Won’t this replace vision pro for a lot of you?

[G5isAlive]

I don't think they are saying the Visor does more. It seems to me they think AVP and Visor does the same thing, that is, run 2D apps in 3D space, but Visor does it for a lower price.

Now, I don't think having multiple Mac/PC/iPad/other devices screen floating in virtual space is quite the same as having multiple Apps floating around you, but I can understand why someone might not appreciate the difference.

Thanks, that is where this thread seemed to have started, sorry if I misinterpreted.

One of the reasons I get bogged down is we can agree the Quest 2 does some of the same things, but at a cheaper price, and then point out other ways that make the Quest 2 different, because the quest 2 is real. But to suggest the Visor does the same thing... implies at the same quality level, latency, etc, and we have nothing to base that on other than marketing material, and when they insist multiple apps floating around versus screens is somehow inferior makes me question all their other assumptions.

And we already know the Visor doesnt do the same thing but at a cheaper cost. The visor experience is not as portable because it is tethered to another device. So then, it's well, same thing when tethered, and at what point are we comparing apples to oranges? two different types of devices?

There is an inherent bias that I just dont agree with. But I did get interested enough to dive into the Immersed Discord forum to see when the promised Immersed AVP app would be available... and lets just say, they keep finding difficulties so as to delay the beta release. And that is software. Something they know. With that they are taking a short cut, using a development environment not optimized for the AVP. Are they doing better with hardware? And then I found out the Immersed AVP app has a design choice that makes me question whether I want to use it, the same bias that is being shown here, that if I could mirror my Mac screens, why would I want to also use AVP Apps (iPad origin or otherwise). You can't. The Immersed App is designed to take over the whole AVP screen. No apps allowed, essentially turning my AVP into a visor.

I agree there is plenty of room in the universe for multiple approaches and price points. But the thread asks the question, will this replace my AVP? Not likely. Will it be more accessible at the lower price point so that others look over its limits? Probably. Not sure what the intersection of the two target customer bases are. My guess is not large.

 

[G5isAlive]

What if you get something in this form factor, and Vision OS. I.e. it can mirror your mac, and run iPad apps, both achievable in Visor’s form factor.

My apologies if I misinterpret, are you saying the Vision can mirror at the same time my Mac and my iPad? and that I can place screens or windows anywhere I want? I really am not following you here. From what I read on the Immersed discord channel and their marketing web site, the vision supports one device at a time, and the windows are fixed for me, that it is really emulating screens not apps. Not saying their approach is not valid, but it's just not the same approach at all. Heck for some it sounds better. Certainly more affordable. but not the same.

 

[CrysisDeu]

Thanks, that is where this thread seemed to have started, sorry if I misinterpreted.

One of the reasons I get bogged down is we can agree the Quest 2 does some of the same things, but at a cheaper price, and then point out other ways that make the Quest 2 different, because the quest 2 is real. But to suggest the Visor does the same thing... implies at the same quality level, latency, etc, and we have nothing to base that on other than marketing material, and when they insist multiple apps floating around versus screens is somehow inferior makes me question all their other assumptions.

And we already know the Visor doesnt do the same thing but at a cheaper cost. The visor experience is not as portable because it is tethered to another device. So then, it's well, same thing when tethered, and at what point are we comparing apples to oranges? two different types of devices?

There is an inherent bias that I just dont agree with. But I did get interested enough to dive into the Immersed Discord forum to see when the promised Immersed AVP app would be available... and lets just say, they keep finding difficulties so as to delay the beta release. And that is software. Something they know. With that they are taking a short cut, using a development environment not optimized for the AVP. Are they doing better with hardware? And then I found out the Immersed AVP app has a design choice that makes me question whether I want to use it, the same bias that is being shown here, that if I could mirror my Mac screens, why would I want to also use AVP Apps (iPad origin or otherwise). You can't. The Immersed App is designed to take over the whole AVP screen. No apps allowed, essentially turning my AVP into a visor.

I agree there is plenty of room in the universe for multiple approaches and price points. But the thread asks the question, will this replace my AVP? Not likely. Will it be more accessible at the lower price point so that others look over its limits? Probably. Not sure what the intersection of the two target customer bases are. My guess is not large.

I think this is where the small things Apple did adds up to become the one product that cannot be replaced.
But I still want to ask the same question: if AVP have this form factor and loses the function this hardware won’t be able to support, will you be interested?

 

[CrysisDeu]

My apologies if I misinterpret, are you saying the Vision can mirror at the same time my Mac and my iPad? and that I can place screens or windows anywhere I want? I really am not following you here. From what I read on the Immersed discord channel and their marketing web site, the vision supports one device at a time, and the windows are fixed for me, that it is really emulating screens not apps. Not saying their approach is not valid, but it's just not the same approach at all. Heck for some it sounds better. Certainly more affordable. but not the same.

No I get you. Nailing the software is hard. But if they have this product actually shipped, the rest of window placement are software updates (although they might not do it).
I was wondering on a conceptual level and ignore the actual software implementation. Will this hardware replaces a lot of important things AVP is doing for many ppl

 

[nmart1214]

Lower prices is one thing, the weight and size is the more important factor for me.
There are things AVP can do but this doesn’t. But for the few things I just needed this, I am more willing to wear it rather than AVP

I'm not trying to be abrasive, but I am trying to understand the point of this whole post? You asked the community if the Visor replaces the Vision Pro for them, but you push back on anyone that criticizes why it won't work for them and says they'd rather have a Vision Pro. Now you are getting into what ifs and speculations on things that the Visor and its form factor *could* do, which is just tiring since you are still comparing it to the existing AVP and trying to win people over that way.

It looks to me like you are trying to validate your wants and needs but aren't willing to accept an opposite position. Just buy a Visor and let people who don't want one be happy without making their reasons make sense to you. You've clearly made up your mind and I honestly don't understand the need to sell everyone here on something.

 

[G5isAlive]

Lower prices is one thing, the weight and size is the more important factor for me.
There are things AVP can do but this doesn’t. But for the few things I just needed this, I am more willing to wear it rather than AVP

Have you worn a visor? You are making assumptions that it's going to be better because they tell you it will be. And maybe it will. But in all the pictures it is only the 'stem' version which they admit people use because it looks 'cooler', but that the back strap version is more comfortable. So who really knows, if the stem version is more comfortable or not, or will even stay on your face or not. I can see how if move my head something that weighs even just a couple of hundred of grams could slide around easily if not held in place. No one has published a review that has actually worn one. Unless you are now saying you have

 

[mattspace]

I don't think they are saying the Visor does more. It seems to me they think AVP and Visor does the same thing, that is, run 2D apps in 3D space, but Visor does it for a lower price.

No, people are saying the part of the AVP's capabilities that they're actually interested in - accessing their Mac via virtualised displays, is done in a (potentially) better way by the Visor - it gives them more Mac screens, for less weight, and less cost.

Now, I don't think having multiple Mac/PC/iPad/other devices screen floating in virtual space is quite the same as having multiple Apps floating around you, but I can understand why someone might not appreciate the difference.

Maybe the problem is AVP owners can't quite comprehend that all the VisionOS native stuff is utterly uninteresting to people who want a headset to work with their Mac? They may not want to use VisonOS versions of their Mac apps with data synced via iCloud etc, they just want a headset for their Mac, not a separate headset computer.

 

[CrysisDeu]

I'm not trying to be abrasive, but I am trying to understand the point of this whole post? You asked the community if the Visor replaces the Vision Pro for them, but you push back on anyone that criticizes why it won't work for them and says they'd rather have a Vision Pro. Now you are getting into what ifs and speculations on things that the Visor and its form factor *could* do, which is just tiring since you are still comparing it to the existing AVP and trying to win people over that way.

It looks to me like you are trying to validate your wants and needs but aren't willing to accept an opposite position. Just buy a Visor and let people who don't want one be happy without making their reasons make sense to you. You've clearly made up your mind and I honestly don't understand the need to sell everyone here on something.

Well because I don’t own a hardware company so I can’t develop whatever I want. I saw this and think it might fit my need and many others. Knowing it won’t for you is exactly what I wanted to know. But I want to go into the root of why. You can say iPhone is a must for your life, and Android phones will not be a replacement. Yes, but they are both smartphone that does a lot of things. I am trying to dig into the deeper reasoning of it. In that process, I will argue why Android can be a replacement, but I am not forcing you to think the same

The discussions are exactly me trying to figure it out. I never said this will replace AVP for everyone

 

[G5isAlive]

But if they have this product actually shipped, the rest of window placement are software updates (although they might not do it).
I was wondering on a conceptual level and ignore the actual software implementation. Will this hardware replaces a lot of important things AVP is doing for many ppl

There has been a LOT of criticism of AVP evangelists (for want of a better term) that talk about what they AVP could potentially do... and it can potentially do A LOT. But the criticism is you have to judge a product on what it can do today, not its potential for tomorrow, and I can only assume the Vision will do what they claim on their web site and forums. And right now that is multiple fixed screens, no native apps (other than browser), tethered to another device (so not as portable). I can see how that might be enough for some, maybe a lot. And thats if it ships. Which, who really knows. But I am not going to judge it on what it potentially can do, against what a AVP can do now.

 

[CrysisDeu]

Have you worn a visor? You are making assumptions that it's going to be better because they tell you it will be. And maybe it will. But in all the pictures it is only the 'stem' version which they admit people use because it looks 'cooler', but that the back strap version is more comfortable. So who really knows, if the stem version is more comfortable or not, or will even stay on your face or not. I can see how if move my head something that weighs even just a couple of hundred of grams could slide around easily if not held in place. No one has published a review that has actually worn one. Unless you are now saying you have

Well I see a smaller hardware package, naturally I would imply it as one of the things different from AVP. If you see a compact plastic phone, you assume it will be easier to hold right?
Maybe it sucks when actually wearing it, who knows?

 

[CrysisDeu]

No, people are saying the part of the AVP's capabilities that they're actually interested in - accessing their Mac via virtualised displays, is done in a (potentially) better way by the Visor - it gives them more Mac screens, for less weight, and less cost.



Maybe the problem is AVP owners can't quite comprehend that all the VisionOS native stuff is utterly uninteresting to people who want a headset to work with their Mac? They may not want to use VisonOS versions of their Mac apps with data synced via iCloud etc, they just want a headset for their Mac, not a separate headset computer.

Yes, not for all people, but I have seen a lot saying the mirror feature is the killer feature for them to buy an AVP.

 

[G5isAlive]

I believe what you are doing is confusing a subscription plan offered by Immersion to owners of third party headsets (Immersion Pro), with a featureset that comes bundled for life with Immersion's first party headsets (Visor).

Any reasonable person would interpret the Visor materials as "comes with a lifetime subscription to (the specifically mentioned features of) Immersion Pro".

The Visor FAQ is unambiguous - the features you have when the subscription is active remain in perpetuity after the subscription has ended. If that is not the case, they are in breach of basic consumer laws in most jurisdictions.

dude. I assume nothing. It is up to the vendor to be clear if they want me to spend my money on their product. You speak like there is one product. Their website order page has two. The standard visor and the more expensive Foundation Visor. The only time a lifetime subscription to Immersion Pro is even mentioned is when they are mentioning it AS A SPECIFIC PERK TO THE MORE EXPENSIVE VISOR FOUNDATION VERSION. No reasonable person would anticipate what is being offered as a perk for a more expensive version applies to the standard version. There is no consumer law that is going to protect you there.

So which is the more unambiguous, the FAQ or the Foundation Perk section?

And I am not the only one that sees it this way, I included a link to an article about the Visor that says the exact same thing. Presumably the article would have been corrected if false, and I would think someone at Immersed is reading articles about their product. Maybe not.

But okay, you know better. Shrugs. Matters not. Neither one of us can buy one now. One can only hope they improve the details on their web site.

 

[nmart1214]

Well because I don’t own a hardware company so I can’t develop whatever I want. I saw this and think it might fit my need and many others. Knowing it won’t for you is exactly what I wanted to know. But I want to go into the root of why. You can say iPhone is a must for my life, and Android phones will not be a replacement. Yes, but they are both smartphone that does a lot of things. I am trying to dig into the deeper reasoning of it.

The discussions are exactly me trying to figure it out. I never said this will replace AVP for everyone

It's not a matter of saying it will replace Vision Pro for everyone, it's a matter of the perceivable pushback. I can't fault you for that though, it's a little much for me but it is inherently investigative in nature.

If you do get the Visor, I'd appreciate a follow up post where you discuss where it met, exceeded, and fell short of your expectations. I expect it to be a far better version of the Xreal Air 2, which has a similar feature set but with tiny screens and in my testing was painful to wear for prolonged periods(not uncomfortable like the AVP can get, but straight up painful on my face due to pressure points)

 

[G5isAlive]

Well I see a smaller hardware package, naturally I would imply it as one of the things different from AVP. If you see a compact plastic phone, you assume it will be easier to hold right?
Maybe it sucks when actually wearing it, who knows?

Smiles, sorry, I just don't make assumptions. I have see too many people screw up too many obvious things to make assumptions now. Thats why I always test for myself, a big believer in hands on. And if thats not possible, I wait for real reviews. I really question why no one has been given the chance to wear and report on one yet if they are this close to being released. Caveat Emptor. But I do agree, all other things being equal, less weight on your face should be more comfortable than more.

Like I said early on, their website seems to be more a wish list with room for tons of assumptions, and people are all too eager to jump in with those assumptions and say this is the product for them. we just don't know. I am looking forward to finding out. For myself.

 

[G5isAlive]

I expect it to be a far better version of the Xreal Air 2, which has a similar feature set but with tiny screens and in my testing was painful to wear for prolonged periods(not uncomfortable like the AVP can get, but straight up painful on my face due to pressure points)

I know it's off topic, but I would like to hear more about this. Everyone assumed the xReal Air 2 would be more comfortable than the AVP, you are the first I hear with actual knowledge. By and large if I focus on wearing the AVP, sure, I can say it feels strange, but if I focus on my work I can easily go 5 hours without being uncomfortable. So what about the xReal made it painful?

 

[mattspace]

So which is the more unambiguous, the FAQ or the Foundation Perk section?

The FAQ is a legally binding public statement by a company describing the terms and conditions of purchase for a product it has for sale. It states in clear english a set of features that are included in perpetuity once subscriptions included in the original purchase have lapsed.

Immersed Pro is the subscription for 3rd party headsets. A subset of its features - 5 screens, higher resolutions etc are bundled for life with all versions of the Visor.

Visor Plus is a different, unrelated "membership" subscription for extra services, which just coincidentally happens to be the Immersed Pro features minus the ones that are bundled with the Visor, and which the Visor doesn't require in order to function.

Visor has a subset of Immersed Pro as a perpetual part of the product package, the remainder of Immersed Pro is a Visor-specific subscription called Visor Plus, which is available in 1 or 2 year packages with purchase.

This isn't rocket surgery, nor is it ambiguous - it's all written there in plain english. If that's confusing, the problem is people's reading comprehension skills, not Visor's website. They're different subscriptions, with different names, for different headsets.


EDIT: From Immersed directly:

Hi Matt,

If you choose to cancel your (ed. Visor Plus) membership after it's initial term, you'll lose the member benefits. You'll get to keep this minimum functionality: 5+ screens, ultrawide resolutions, offline mode, public co-working in the Immersed app. Our offering on Apple, Meta and other headsets will be different over time than what you can access on Visor.

Ryan Yep
GTM & Partnerships

 

[G5isAlive]

Maybe the problem is AVP owners can't quite comprehend that all the VisionOS native stuff is utterly uninteresting to people who want a headset to work with their Mac?

I have always been more of a person that picks up a tool and accepts it on face value to figure out if it works for me rather than complain about what it isn't. Seems to be a more productive route to getting the job done. So I really am not interested in what other people want. Quilty as charged.

But okay, you don't want a Phillips head screw driver you want a flathead. I have no comment on that. Good for you. But you have strongly stated in other posts that a Visor (unreleased, untested, unseen, flathead) is a better approach for most people and then went on to complain about what the AVP (released, available, and commented on ad nasuum Philips) can't do and that's where I comment. Stop trying to sell me a flathead. I like my Phillips for Phillips screws. Stripped a lot of Phillips screws when I was young and too lazy to put down my flathead screwdriver and get the right tool for the job.

And in the same token, I don't feel the need to put down flathead users. Power to you. I've been known to use a flathead screwdriver too. But some people just seem to be personally offended by a Phillips head and feel the need to put it down.

Ain't choice grand.

 

[G5isAlive]

This isn't rocket surgery, nor is it ambiguous - it's all written there in plain english. If that's confusing, the problem is people's reading comprehension skills, not Visor's website. They're different subscriptions, with different names.

So why did they mention it at all as a perk for the Visor foundation if those features are ubiquitous to all the Visors?

Maybe you are a lawyer, maybe you aren't, I just don't make the assumptions you do, but you can go ahead and insult my reading comprehension skills. I read it all, you select parts that you like.

 

[NT1440]

I know it's off topic, but I would like to hear more about this. Everyone assumed the xReal Air 2 would be more comfortable than the AVP, you are the first I hear with actual knowledge. By and large if I focus on wearing the AVP, sure, I can say it feels strange, but if I focus on my work I can easily go 5 hours without being uncomfortable. So what about the xReal made it painful?

Same boat here. In my home office I have a 32" 4k screen and a 27" 4K screen. My laptop is on the side to handle Teams messages. I've been interested in this concept of virtual monitors for a while but haven't pulled the trigger. XReal is one of the products I keep seeing mentioned as a potential fit, but haven't gotten real world impressions.

Ideally, if I could eliminate my monitors and just have my keyboard, mouse, and laptop my big desk would be even more useful for other activities with all the space saved.

Visor *might* fit the bill, but everything about the site screams to me a product still in active development.\

I should note, that this would strictly be to make my work life more efficient. This use case is absolutely not a HMD vs AVP scenario for me. I'll probably get an Apple vision 3-4 years down the road whenever a consumer version comes out.

I tend to leave the tech behind when I clock out for the day, I like to do something tangible like wrench in the garage when my Sysadmin duties are done for the day.

 

[nmart1214]

I know it's off topic, but I would like to hear more about this. Everyone assumed the xReal Air 2 would be more comfortable than the AVP, you are the first I hear with actual knowledge. By and large if I focus on wearing the AVP, sure, I can say it feels strange, but if I focus on my work I can easily go 5 hours without being uncomfortable. So what about the xReal made it painful?

It is not made for big heads, in which I have a large one. The glasses would pinch in on my temples and the nose pads(regardless of which one I used) would do the same on the bridge of my nose. After about 20 minutes my face would get sore and I’d want a break. I had to bend the nose pad out of shape to make it better but that didn’t help with my temples also getting pressure.

 

[NT1440]

It is not made for big heads, in which I have a large one. The glasses would pinch in on my temples and the nose pads(regardless of which one I used) would do the same on the bridge of my nose. After about 20 minutes my face would get sore and I’d want a break. I had to bend the nose pad out of shape to make it better but that didn’t help with my temples also getting pressure.

Good to know. How was the screen quality on that device? That's one of the other areas that has left me from trying them out. A virtual monitor does me no good if its a lowly 1080p screen (coming from 4K screens, which are easier on my poor eyes).

 

[nmart1214]

Good to know. How was the screen quality on that device? That's one of the other areas that has left me from trying them out. A virtual monitor does me no good if its a lowly 1080p screen (coming from 4K screens, which are easier on my poor eyes).

The fov is awful, you can tell that you only have access to a small square area on the lenses that is usable for the display. The 1080p display itself is, surprisingly, a highlight. The colors are amazing and it’s the most crisp looking 1080p I’ve ever seen. Blacks are represented as see through so you’ll want to use the light blocker when actually watching content.

Had the comfort not been an issue I think I could have made them work without feeling like I wasted money.

 

[G5isAlive]

Same boat here. In my home office I have a 32" 4k screen and a 27" 4K screen. My laptop is on the side to handle Teams messages.

So I am going to get a lot of crap for saying this by all the young 'you should be paying more attention to your family types', but my home office is two screens, my work office is three screens, my bay side cabin is two screens. So I do screens. I like multiple screens. I've been trained to need multiple screens. or at least want. Take up a lot of desk real estate. Can see the appeal of getting ride of some of that. But probably wont for now.

But what I do NOW, is at night I sit on the couch with my wife and watch television. If I get an email to reply to, documents to edit, or even MacRumors to peruse, I have to make a choice, do I get up, get a dirty scowl from my wife, and go upstairs to the home office... or do I sit there trying not to snore and disrupt her cooking show? After 44 years of marriage, sometimes it comes down to that. Sorry youngsters. I used to use an iPad, sometimes my MBA, but eh, one screen hurts lol.

But now, I can put on my AVP, yes, with my wife sitting there (GASP!), use my apple keyboard, and have all the windows I want floating around me. I can still see her. I can even see her tv show (I sometimes forget it's a tv and try to move the darn window out of the way). Same if I am in a hotel on travel. or on a plane. And I dont need to be tethered to a computer.

I will be interested to see the reality of the Visor, just don't think it's going to replace, for me, the AVP.

 

[NT1440]

So I am going to get a lot of crap for saying this by all the young 'you should be paying more attention to your family types', but my home office is two screens, my work office is three screens, my bay side cabin is two screens. So I do screens. I like multiple screens. I've been trained to need multiple screens. or at least want. Take up a lot of desk real estate. Can see the appeal of getting ride of some of that. But probably wont for now.

But what I do NOW, is at night I sit on the couch with my wife and watch television. If I get an email to reply to, documents to edit, or even MacRumors to peruse, I have to make a choice, do I get up, get a dirty scowl from my wife, and go upstairs to the home office... or do I sit there trying not to snore and disrupt her cooking show? After 44 years of marriage, sometimes it comes down to that. Sorry youngsters. I used to use an iPad, sometimes my MBA, but eh, one screen hurts lol.

But now, I can put on my AVP, yes, with my wife sitting there (GASP!), use my apple keyboard, and have all the windows I want floating around me. I can still see her. I can even see her tv show (I sometimes forget it's a tv and try to move the darn window out of the way). Same if I am in a hotel on travel. or on a plane. And I dont need to be tethered to a computer.

I will be interested to see the reality of the Visor, just don't think it's going to replace, for me, the AVP.

I'm getting married in October. Luckily for my my fiance is constitutionally incapable of staying awake past 10pm, so when I'm done working I spend a couple hours with her, then if need be I'll head back into my office.

I'd love to fully walk away at the end of the day, but life in IT realistically just doesn't allow for that these days.

If this Visor is capable of running 3+ crisp 4K screens I'll take a hard look at it...once it's an actual product, and seen in the real world. It sounds like a nice evolution of the current 1080p offerings, but everything from the site to the medium posts promoting it make me think if it were 10 years ago this would be a successfully Kickstarter campaign....

 

[Night Spring]

So I am going to get a lot of crap for saying this by all the young 'you should be paying more attention to your family types', but my home office is two screens, my work office is three screens, my bay side cabin is two screens. So I do screens. I like multiple screens. I've been trained to need multiple screens. or at least want. Take up a lot of desk real estate. Can see the appeal of getting ride of some of that. But probably wont for now.

But what I do NOW, is at night I sit on the couch with my wife and watch television. If I get an email to reply to, documents to edit, or even MacRumors to peruse, I have to make a choice, do I get up, get a dirty scowl from my wife, and go upstairs to the home office... or do I sit there trying not to snore and disrupt her cooking show? After 44 years of marriage, sometimes it comes down to that. Sorry youngsters. I used to use an iPad, sometimes my MBA, but eh, one screen hurts lol.

But now, I can put on my AVP, yes, with my wife sitting there (GASP!), use my apple keyboard, and have all the windows I want floating around me. I can still see her. I can even see her tv show (I sometimes forget it's a tv and try to move the darn window out of the way). Same if I am in a hotel on travel. or on a plane. And I dont need to be tethered to a computer.

I will be interested to see the reality of the Visor, just don't think it's going to replace, for me, the AVP.

How does your wife feel about you putting on your VP, vs getting out your iPad or MacBook? I take it she prefers any of those to you leaving the room?