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nikicampos

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2011
818
330

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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
I thought you were quitting OS X for good. :D

No, I'm not quitting OS X for good.

To clarify, from a linked post:

14A298i and I'm out. No more seed testing of Yosemite. Apple's abandonment of addresses and title bars is not acceptable. OS X design #fail.​

– those two design aspects were amongst the reasons for me choosing to un-enrol. (Some of the other reasons are scattered elsewhere in public, but those things are off-topic from the current appearance of 14A298i.)

I will at least continue some support for other people's uses of the OS – friends; Mac users at work; online (mostly in Ask Different); and so on.

----------

… good luck with Windows, Ubuntu or other. …

Nothing in what I wrote suggested Microsoft Windows.

"Farewell, OS X."

I thought so too, maybe he was just angry when he said that.. LOL

No, I was calm.

Again: read more. And please be careful when quoting selectively for your own amusement.

Yes, this is a long topic – with links to relevant information – but that does not entitle you to mock people without properly reading what was written.

Express your own opinion about the software.

Please don't misrepresent the opinions of others.
 
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nikicampos

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2011
818
330
No, I'm not quitting OS X for good.

To clarify, from a linked post:

14A298i and I'm out. No more seed testing of Yosemite. Apple's abandonment of addresses and title bars is not acceptable. OS X design #fail.​

– those two design aspects were amongst the reasons for me choosing to un-enrol. (Some of the other reasons are scattered elsewhere in public, but those things are off-topic from the current appearance of 14A298i.)

I will at least continue some support for other people's uses of the OS – friends; Mac users at work; online (mostly in Ask Different); and so on.

----------



Nothing in what I wrote suggested Microsoft Windows.



No, I was calm.

Again: read more. And please be careful when quoting selectively for your own amusement.

Yes, this is a long topic – with links to relevant information – but that does not entitle you to mock people without properly reading what was written.

Express your own opinion about the software.

Please don't misrepresent the opinions of others.

Misrepresent??

Really??

So, you didn't write this? depart, farewell, this OS is not for me.

As 14A298i arrives, I depart.

.......

Farewell, OS X.

It will surely succeed, but it's no longer the OS for me and the sooner I settle on alternatives, the less painful it will be.

.......

Your anger towards an OS makes me laugh, at least accept what you said, I could respect that.
 

matreya

macrumors 65816
Nov 14, 2009
1,286
127
Again: read more. And please be careful when quoting selectively for your own amusement.

In Message #454, he provided a screenshot. Hard to refute that.

Can we please get BACK ON TOPIC? :)

I'd have to say that:

1) The flat dock icons remind me of some linux flavour

2) I don't find the changes to the top of Safari windows to be that big a deal. You can click on the name of the site and it turns into a full web address which you can easily copy/paste. The only confusing element is the shift of the reload button because of the reduction in width of the 'title bar'

3) Not really enjoying the change in UI of iTunes 12, but I'll adapt.
 

machpanic

macrumors newbie
Aug 2, 2014
9
0
Misrepresent??
Your anger towards an OS makes me laugh, at least accept what you said, I could respect that.

He doesn't look angry to me. And anger towards an OS does not make me laugh, it is just the other side of the coin. People here usually have strong feelings regarding OSX, iOS, etc; sometimes it's love, sometimes it's anger and disappointment.

Of course one could also say that you look angry towards him...
 

nikicampos

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2011
818
330
He doesn't look angry to me. And anger towards an OS does not make me laugh, it is just the other side of the coin. People here usually have strong feelings regarding OSX, iOS, etc; sometimes it's love, sometimes it's anger and disappointment.

Of course one could also say that you look angry towards him...

No, he makes me laugh, he says one thing then he says don't quote me on that, like a child.

And yes, when someone gets angry towards a design or a function on a OS, it makes me laugh, just deal with it or make your own.

And back on topic, I don't think Yosemite looks terrible, by now, I think is the best looking OS X ever, and Yosemite has the potential to be the best OS since Snow Leopard.
 

machpanic

macrumors newbie
Aug 2, 2014
9
0
No, he makes me laugh, he says one thing then he says don't quote me on that, like a child.
Why so much anger towards a random person on the internet? It is not like what he says or does has any direct impact in your daily life.

And yes, when someone gets angry towards a design or a function on a OS, it makes me laugh, just deal with it or make your own.
It makes me laugh when someone gets angry towards some random stranger on the internet just because they have a different opinion regarding an OS design or function. He can protest all he likes and if enough people do maybe Apple changes it. It is in their best interest to align their vision with the needs of their users. They don't sit there looking at bug reports laughing and saying: "deal with it"
 

nikicampos

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2011
818
330
Why so much anger towards a random person on the internet? It is not like what he says or does has any direct impact in your daily life.


It makes me laugh when someone gets angry towards some random stranger on the internet just because they have a different opinion regarding an OS design or function. He can protest all he likes and if enough people do maybe Apple changes it. It is in their best interest to align their vision with the needs of their users. They don't sit there looking at bug reports laughing and saying: "deal with it"

LOL that's it for me, I think you two are related, going to some other threads, have a nice Sunday.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
No, he makes me laugh …

nikicampos: if you wish to continue discussion of alternatives to Yosemite, or alternatives to OS X: please continue in a different topic.

nikicampos: if you wish to continue discussion of me, please take that away from the Apple Systems and Services area.

On this page I see from you only one phrase that's on topic – "I love Safari more than ever, it looks amazing" – but it seems that you could not make that observation without also taking a somewhat mocking attitude to someone else's opinion.

Concerning your subsequent posts: if you imagine that it's courteous, respectful or helpful to publicly laugh, mock and taunt when someone attempts to explain things: maybe you're in the wrong place.

…Can we please get BACK ON TOPIC? :) …

Yes, please … appearance of Yosemite …
 

905135

macrumors newbie
Aug 2, 2014
14
0

lparsons21

macrumors 6502
Jun 3, 2014
451
208
Southern Illinois
Back to the actual topic at hand.



My problems with Yosemite are caused by age and aging eyes. The very narrow lines, extremely narrow default fonts and the use of very pale coloring and then using shades of that same coloring like in Safari tabs, just gives my eyes fits.



I need more contrast and more contrasting colors. I've set 'reduced transparency' and 'more contrast' in system preferences and it helps, but not very much.



If themeing was allowed, I could make the changes. But the way it is makes long term use nearly painful. I may in the end either not upgrade or move to another OS altogether.
 

GerritV

macrumors 68020
May 11, 2012
2,265
2,740
Back to the actual topic at hand.

My problems with Yosemite are caused by age and aging eyes. The very narrow lines, extremely narrow default fonts and the use of very pale coloring and then using shades of that same coloring like in Safari tabs, just gives my eyes fits.

I need more contrast and more contrasting colors. I've set 'reduced transparency' and 'more contrast' in system preferences and it helps, but not very much.

If themeing was allowed, I could make the changes. But the way it is makes long term use nearly painful. I may in the end either not upgrade or move to another OS altogether.

Ahh, themeing brings back Tiger memories. So many themes back then were way better done then Yosemite - go figure...
I'm working on a Win7 PC at work these days, testing software. The basic theme is very easy on the eyes, and I really like it - in fact, even better than Mavericks. Clean and out of the way, now THAT is minimalism IMHO.

And to the Ive fan boys: don't tell me to switch to Windows, because that has nothing to do with this thread. Besides, I will stick with Apple and continue to strongly dislike the style and design.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
2) I don't find the changes to the top of Safari windows to be that big a deal. You can click on the name of the site and it turns into a full web address which you can easily copy/paste. The only confusing element is the shift of the reload button because of the reduction in width of the 'title bar'

If I recall correctly: a single click does more than just reveal the address. It also drops a sheet (Top Sites?) that does not disappear until after a keystroke is used.

So in response to a desire for good orientation – orientation for a specific page – the response of the app is to show an array of sites that are likely to be unrelated to that page.

Disorienting. Distracting.

Not only those two things; for some use cases the sheet is also quite unsuitable and time-wasting. An example:

  • I would never use such a browser in a screen recording

… imagine, the demonstrator (maybe a web designer) wishing to show how a web site might be navigated – with addresses shown. What will the viewer of that recording see whenever the demonstrator aims to show what Apple has hidden? I imagine that the demonstration of the browsing experience in Yosemite would appear quite horrible.

An example of someone who treats the absence of addresses as a big deal (forewarning, profanity): http://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comme...n_os_x_yosemite_get_full_addresses_in/ci2gql5
 
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lparsons21

macrumors 6502
Jun 3, 2014
451
208
Southern Illinois
Ahh, themeing brings back Tiger memories. So many themes back then were way better done then Yosemite - go figure...

I'm working on a Win7 PC at work these days, testing software. The basic theme is very easy on the eyes, and I really like it - in fact, even better than Mavericks. Clean and out of the way, now THAT is minimalism IMHO.



And to the Ive fan boys: don't tell me to switch to Windows, because that has nothing to do with this thread. Besides, I will stick with Apple and continue to strongly dislike the style and design.



Ah, just figured out how to quote from Tapatalk on Win8.1 Modern UI. :)



I'm more grumbling. I don't like the look and feel of Yosemite much at all, but overall like all the other things about Apple gear and how it all seems to come together.



From a purely practical standpoint, I could switch to Windows tomorrow and do almost everything that I want. I'm retired so all of this is tech toys to play with. My only real 'production' app is Sibelius for music engraving and it is cross platform.



I'm already using the Surface Pro for almost all my tablet needs/wants as it does things the way I like, and they have CONTRAST!! :)



But iTunes is a big consideration and the Windows version of iTunes is nearly pure crap. So in the end, I'll piss and moan and upgrade while gritting my teeth!!
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
No, he makes me laugh, he says one thing then he says don't quote me on that, like a child.

You making a mountain out of a mole hill is the only thing that strikes me here as starting to appear childish. Let it go already. :rolleyes:

Yosemite has some good points, but as usual lately they feel the need to screw with the good parts of the GUI rather than the bad parts.

And back on topic, I don't think Yosemite looks terrible, by now, I think is the best looking OS X ever, and Yosemite has the potential to be the best OS since Snow Leopard.

There's just no accounting for taste in this world, that is for sure. :p
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Apple: the best is not necessarily the most popular

… 90%, 7% don't like but use, 2% hate but use and 1% switched. This way only proves Apple did everything correct. …

To me, that's not proof of total correctness.

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19431755#post19431755 some thoughts on giving of percentages.

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19405333#post19405333 a fairly strong indication that adapting an app in a way that alienates some users is not always an acceptable approach to adaptation. Reason prevailed at Apple, but it took far too long because things were not put right before release. There, again, thoughts on giving of percentages.

The best is not necessarily the most popular

Reportedly often said by Tim Cook:

Apple wants to make the best, not the most

A person might argue that in making the best, it's sometimes acceptable to lose some popularity; and that loss might involve one percent of users abandoning an app, or an OS, or a version. That's a fair argument. You can't please all of the people all of the time :)

I'm passionate here partly because some parts of the Apple product, currently with beta testers, are demonstrably crappy for some use cases – with no allowance by Apple for end users to prefer something other than that crap.

Recall:

The only thing we'll never do is make a crappy product …

OK, I'll assume that Apple wanted feedback from its experiments to come:
  • from a broad audience (the one million)
  • with a good degree of consistency – without the variations that would arise from giving choices to users.
– fair enough … let all beta testers have an almost identical first taste, and so on.

Cook also talks about things that are right … in the best interest of Apple in the long-term. … Something that makes more fantastic products … and so on.

If Apple's incoherent, inconsistent approach to redesigns and removals of title bars continues – from 14A298i through to release of Yosemite: I'm convinced that the short- and long-term effects on usability of the OS (including third party apps following Apple's precedent of inconsistency) will be both:

  • negative, to some of the users who are accustomed to the best
  • not easy to make good.

----

Bugs and rough edges: those things are the norm whilst beta testing. Way beyond that norm …

… there's an abnormality to the current beta: it appears to demonstrate the potential for a release of an Apple OS to be significantly crappy, with more/worse crap in future releases. Abnormal as in, I have used Apple products for more than two decades and this is the first time that an Apple product has given me that sense.

I'd like Apple to demonstrate the potential for Yosemite to be the best – sooner rather than later.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
I have to say the look of Yosemite has grown on me. I still hate some of the icons, but the overall UI is crisp and nice, though the lack of contrast has hampered me at times.
 

SarcasticJoe

macrumors 6502a
Nov 5, 2013
607
221
Finland
I suppose this thread is further proof that there is no such thing as pleasing everyone and that all too many people think way too highly of their own opinion. My guess is they probably never had to compete for their parents' attention with other siblings.

Me? Like I've stared several times already I think this is a nice move away from the adolescent idea of doing things like a crapload of 3D effects simply for the reason that they can be done and they look cool. Thankfully Apple didn't go as far as that Compiz thing on Linux with the spinning cupe multi desktop, because that was just completely awful.

Besides, the UI is still far from final and they can do plenty of changes and additions before we reach the GM build.
 

timshundo

macrumors regular
Jun 17, 2009
225
200
San Francisco, CA
Talk about presumptuous arrogance. :rolleyes:

I think what they've done to the window lights alone is awful. It's turning into a caricature of OS X. And no, you were right the first time. iOS7 *IS* FUGLY. That has NOT changed. Apple does this thing where they leave customers with no choice but to put up with their GOD AWFUL changes in order to keep using new software. Just because someone buys a newer iPhone that has iOS7 does NOT mean they like the look of the GUI!!!! I'll upgrade to Yosemite to keep up with software changes and new features I might like, but that does NOT mean I approve of the GUI changes! The "gel cap" look of the stoplight buttons has been a constant since OS X came out and should not be changed arbitrarily. I like the gel cap Aqua look. I liked OS9's metallic 3D glyph look on the Window borders. I do not like "CARTOON" or PASTEL (old people colors) versions. I didn't buy Macs to join a fashion parade. How about some freaking up-to-date graphic drivers and the latest OpenGL instead of screwing with the interface constantly? That would be nice for a change.

20-30% is presumptuous arrogance. iOS 7, less than a year out is at a 90% adoption rate. Theoretically, if you wanted to stubbornly assume that that missing 10% were all users who refused to upgrade because they don't like the look of iOS 7, that's still less than 20-30%. Apple is not "disposing" 20-30% of their consumer base because of a visual update.

When it was released, iOS was widely panned because of how shocking the difference was. No one was ready for it. Everyone wanted to have an expert design opinion. Everyone wanted to hate. This is not a phenomena unique to Apple's followers.

Those cries have all been nullified. You'd think with the outrage we were hearing back then that 20-30% of users who hated iOS 7 declared to never upgrade. But alas, numbers speak for themselves.

So this time around, the only objection I'm hearing in the design community is largely coming from this one little forum thread. So compared to how this went with iOS 7, you can imagine why Apple isn't worried about your cries no matter how much bold and caps you use.

You're also crazy if you think the design team has any influence on... updated graphics drivers.

----------

With respect: it's far from the same thing. There's great value in the two operating systems sharing some code and some design principles, but for some things: a line must be drawn.

Whilst I'm not averse to rule-breaking, I'm wary of any majority rule that totally disregards the reasoning of minorities.

The iCal sidebar example

Removed from the app, I don't know Apple's reasons but it became significantly more difficult to use the app.

In a later version of the OS, sidebar functionality was regained.

Then again, Apple removed the sidebar. Around that time, popovers were a novelty – and in some apps, popovers were both beautiful and functional. In iCal, popovers were both of those things, but their functionality could not match that of the sidebar. It's reasonable to assume that only a small minority of users were bothered by the reduced functionality. Reasons to not remove the sidebar were given to Apple long before the OS was released, but the release went ahead with reduced functionality causing significant bother to a small minority of users.

It would have been reasonable to allow the sidebar as an alternative/complement to a popover. Instead, Apple disallowed it.

In a later version of the OS, sidebar functionality was regained.

So. The same mistake twice – and I'm sure that for each time it was made, there were good reasons to do so from a majority of Apple developers and users – but a majority does not necessarily make something right.

It's good manners to respect developers (and users) but please, we must not simply trust the developers!

Feedback from Apple's OS X Beta Program should be an opportunity for the developers to put right, in pre-release seeds of the OS, significant wrongs.

Kicking the ball around – for fun, with a serious edge

In the screenshot below, a mock-up, the appearance of the window is sleeker than Apple's original design. There's enough on screen to know that it's a window to Macintosh HD so hey, I removed the title bar. Something other than a title bar can be used to drag and move the window. I could even define (but not make visible) a drag bar that's as deep as a title bar was, and put that invisible bar inside the frame. So whilst the background colour is perfectly consistent, clicking in white space might have not the same effect as clicking in white space.

Would you trust my design? Set aside any stubbornness. Simply give it time; you'll get over it ;)

Sorry I don't use iCal, I haven't followed it's trials and tribulations in UI, but I was referring to the new universal look and feel in general. The Feedback Assistant is great. I'm racking up my feedback tickets. If something is wrong enough, they'll change it. Whatever is going on with iCal that you're talking about, they'll most likely address it. But they're not going backwards on the new overall look. That's all I was getting at. They're confident in it and there has been almost zero backlash against it, save for this thread.

Your modified screenshot and reasoning is cute but no UI "mistake" in iCal can equate to removing the header on windows.
 
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