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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Reasons to not simply trust the developers

… I don't know what to tell you guys other than you're just gonna have to trust the designers. …

… By the time iOS 7 was actually released and my existential crisis was over, I had already grown to love it. Everything had a reason. So many rules were broken and it was for the better.

What I'm trying to say is simple: you'll get over it. … Put your stubbornness aside. The same thing that happened to iOS is now happening to Mac …

With respect: it's far from the same thing. There's great value in the two operating systems sharing some code and some design principles, but for some things: a line must be drawn.

Whilst I'm not averse to rule-breaking, I'm wary of any majority rule that totally disregards the reasoning of minorities.

The iCal sidebar example

Removed from the app, I don't know Apple's reasons but it became significantly more difficult to use the app.

In a later version of the OS, sidebar functionality was regained.

Then again, Apple removed the sidebar. Around that time, popovers were a novelty – and in some apps, popovers were both beautiful and functional. In iCal, popovers were both of those things, but their functionality could not match that of the sidebar. It's reasonable to assume that only a small minority of users were bothered by the reduced functionality. Reasons to not remove the sidebar were given to Apple long before the OS was released, but the release went ahead with reduced functionality causing significant bother to a small minority of users.

It would have been reasonable to allow the sidebar as an alternative/complement to a popover. Instead, Apple disallowed it.

In a later version of the OS, sidebar functionality was regained.

So. The same mistake twice – and I'm sure that for each time it was made, there were good reasons to do so from a majority of Apple developers and users – but a majority does not necessarily make something right.

It's good manners to respect developers (and users) but please, we must not simply trust the developers!

Feedback from Apple's OS X Beta Program should be an opportunity for the developers to put right, in pre-release seeds of the OS, significant wrongs.

Kicking the ball around – for fun, with a serious edge

In the screenshot below, a mock-up, the appearance of the window is sleeker than Apple's original design. There's enough on screen to know that it's a window to Macintosh HD so hey, I removed the title bar. Something other than a title bar can be used to drag and move the window. I could even define (but not make visible) a drag bar that's as deep as a title bar was, and put that invisible bar inside the frame. So whilst the background colour is perfectly consistent, clicking in white space might have not the same effect as clicking in white space.

Would you trust my design? Set aside any stubbornness. Simply give it time; you'll get over it ;)
 

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8CoreWhore

macrumors 68030
Jan 17, 2008
2,662
1,207
Tejas
I don't like the hair-thin lines of the forward/back buttons and some text. If Ive had his way the damn screen would be blank because stuff "is ugly" and absence "is beautiful." Well, this is terrible to people who have eye sight problems. With iOS 6 I could use the phone without my glasses, and now iOS 7 and 10.10 lots of things are hard to see with my glasses. I'll be sticking with Mavericks indefinitely. New features mean squat to me if I can't see anything.
 

GerritV

macrumors 68020
May 11, 2012
2,265
2,740
(snip)Eventually it was clear that either two things had happened: 1) Ive took over the design team and didn't know what the **** he was doing or 2) The designers were so good at what they do that they literally looked into the future and saw where iOS's design needed to remain modern/top-tier and not go stale.

It was 2.
(snap)
Interesting post.
About the specific quote above: there may have been more than just 2 things. But even if it were just these two, I personally go with 1.
Having a team of people working on anything and trust them to do a good job is a bad idea in any working environment. You can't have people judging their own work - of course they'll think it's good. Ive is supposed to be in charge of judging the quality of the designers, IMHO he does't deliver - by far.

----------

Complaining about Yosemite on this site will do little good. Once again, if you're not a member of the beta program, tell them what you think of Yosemite using the following:


https://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

If you would prefer to write a complaint, here's the address for that too:

Apple, Inc.
1 Infinite Loop
Cupertino, CA 95014

If you're in the beta program, follow the instructions for complaining and reporting bugs. Remember when they came out with the translucent menu bar in Leopard there were so many complaints about it that by the time the next release came out they offered a non-translucent menu bar.

Personally, I would like to see them offer BOTH the old interface and the new one, and let the users decide which looks better.

I would also have to agree with the other user that posted an estimate of 20-30% of the people not liking it, but I'd guess more like 20%. That's still a lot of dissatisfied, potentially lost customers.

About Apple giving in on the translucent menubar, OK - we know this by now.
Any other example? I can't think of one.
In other words: these new folder icons (for one) are here to stay, I haven't a shred of doubt about it :(

About offer both and let users decide, yeah right - so much Apple's way of doing :D
 

905135

macrumors newbie
Aug 2, 2014
14
0
Just use it

all people thought the same about iOS 7. You just got to wait using it for the couple of weeks.
 

905135

macrumors newbie
Aug 2, 2014
14
0
Way too simple. That's absolutely not an answer for everyone. Please see my previous posts.

There are no answer. I just told my experience and the experiences of my friends with iOS 7.
If you don't believe, you could read about software design.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Apple offering choices to beta testers

… offer both and let users decide, yeah right - so much Apple's way of doing :D

That's not entirely laughable.

Rewind five years or so, a feature of Safari: tabs on top. If I recall correctly, it was initially forced upon all beta testers …

… then Apple made the feature optional. Beta testers could either:
  • accept tabs on top; or
  • prefer the title bar on top.

It's reasonable to assume that feedback from users was instrumental in the decision to not release the app without the title bar on top. As someone said:


----------

… my experience and the experiences of my friends …

Exactly; that's far from "all people".

Sorry to be harsh, but with up to a million people testing: encouraging readers to do nothing but wait is counter-productive to beta testing.
 

groovyd

Suspended
Jun 24, 2013
1,227
621
Atlanta
all people thought the same about iOS 7. You just got to wait using it for the couple of weeks.

I've been using it a couple weeks and not only does the dis-interest remain but it actually gets stronger with use. Rarely does something that feels wrong at first grow on you as right later.
 

GerritV

macrumors 68020
May 11, 2012
2,265
2,740
I've been using it a couple weeks and not only does the dis-interest remain but it actually gets stronger with use. Rarely does something that feels wrong at first grow on you as right later.

Agreed. I tolerate iOS7, and of course I got used to it - duh.
But I'm never ever going to like this childish and immature interface.

Yosemite looks like going in the same direction.
What a waist to have such a Playmobil interface on a hardware that is of pure beauty. Guess I'll never understand this discrepancy.

----------

That's not entirely laughable.

Rewind five years or so, a feature of Safari: tabs on top. If I recall correctly, it was initially forced upon all beta testers …

… then Apple made the feature optional. Beta testers could either:
  • accept tabs on top; or
  • prefer the title bar on top.

I stand corrected :rolleyes:
 

PsykX

macrumors 68030
Sep 16, 2006
2,755
3,933
I've been using it a couple weeks and not only does the dis-interest remain but it actually gets stronger with use. Rarely does something that feels wrong at first grow on you as right later.

The problem with Flat Interfaces is that we get tired of them in no time because they're bland.
 

TheBSDGuy

macrumors 6502
Jan 24, 2012
319
29
Had the opportunity to see Yosemite yesterday side by side with Mavericks. When you compare them like that it becomes shockingly clear how unprofessional Yosemite looks. The over simplification of the user interface just leaves me with the impression that it's designed by simple minded people.

It would be an excellent idea if Apple offered 2 versions of the OS interface and let the users decide which to use. Actually from an implementation standpoint, on the surface it would seem that such a task shouldn't be all that difficult, but rather a matter of which binaries and libraries to load associated with GUI components. This would be a safe bet because Apple wouldn't be risking customer loss that I suspect they'll face if they offer new new users and updaters only Yosemite based systems.

I would love to know what the logic behind this is.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
20-30% of their customers? Probably more like 0.1%.


Talk about presumptuous arrogance. :rolleyes:

I think what they've done to the window lights alone is awful. It's turning into a caricature of OS X. And no, you were right the first time. iOS7 *IS* FUGLY. That has NOT changed. Apple does this thing where they leave customers with no choice but to put up with their GOD AWFUL changes in order to keep using new software. Just because someone buys a newer iPhone that has iOS7 does NOT mean they like the look of the GUI!!!! I'll upgrade to Yosemite to keep up with software changes and new features I might like, but that does NOT mean I approve of the GUI changes! The "gel cap" look of the stoplight buttons has been a constant since OS X came out and should not be changed arbitrarily. I like the gel cap Aqua look. I liked OS9's metallic 3D glyph look on the Window borders. I do not like "CARTOON" or PASTEL (old people colors) versions. I didn't buy Macs to join a fashion parade. How about some freaking up-to-date graphic drivers and the latest OpenGL instead of screwing with the interface constantly? That would be nice for a change.
 

nontroppo

macrumors 6502
Mar 11, 2009
430
22
How about some freaking up-to-date graphic drivers and the latest OpenGL instead of screwing with the interface constantly? That would be nice for a change.

Amen! The dire state of Apple's GPU drivers is a significant detriment to the whole platform; existential angst over "flat" is pretty meaningless in comparison...
 

PsykX

macrumors 68030
Sep 16, 2006
2,755
3,933
Amen! The dire state of Apple's GPU drivers is a significant detriment to the whole platform; existential angst over "flat" is pretty meaningless in comparison...

While I completely agree that OS X is always 3 years behind in terms of OpenGL support, I think they're already busy enough working on bringing Metal to their upcoming AppleTV, and bringing gaming on the AppleTV platform, using iOS devices as your controllers. And that's a god damn great thing.
 

Mac32

Suspended
Nov 20, 2010
1,263
454
My main issue with going flat on larger computer screen (vs. iOS), is that it will likely be harder on the eyes during long sessions. 3D-effects creating visual layers makes it easier for the eyes to focus on a certain visual element IMO. I dunno about this... Mavericks is pretty much perfect. What about instead fixing basic stuff like adding features to Finder that Windows Explorer has had for 20 years now? Better graphics support (openGL)? More optimalisation (like Snow Leopard)? etc.
 

MarsViolet

macrumors 6502
Mar 6, 2003
415
361
Meaningless

I hate the names of the new OS's. What the hell does some beach in west america mean to me, in Salford?

I’ve lived in California for 42 years, apparently not too far from Mavericks beach, yet I’d never heard of Mavericks beach. What I think about when people say “Mavericks” is that pin-headed, gun-waving, shrill menace, Sarah Palin, who ran for vice president a few years back, and kept calling herself a “maverick”. Barf.

Yosemite, on the other hand — I know what that is. It’s beautiful if you can look past the endless traffic jams which wind through it 24/7.

Neither make for good OS names.

----------

Amen! The dire state of Apple's GPU drivers is a significant detriment to the whole platform; existential angst over "flat" is pretty meaningless in comparison...

I’d like a modern file system which doesn’t spontaneously corrupt itself!
 

forza69

macrumors 6502a
Jan 30, 2010
790
131
Just wondering if these 2 files picked up from AppCleaner are ok to delete.

com.apple.InstallAssistant.OSX10PublicSeed1
com.apple.InstallAssistant.OSX10PublicSeed1.savedState

I uninstalled my Yosemite partition about a week ago because I didn't like it. Now I want my 5GB of space back but AppCleaner picked up these two extra files that the spotlight way of deleting stuff didn't show.
 

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drnebulous

macrumors regular
Apr 27, 2014
181
0
Salford, UK
I’ve lived in California for 42 years, apparently not too far from Mavericks beach, yet I’d never heard of Mavericks beach. What I think about when people say “Mavericks” is that pin-headed, gun-waving, shrill menace, Sarah Palin, who ran for vice president a few years back, and kept calling herself a “maverick”. Barf.

Yosemite, on the other hand — I know what that is. It’s beautiful if you can look past the endless traffic jams which wind through it 24/7.

Neither make for good OS names.

It's crazy. Tim Cook looks like a boring unimaginative idiot anyway.

A few months ago I thought about moving to Windows, but now that is beyond insane.

If only Avid, Native Instruments and IK Multimedia supported Linux....:(


Goodbye innovation. Hello generic. - Apple
 
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The Unseen

macrumors member
Jun 24, 2012
96
28
Naples, Italy
I like Yosemite aesthetics very much, and it is only my opinion.
But what a lot of people seems to miss, is that the Flattening of Yosemite look is not only a style choice. It is a design choice. It is a need, because in the next years we will see and use this buttons, this icons, this GUI not only on a classic display, but on a large number of objects of everyday use. Probably we will have the true skeuomorphism, seeing informations and buttons on the real objects, and the only way to show this in the correct way is for sure with the minimalism.
 

905135

macrumors newbie
Aug 2, 2014
14
0
Way too simple. That's absolutely not an answer for everyone. Please see my previous posts.

Do not upgrade it! What answer do you want to hear? Maybe that somebody will show the secret version of OS X? It is as it is. Don't like? Don't use.
 
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