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LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,459
Windows LTSC has different lifecycle. The 2019 Windows 10 LTSC will be supported until 2029. So imo enterprise is not having any issues with Windows 11, aka it's to be ignored. Plenty of time left.
I know, but in my industry I'm not technically allowed to leave them on such old version.

I've already gotten my hands wrapped for having legacy win7 devices still on thenetwork (my predecessor i took over for 2 years ago refused to upgrade to win10. Even bought Haswell era computers used to keep using Win7)

I'm having to regularly now send patch reports and upgrade statuses to my regulators.

Microsoft has made my life hell in the last year because of it. And win11 is only adding to it. Covid has also delayed even further my replacement device program since I've had about 8 moonths of lockdown where Branch visits were heavily restricted and my staff were stuck quarantined at home
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
it's like Vista all over again
I can't see how you're drawing that conclusion. Longhorn as it was called for years was MS' attempt to bring major updates to windows, including using SQL server as the file system. They over promised, over hyped and caused the OS to be developed for around 5 1/2 years. In those 5 1/2 years they kept chopping away from the promised feature set until the point where it really didn't have anything major and it was buggy as hell.

Windows 11 is surprisingly stable, feature complete for the most part, and will be available this fall. I see no similarities to Vista.
 
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LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,459
I can't see how you're drawing that conclusion. Longhorn as it was called for years was MS' attempt to bring major updates to windows, including using SQL server as the file system. They over promised, over hyped and caused the OS to be developed for around 5 1/2 years. In those 5 1/2 years they kept chopping away from the promised feature set until the point where it really didn't have anything major and it was buggy as hell.

Windows 11 is surprisingly stable, feature complete for the most part, and will be available this fall. I see no similarities to Vista.

my comparison wasn't meant about the stability / features. More about Microsoft releasing a product with a high barrier for hardware. For vista era the requirements were out of reach of 80% of the computer users. Vista if powered right ran suprisingly well.

That was the only point of my comparison, didn't mean to go into super depth about the OS features and performance itself
 

loby

macrumors 68000
Jul 1, 2010
1,880
1,507
I used to get 'smarter' reps over the phone by doing a decent impression of Roy D Mercer. "Y'all givin' me the runaround here!"

I do miss the days of coherent American support. These days those poor Indians can't work outside their script, but a few comments about 'I'm gonna whoop your ***' tends to eventually make them escalate further up the chain.

I'm so sick of being treated like some moron who can't read a manual and have to be repeatedly asked to 'turn it off and back on again' as if that wasn't my first attempt at fixing the darned thing! Obviously these days I only phone support once I've tried all that level 1 crap!

Tech today is made for idiots, treats users like idiots. Smart folks like myself are apparently deemed irrelevant. I remember the uninformative errors Windows 8 used to have, from the frowny face BSoD to the 'this app doesn't work'. Diagnosing was easier when I could plug in hexadecimals into Google. The 'masses' or 'mainstream' idiots today have made life frustrating for this old curmudgeon.
Yeah...I get tired of calling support and then I am the one who helps them "fix it" and tell them what to do..
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,407
2,640
OBX
I think the TPM 2.0 thing is going to backfire spectacularly.

it's like Vista all over again with setting a very high barrier of entry for hardware that would require a lot of people purchasing new hardware components just to get into win11.

That spelled disaster for Windows Vista. I think it'll be similar in win11.

TPM and even TPM2 is not always standard features on every motherboard. Even higher end ones. my X570 PRO board from ASUS only has aTPM header. it's a new board on the latest chipset.

I'm NOT replacing it for win11. the ask is absolutely insanity from Microsoft's part.

at work, I am deploying users space windows via VMWare Horizons.. It does NOT support TPM2... that meanss I cannot even deploy win11 in my corporate environment.

Seriously, we all thought Microsoft hda issues under Ballmer. But the guy at least slowed things down and made sure that the back end released to corporate environment was usable and configurable. Satya Nadella quite frankly has completely ignored us in favour of "flashy" consumerism. I actually MISS Ballmer's microsoft. I don't think Microsoft is going to get their head BACK in the game until he's gone and a CEO who isn't just trying to copy Apple's consumer focus.
Your x570 board should have fTPM support via your CPU. You don't need an actual TPM chip. Really any computer from 2016 on should have CPU enabled TPM2.0 support.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,459
Your x570 board should have fTPM support via your CPU. You don't need an actual TPM chip. Really any computer from 2016 on should have CPU enabled TPM2.0 support.

Good to know.

when I checked the boards configuration options, it listed "1 x SPI TPM header" and in fine print much lower "tpm module sold seperately"

I'll double check at home to see what the Ryzen CPU's show up as.

for anyone else who wants to check within windows. WIN-R and run tpm.msc. it will give you the TPM control panel and version number.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Your x570 board should have fTPM support via your CPU.
Yep, my Giganyte Aorus MB's bios had a setting for fTPM which was disabled by default

I opted to load win11 on my Razer and not my desktop, though its been so solid that I may very well
 

loby

macrumors 68000
Jul 1, 2010
1,880
1,507
I know, but in my industry I'm not technically allowed to leave them on such old version.

I've already gotten my hands wrapped for having legacy win7 devices still on thenetwork (my predecessor i took over for 2 years ago refused to upgrade to win10. Even bought Haswell era computers used to keep using Win7)

I'm having to regularly now send patch reports and upgrade statuses to my regulators.

Microsoft has made my life hell in the last year because of it. And win11 is only adding to it. Covid has also delayed even further my replacement device program since I've had about 8 moonths of lockdown where Branch visits were heavily restricted and my staff were stuck quarantined at home
I feel for you.

Nothing is new and the challenges are the same overall or similar during tech transitions. Remote Desktop apps are your friend in these conditions, but with lockdown challenges it makes it hard to physically go and install even those apps. During initial deployment, preinstalling Remote Desktop etc. would relief some grief.

But as usual stakeholders always lean on not upgrading to save costs, so many late night and little sleep for Admins to do unnecessary monitoring and patch reports etc. as it becomes most of the day job.

Microsoft was NEVER helpful and probably never will be intentionally when all they want is for you and your company to upgrade ($). They intentionally make it difficult so companies will give in eventually…Part of their business machine…but the Admins or System Engineers etc. who are the ones to keep everything going always suffer or pull their hair out dealing with these issues with their own company managers along with Microsoft.. this should be in the job description when applying: little computing..many reporting..politics…including headaches dealing with Microsoft. Part of the salary Or benefits should include having either a bottle of booze given once per week; company supplies of aspirin available, and hair dye maintenance supplies as early age grey hair challenges will come.

oh..the memories. Glad those days are gone for me ;)
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,133
14,565
New Hampshire
I feel for you.

Nothing is new and the challenges are the same overall or similar during tech transitions. Remote Desktop apps are your friend in these conditions, but with lockdown challenges it makes it hard to physically go and install even those apps. During initial deployment, preinstalling Remote Desktop etc. would relief some grief.

But as usual stakeholders always lean on not upgrading to save costs, so many late night and little sleep for Admins to do unnecessary monitoring and patch reports etc. as it becomes most of the day job.

Microsoft was NEVER helpful and probably never will be intentionally when all they want is for you and your company to upgrade ($). They intentionally make it difficult so companies will give in eventually…Part of their business machine…but the Admins or System Engineers etc. who are the ones to keep everything going always suffer or pull their hair out dealing with these issues with their own company managers along with Microsoft.. this should be in the job description when applying: little computing..many reporting..politics…including headaches dealing with Microsoft. Part of the salary Or benefits should include having either a bottle of booze given once per week; company supplies of aspirin available, and hair dye maintenance supplies as early age grey hair challenges will come.

oh..the memories. Glad those days are gone for me ;)

My former workplace sent out regular notices on W7 desupport which a lot of people ignored. Then they started sending out notices that W7 systems would be kicked off the network after a certain date and many ignored it up to a few weeks before the date. One of my coworkers wound up getting kicked off the network. A lot of employees really hate IT change.

It creates a huge demand for changeovers too. I saw lots local ads for IT workers to come in on nights or weekends to update operating systems and application software in offices. I've never done one of those but it sounds like it would be fun.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,407
2,640
OBX
My former workplace sent out regular notices on W7 desupport which a lot of people ignored. Then they started sending out notices that W7 systems would be kicked off the network after a certain date and many ignored it up to a few weeks before the date. One of my coworkers wound up getting kicked off the network. A lot of employees really hate IT change.

It creates a huge demand for changeovers too. I saw lots local ads for IT workers to come in on nights or weekends to update operating systems and application software in offices. I've never done one of those but it sounds like it would be fun.
Swing shift IT is the best shift.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,403
13,287
where hip is spoken
Vista's issue seemed to be the opposite, that it was allowed to run on systems that couldn't handle it properly. We got a new computer with it preloaded, and it was a good experience, most of the complaints seem to have been from those who upgraded older systems. With that in mind, a more restrictive 11 may not be such a bad thing in the short term. It will mean people's initial impressions will be via relatively new and powerful computers, or on a fresh system. As many W10 computers were sold until quite recently with HDDs, the recent surge to SSDs will also have a marked impact on people's impressions. There's nothing really wrong with staying on W10 for a few more years, it's fully supported until near the end of 2025, and not unprecedented for that to be pushed back even further as we get nearer.
Thank you. This is the correct and proper take on it.
 
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loby

macrumors 68000
Jul 1, 2010
1,880
1,507
My former workplace sent out regular notices on W7 desupport which a lot of people ignored. Then they started sending out notices that W7 systems would be kicked off the network after a certain date and many ignored it up to a few weeks before the date. One of my coworkers wound up getting kicked off the network. A lot of employees really hate IT change.

It creates a huge demand for changeovers too. I saw lots local ads for IT workers to come in on nights or weekends to update operating systems and application software in offices. I've never done one of those but it sounds like it would be fun.
Yes, many companies contract personal to do it quickly if they have a large company and their few Admins can’t take care of it in one night. I did that type of stuff back in Y2K days if anyone remembers that interesting time.

same old story, just different time. Probably why hackers are so good right now. They know the behaviors of users, especially companies either laziness or not wanting to spend the money to upgrade or the lost of down times to make sure they are secure or updated.

I remember way back Microsoft was hit hard by a hacker on their own servers all because an admin was lazy and did not apply a patch that their own company just told the world to apply. Happens all the time and hackers and ransom ware groups know these typical behaviors and takes advantage of it. Nothing is new.
 

thefriendshipmachine

macrumors 6502
Apr 14, 2017
308
215
Windows 11 on my Surface Pro X makes me want to throw my iPad in the garbage. The iPad is a kindle in comparison to what the Surface is now capable of with full Windows with a touch friendly UI.
 
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MiniApple

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2020
360
457
Windows 11 on my Surface Pro X makes me want to throw my iPad in the garbage. The iPad is a kindle in comparison to what the Surface is now capable of with full Windows with a touch friendly UI.
Glad to hear from multiple people that touch has considerably improved.
ARM64EC should help as well performance/efficency-wise.
Hoping for a Surface Go or "smaller" Pro with ARM.
 

thefriendshipmachine

macrumors 6502
Apr 14, 2017
308
215
Glad to hear from multiple people that touch has considerably improved.
ARM64EC should help as well performance/efficency-wise.
Hoping for a Surface Go or "smaller" Pro with ARM.
The difference is night and day, I'm blown away by it. I honestly didn't expect this from Microsoft at all. The touch typing experience before was cumbersome and so painful that it turned me away from grabbing my SPX over my iPad. But now it's on par with the iPad, or even better because you can customize the theme and also toggle between different keyboard layouts with a greater variety than what's available on iOS.
 
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ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,638
Indonesia
Your x570 board should have fTPM support via your CPU. You don't need an actual TPM chip. Really any computer from 2016 on should have CPU enabled TPM2.0 support.
The TPM chip requirement is secondary, as Microsoft has already put out a more stringent processor requirement. Windows 11 only supports processors from 2018 (intel 8th gen) or newer.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,407
2,640
OBX
The TPM chip requirement is secondary, as Microsoft has already put out a more stringent processor requirement. Windows 11 only supports processors from 2018 (intel 8th gen) or newer.
And most desktop PC's should allow for CPU upgrades to match the required CPU. Laptops are kinda screwed though.
 

ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,638
Indonesia
And most desktop PC's should allow for CPU upgrades to match the required CPU. Laptops are kinda screwed though.
Considering majority of computer users are laptops, its really a very annoying move from Microsoft. I'm sure there's no technical reason to impose such limitations, other than to make OEMs happy that they will see large numbers of upgraders at the end of the year.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,407
2,640
OBX
Considering majority of computer users are laptops, its really a very annoying move from Microsoft. I'm sure there's no technical reason to impose such limitations, other than to make OEMs happy that they will see large numbers of upgraders at the end of the year.
Yes it is annoying. I guess we have to wait and see if Windows 11 is really worth the upgrade from 10, with respects to buying a whole new computer just to run it. As a gamer the only feature 11 has that may make it worthwhile is DirectStorage, but without any games to show it off (I don't think any XSX/XSS games are using it yet) it is kind of a hard sell.
 

thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,234
3,483
Pennsylvania
And most desktop PC's should allow for CPU upgrades to match the required CPU. Laptops are kinda screwed though.
Not necessarily. Any Ryzen 1 CPU can be upgraded to a Ryzen 3rd gen, but Intel CPUs keep the same socket for only 2 generations, so a 7th gen CPU might work, but even a 6th generation or below can't be upgraded without a new motherboard, which might require new RAM too.
 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,133
14,565
New Hampshire
Not necessarily. Any Ryzen 1 CPU can be upgraded to a Ryzen 3rd gen, but Intel CPUs keep the same socket for only 2 generations, so a 7th gen CPU might work, but even a 6th generation or below can't be upgraded without a new motherboard, which might require new RAM too.

I think that this is to deal with higher core counts in CPUs these days. My 490Z can handle 10th gen and 11th gen Intel CPUs but I think that some features are missing if I use an 11th gen. These days it's just easier to assume that you'll have to replace the motherboard with the CPU. Motherboards are getting better along with CPUs making it worthwhile if you have the budget for it.

I would not mind upgrading my motherboard and CPU if Intel comes out with a 10nm desktop chip as I'm impressed with their 11th gen - but their 11th gen is only mobile. I'd also like to be able to put up to 256 GB of RAM in it.

I think that they should be able to get back to 10 cores when they go to 10nm. Maybe even 12.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,133
14,565
New Hampshire
Intel's roadmap isn't that bad, especially if leaving x86 is difficult. I am going to consider an upgrade to Alder Lake (desktop) when it comes out if there are significant performance improvements. I plan to use Windows alongside an M1X system on my desktop, at least until the software that I need is ported natively to M1. Zen4 is also a possibility but we'll see how supply goes. It's been a lot easier getting Intel parts for some time now.

From Tom's Hardware:

Screen Shot 2021-07-12 at 9.26.09 AM.png
 

Southernboyj

macrumors 68000
Mar 8, 2012
1,694
69
Mobile, AL
Windows 11 on my Surface Pro X makes me want to throw my iPad in the garbage. The iPad is a kindle in comparison to what the Surface is now capable of with full Windows with a touch friendly UI.

If you use Firefox does it have swipe forward and backward gestures in tablet mode? I know Edge has these gestures but I prefer not to use Edge for privacy reasons.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,459
If you use Firefox does it have swipe forward and backward gestures in tablet mode? I know Edge has these gestures but I prefer not to use Edge for privacy reasons.

last time I used firefox on touch, it was buggy. you have to do some tweaking to get it to properly understand touch gestures sometimes.
 
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