it (even if you win) and get points against your driver's license. This wouldn't be any slippery slope argument, this would be a day 1 problem.
By the way, that ticket showed them driving past a 35 MPH speed limit sign, recorded them driving 35 MPH, but says the speed limit is 25 MPH. Pay it or else.
He’s making the mistake of assuming the logical fallacy of ‘slippery slope’ is being used; it’s not. What we’re discussing is the tendency for authority/tools granted to law enforcement (on in this case, a de facto arm of it) to be abused and extended to further invade privacy or erode Constitutionally-protected freedoms/rights.
I imagine I’ll be around to call out the stupidity for a long time…. It would be easy to just blame Apple but it’s apples users that are allowing this… if all the users said no then this simply would have ended weeks ago. You lost your privacy because you gave it up
We didn’t lose anything. Everything is exactly the same for me. I’ll still store photos on iCloud and I’ll still have 100% privacy. Prove me wrong. I’m not wrong. None of my photos will be flagged for CSAM, let alone 30 of them. That’s nearly impossible. So I’ll be fine. You’ll be missing out all because you were a little scared about 1 in a trillion.
And you’ll know that for sure?
My data will be more private than yours as a result of this since I will no longer use cloud services and definitely not iCloud. Try to access data on a computer that has the power physically cut 95% of the time, and upload speeds so bad that I’ll know if something’s up.
I’m not missing out on anything except uncertainty. I’m taking back control of my devices and data.
Yup. I have nothing to worry about. Even if 30 photos of my cats sleeping somehow make it to the second server-side perceptual hash check, they won't pass that one, so Apple still won't see my photos.
I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion, but go ahead, leave Apple, stop using their services and remove yourself from this forum.
Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying my iPhone the same as I always have.
HomeKit was, I think, the first to go. Only things in it were the Lutron Caséta lighting and Rachio irrigation systems. All it was really useful for was "Hey, Siri" control, and that was always erratic to non-functional via my Watch, anyway. So no big loss.
I'm down to 1GB
Never used it, thank heavens.
I expect my iPhone SE (2020) to eventually be replaced with a Pixel 5a.
I loved mine. Not so much anymore. I'm wearing it again, but, as soon as I find a watch I like I'll sell it.
Still using the AirPods (non-Pro). Almost bit on the Pro. Now very glad I did not. Thinking of picking up a pair of the Anker AirPod-like earbuds.
I mostly use Signal.
Hmmm... I'm going to have to look into that. Thanks for the heads up!I went on Privacy.Apple.Com and did the big request for what data Apple has on me.
HOLY MOUNTAINOUS MOLEHILLS BATMAN!!!!
Apple has more info on me than Google!
It's already in the description of the process, no? A thumbnail gets sent to somebody.
That's what we're already using, so we'll just stick with it.
Tell me about it. I really don't care to build computers any more, and I'd really been looking forward to how Macs for the desktops would have integrated with all the other Apple stuff we had already.
I'll tell you this: I'm damn glad Apple announced this when they did. My annoyance with them doing this after I bought a Mac desktop, much less two, would've been orders-of-magnitude greater.
I imagine they're hoping if they keep their yaps shut people will forget about what's coming.
From my PoV there are no advantages that can outweigh having spyware on my devices.
I will not be recommending them at all. That includes, though we'll probably keep ours, Apple TV. I no longer regard Apple as trustworthy. Or at least no more trustworthy than Google or Amazon.
Slippery slope isn't a logical, or formal, fallacy, anyway. It's an informal fallacy. As I noted in another thread:
Logical fallacies are apparent, or inarguable, because they clearly consist of flawed logic. E.g.: When the cock crows the sun rises, therefore the cock crowing causes the sun to rise. (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc [this, therefore because of this], logical.) Informal fallacies may be arguable, because their truth, or lack thereof, depend upon whether or not there's been a misuse of language or evidence.
A slippery slope argument isn't always fallacious because labeling it as such begs the question. To wit: It presumes the predicted possible outcomes of the proposed action are in fact entirely unlikely. (In the instant case I'd submit they are not.)
That seems incorrect to me, from what I believe I understand of the process Apple will use. ICBW.
He has faith. You can't argue with faith.
That’s just a lie your telling yourself, once this is baked in to ios you will never know what they are scanning for, csam was just a Trojan horse to make people accept it. If you think this is still about protecting children then you have been duped…. But your not alone, as I said you gave it up by choice
I believe people will be picking this apart. If anything changes, it will be big news.
Also, I don't believe I'm the one being duped. I trusted Apple before and I still trust them now. They haven't done anything that breaks that trust for me. Even this. They came out and said exactly what they're doing and they're being transparent about it. I would rather it be done on device as it's more secure that way.
Anyways, I'll continue to enjoy my Apple devices (not like anything out there is better anyway). If I was truly worried, I'd do something about it, but I'm not worried in the slightest.
When you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear. I don't even lock my car because there's nothing in it that can be stolen and I'd rather not have a broken window for no reason.
Well, good luck. I’m relatively new to iCloud (had it turned off up until lockdown, where I used it to consolidate and organize my files and photos), so leaving isn’t too much. Just sucks that I got the family used to voice control for the lights.
Wow, that does suck. What are they gonna do now, use their hands?
This is one area where Apple has been “too silent”.
What I have been learning about hashes (crash course due to this issue) says that this “trick” would work. Unless Apple is leveraging an AI that does facial scanning on device for other reasons.
Then again, I am new to what can be done with hash functionality.
One aspect I think may of the “This is good!” camp have lost site of; Apple is ALWAYS looking at the ROI.
Where is the ROI for this?
Where is the ROI for this?
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