Windows 11

[pshufd]

You mean Microsoft making a deal with big companies like HP, Acer, Dell, Gateway and Lenovo that Microsoft take cut out of the sales of new computers sold? So if you by new $1,000 HP computer Microsoft will take cut out of the sales? And both Microsoft and HP will be happy.

Microsoft gets license revenue from OEMs that well windows computers. They are get a cut of sales. They would benefit from new sales without having to bother to make deals from the OEMs.

 

[09872738]

What if Intel informed MS that they plan to get rid of legacy stuff in upcoming processors to be able to better keep up with ASi processors?

 

[pshufd]

What if Intel informed MS that they plan to get rid of legacy stuff in upcoming processors to be able to better keep up with ASi processors?

There's likely still 32-bit stuff in Windows. I think that the better approach would be similar to AAPL. Announce it in the operating system before you get rid of it.

 

[09872738]

There's likely still 32-bit stuff in Windows. I think that the better approach would be similar to AAPL. Announce it in the operating system before you get rid of it.

True. Still the move smells a bit like cutting stuff on purpose. Otherwise the restrictions would just be stupid

 

[diamond.g]

There's likely still 32-bit stuff in Windows. I think that the better approach would be similar to AAPL. Announce it in the operating system before you get rid of it.

Task Manager will show you the Platform (32/64 Bit) and what Operating System Context (apps that run as if they are on older versions of Windows). Also if you add in the image path name you can see where stuff is running from. I would wager that all the native Windows stuff (not Office or 3rd party things or browsers) are being ran out of System 32, which contrary to the name is all 64-bit binaries.

 

[pshufd]

True. Still the move smells a bit like cutting stuff on purpose. Otherwise the restrictions would just be stupid

I was annoyed when Apple announced it but I haven't really lost anything. I stayed on Mojave just to be sure that I could run any 32-bit programs and am running M1 since last week and I have not found anything so far that doesn't have a 64-bit version. There are still some programs that I haven't brought over (LaTeX is one of them as are some old video transcoding programs) but I'm pretty sure that I can find alternatives if they don't support AS.

I still have my old Intel MacBook Pros and will keep one around. I am not sure whether to keep two of them or not. They are handy to have around in case someone I know needs to borrow a laptop for a while. One is loaned out to my son as his work system has bloated battery and his office is taking a while to determine what to replace it with. So he's been using my 2014 for the past two weeks. It's part of the reason I ordered an M1.

I understand that most other people did this with the Catalina upgrade as they were forced to do it but there's always the option to stay on old operating systems on older Intel equipment.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

Honestly, I'm still annoyed that when I got a Mac Plus I couldn't run Daleks any more.
That's nearly 40 years of annoyance. I think I need to get out more...

 

[pshufd]

Honestly, I'm still annoyed that when I got a Mac Plus I couldn't run Daleks any more.
That's nearly 40 years of annoyance. I think I need to get out more...

I used an Apple 2 a long time ago. Also used the Lisa (my company made a software product for the Apple 2 and ported it to the Lisa. I used a Mac+ for University and to work remotely for a while. I never did play with the Apple SBC though. The oldest computer I have is from the late 1970s and it's on my table and still works.

 

[amgff84]

That is a big conspiracy that Microsoft is working with OEMs just to get everyone to get new computers for profit.

I'd be more willing to accept that the TPM requirements are for licensing purposes. Maybe to keep tighter control on that, which is something they have been trying for years. I am willing to bet that they will loosen up and as long as the system has TPM 2.0, you'll be able to install Windows 11. I bet they want to tie one license to one chip. That's my conspiracy lol.

 

[pshufd]

I'd be more willing to accept that the TPM requirements are for licensing purposes. Maybe to keep tighter control on that, which is something they have been trying for years. I am willing to bet that they will loosen up and as long as the system has TPM 2.0, you'll be able to install Windows 11. I bet they want to tie one license to one chip. That's my conspiracy lol.

I thought that they were getting away from that and making more on services. Maybe they don't know exactly what they are doing.

 

[raqball]

I am willing to bet that they will loosen up and as long as the system has TPM 2.0, you'll be able to install Windows 11.

If they don't then I am going to guess they'll extend Win 10 support past the current 2025 deadline..

 

[maflynn]

I finally took the plunge and installed Windows 11 on my Razer. I'll be playing with this as the day progresses, and seeing what does and does not run. I'm really curious to see if I'll have issues with Steam and other apps that I rely on with my Razer 🙂

 

[Slartibart]

There are still some programs that I haven't brought over (LaTeX is one of them as are some old video transcoding programs) but I'm pretty sure that I can find alternatives if they don't support AS.

MacTeX runs natively on AS.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

I have been playing with Windows 11, both running off my HDD under Bootcamp and running under WinToUSB on a SSD.
I have been exploring why some things, especially the Atom editor and LaTeX (via TeXLive) run so slowly. It turns out that Windows Defender is examining everything that is being opened and written. If I turn Defender off, compiling a particular document goes from 32 seconds down to 20. Even so, compiling the same document under Linux and macOS only takes 8~10 seconds, but that's a different problem.
I can understand why Defender would scan everything you download from the Internet, but why the flim-flam does it have to scan a file you have just created and written? It seems that every time a file is opened and every time a file is saved, Defender scans it.
I know I can create an exemption for my Documents folder, but I shouldn't have to.

 

[maflynn]

So far, I'm impressed with win11, its a tad slower, but that's to be expected. I was disappointed to see the existence of the control panel. While I find what's in the control panel to be essential to my usage, having a settings app and control panel with overlapping functionality is confusing at best.

It turns out that Windows Defender is examining everything that is being opened and written

I hadn't noticed that, but I'll take a close look and see if that's occurring on my machine

 

[diamond.g]

So far, I'm impressed with win11, its a tad slower, but that's to be expected. I was disappointed to see the existence of the control panel. While I find what's in the control panel to be essential to my usage, having a settings app and control panel with overlapping functionality is confusing at best.



I hadn't noticed that, but I'll take a close look and see if that's occurring on my machine

On Access Scans is something every AV does, not sure why Defender would be different.

I also suspect the storage drivers Apple provides in bootcamp aren't that great, making something like Defender scans noticeable.

 

[maflynn]

On Access Scans is something every AV does, not sure why Defender would be different.

No, but if its causing significant performance degradation

 

[diamond.g]

No, but if its causing significant performance degradation

I have been playing with Windows 11, both running off my HDD under Bootcamp and running under WinToUSB on a SSD.
I have been exploring why some things, especially the Atom editor and LaTeX (via TeXLive) run so slowly. It turns out that Windows Defender is examining everything that is being opened and written. If I turn Defender off, compiling a particular document goes from 32 seconds down to 20. Even so, compiling the same document under Linux and macOS only takes 8~10 seconds, but that's a different problem.
I can understand why Defender would scan everything you download from the Internet, but why the flim-flam does it have to scan a file you have just created and written? It seems that every time a file is opened and every time a file is saved, Defender scans it.
I know I can create an exemption for my Documents folder, but I shouldn't have to.

Can we get more info on how you have 11 installed? Also when you are running your compile can you look at the Average Response Time of the disk in task managers performance tab? With a SSD it should never get above 10ms. I am running a full file scan and the highest I have seen so far while using the system is 6ms. My CPU usage has gone through the roof though...

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

I installed Windows on my iMac using Bootcamp, and a TPM-free version of Windows 11. Because it is a Fusion Drive, Bootcamp Assistant only partitions and installs on the HDD part.

texlive.iso was downloaded from a CTAN site
The disk image was mounted and TexLive installed via the install-tl-windows.bat file, run as Administrator. This can take up to 40 minutes if you turn Windows Defender off, and 1 1/2 hours if you leave it on.

I then found and extracted the lshort english file to my home directory. Currently in
C:\texlive\2021\texmf-dist\doc\latex\lshort-english

I opened CMD and CD'd to lshort-6.x\src and ran latexmk -xelatex lshort.tex
To clear the files to run again, run latexmk -C

While it is running, Antimalware Service Executable wakes up and takes up from 5% to 25% of CPU time.

Apart from Average Response Time (below) there is little difference running this on a HDD or SSD.

Average Response Time 2 ~ 20 ms, occasionally peaking at 40 ms. On a SSD it was 0.2~0.8 ms
Write Speed 0.5 ~ 1.5 MB/s

I timed the process by running latexmk -xelatex lshort.tex > NUL and a stopwatch and regularly get 22 seconds.

I find using LaTeX as a test of responsiveness and performance is useful, as it involves accessing many files (to read and write) and running many processes.

Interestingly, I installed Oracle Virtualbox in my Windows 11, and Ubuntu within that. Installing TeXLive and compiling the same document took 16 seconds, vs 22 seconds under Windows.

 

[LordVic]

I think the TPM 2.0 thing is going to backfire spectacularly.

it's like Vista all over again with setting a very high barrier of entry for hardware that would require a lot of people purchasing new hardware components just to get into win11.

That spelled disaster for Windows Vista. I think it'll be similar in win11.

TPM and even TPM2 is not always standard features on every motherboard. Even higher end ones. my X570 PRO board from ASUS only has aTPM header. it's a new board on the latest chipset.

I'm NOT replacing it for win11. the ask is absolutely insanity from Microsoft's part.

at work, I am deploying users space windows via VMWare Horizons.. It does NOT support TPM2... that meanss I cannot even deploy win11 in my corporate environment.

Seriously, we all thought Microsoft hda issues under Ballmer. But the guy at least slowed things down and made sure that the back end released to corporate environment was usable and configurable. Satya Nadella quite frankly has completely ignored us in favour of "flashy" consumerism. I actually MISS Ballmer's microsoft. I don't think Microsoft is going to get their head BACK in the game until he's gone and a CEO who isn't just trying to copy Apple's consumer focus.

 

[LordVic]

What Microsoft should do is just tell people and business that in 10 years we are going to do what Apple is doing and make OS from the ground up and force all all app developers to do the same.

And if you want to run old software you not going to have internet so we don't need to worry about malware.

And they would immediately be kicked out of just about every enterprise.

problem is, (not microsoft's fault, but they have to develop for it). Enterprise has legacy custom proprietary softwares that aren't easy to replace.

I'm IT manager at a bank. Our core banking application is built around 20+ year old proprietary database technology and Application code. It requires Win32 runtimes to work.

While I would love to migrate to a newer back end. Changing a banks centralized processing application stack is a multi-year, multi million (if not billion) dollar operation.

if Win10 is the end of the line for running these applications and microsoft cuts us off with win11. Than Microsoft gets cut off from us. We end with Win10. And they have no right to then block us from doing work by disabling networking.

Honestly, this whole win11 debacle is already got me starting the project work to migrate the user space to Ubuntu. For the win32 stuff, I'll deploy via RDS for the time being until the back end system can be changed.

But Microsoft is REALLY starting to piss off system administrators.

 

[09872738]

Honestly, this whole win11 debacle is already got me starting the project work to migrate the user space to Ubuntu. For the win32 stuff, I'll deploy via RDS for the time being until the back end system can be changed.

But Microsoft is REALLY starting to piss off system administrators.

Yupp. Win 11 is going to cut off a lot of hardware; maybe, just maybe, once Win 10 support ends around 2025 we‘ll finally see the year of the Linux Desktop, courtesy Microsoft Corporation 😁

 

[ian87w]

I think the TPM 2.0 thing is going to backfire spectacularly.

it's like Vista all over again with setting a very high barrier of entry for hardware that would require a lot of people purchasing new hardware components just to get into win11.

That spelled disaster for Windows Vista. I think it'll be similar in win11.

TPM and even TPM2 is not always standard features on every motherboard. Even higher end ones. my X570 PRO board from ASUS only has aTPM header. it's a new board on the latest chipset.

I'm NOT replacing it for win11. the ask is absolutely insanity from Microsoft's part.

at work, I am deploying users space windows via VMWare Horizons.. It does NOT support TPM2... that meanss I cannot even deploy win11 in my corporate environment.

Seriously, we all thought Microsoft hda issues under Ballmer. But the guy at least slowed things down and made sure that the back end released to corporate environment was usable and configurable. Satya Nadella quite frankly has completely ignored us in favour of "flashy" consumerism. I actually MISS Ballmer's microsoft. I don't think Microsoft is going to get their head BACK in the game until he's gone and a CEO who isn't just trying to copy Apple's consumer focus.

This is imo worse than Vista. Windows Vista's issue was simply performance, but the minimum requirements was not "excessive." The biggest issue was old intel integrated GPUs not supporting Aero, resulting in the desktop looking kinda bleh. 😀

Windows 11 is worse, is that Microsoft explicitly cut off any processors older than 2018, meaning plenty of hardware that would normally able to run the OS won't be able to, simply due to arbitrary processor restriction (akin to what Apple has been doing).

And you are correct, the simple reason here is to force many people to upgrade their PCs. We can watch the sales of new PCs by the end of this year, when many people would simply feel FOMO, missing out on the new shiny Windows 11. The catch is, if Microsoft would start this track of dropping processor support willy nilly, some people might think to just get a Mac.

I do disagree about Ballmer. He is toxic, imo. Current Microsoft overall has been quite great, being more open and supportive of other platforms. I have posted my own theory behind Windows 11 in another thread, which is imo is Microsoft's version of "Big Sur," aka the telltale sign of transition.

 

[ian87w]

And they would immediately be kicked out of just about every enterprise.

problem is, (not microsoft's fault, but they have to develop for it). Enterprise has legacy custom proprietary softwares that aren't easy to replace.

I'm IT manager at a bank. Our core banking application is built around 20+ year old proprietary database technology and Application code. It requires Win32 runtimes to work.

While I would love to migrate to a newer back end. Changing a banks centralized processing application stack is a multi-year, multi million (if not billion) dollar operation.

if Win10 is the end of the line for running these applications and microsoft cuts us off with win11. Than Microsoft gets cut off from us. We end with Win10. And they have no right to then block us from doing work by disabling networking.

Honestly, this whole win11 debacle is already got me starting the project work to migrate the user space to Ubuntu. For the win32 stuff, I'll deploy via RDS for the time being until the back end system can be changed.

But Microsoft is REALLY starting to piss off system administrators.

Windows LTSC has different lifecycle. The 2019 Windows 10 LTSC will be supported until 2029. So imo enterprise is not having any issues with Windows 11, aka it's to be ignored. Plenty of time left.

 

[Falhófnir]

This is imo worse than Vista. Windows Vista's issue was simply performance, but the minimum requirements was not "excessive." The biggest issue was old intel integrated GPUs not supporting Aero, resulting in the desktop looking kinda bleh. 😀

Windows 11 is worse, is that Microsoft explicitly cut off any processors older than 2018, meaning plenty of hardware that would normally able to run the OS won't be able to, simply due to arbitrary processor restriction (akin to what Apple has been doing).

And you are correct, the simple reason here is to force many people to upgrade their PCs. We can watch the sales of new PCs by the end of this year, when many people would simply feel FOMO, missing out on the new shiny Windows 11. The catch is, if Microsoft would start this track of dropping processor support willy nilly, some people might think to just get a Mac.

I do disagree about Ballmer. He is toxic, imo. Current Microsoft overall has been quite great, being more open and supportive of other platforms. I have posted my own theory behind Windows 11 in another thread, which is imo is Microsoft's version of "Big Sur," aka the telltale sign of transition.

Vista's issue seemed to be the opposite, that it was allowed to run on systems that couldn't handle it properly. We got a new computer with it preloaded, and it was a good experience, most of the complaints seem to have been from those who upgraded older systems. With that in mind, a more restrictive 11 may not be such a bad thing in the short term. It will mean people's initial impressions will be via relatively new and powerful computers, or on a fresh system. As many W10 computers were sold until quite recently with HDDs, the recent surge to SSDs will also have a marked impact on people's impressions. There's nothing really wrong with staying on W10 for a few more years, it's fully supported until near the end of 2025, and not unprecedented for that to be pushed back even further as we get nearer.