Green Button - Maximize, Not Full Screen

[Shirasaki]

Previous to Yosemite option 1 was the default behavior. The inconsistencies in window sizing drove many users nuts.

Option 2 (Full Screen, no menu or dock) is the new default in Yosemite and El Capitan.

Option 3 is the way Windows and Linux work - Maximize window to fill all desktop space while leaving the menu and dock visible. Not having this option drives many former windows users absolutely nuts!

So, I have a question. What is the expected full screen view, users want? Most expected?

In my thought, filling the whole screen, with or without docks and menu bar visible, is acceptable. The old way apple using would drive me mad. And it sometimes doesn't work as advertised. (path finder for example)

 

[Shirasaki]

There are already third party applications which can change the behavior of windows in Mac OS.

However consider learning curve and time cost, implementing it right inside OS would be better than forcing users searching for third-party apps.

 

[redheeler]

"Does Apple have any plans to make this an option in system preferences to make the green button switch between that multitasking debacle known as 'full screen' and make it work PROPERLY like it did before and on other operating systems?"

Agree 100%.

I found this graphic on Facebook several months ago. The author has the right idea. May I suggest you sent Tim Cook an email or Tweet? I think this might be the only way to get Apple to consider adding this as an option.

I have seen several new Mac switchers return their Macs over this issue. They thought that they had gone into the "Dark Ages". Third party apps to do something this fundamental? On a machine that cost this much?

Recently, I started questioning users who felt strongly about this issue and received a new insight. Almost all the users had large screen Macs. They had purchased a large screen because they could get more icons and options on the screen. Having more icons viewable on the screen was a productivity issue for them. By hiding the Dock and Menu Bar they felt that Apple was fighting against them.View attachment 564318

A simple setting in System Preferences > General is really all it would take. I was genuinely surprised to not see this in 10.11.

 

[azpc]

So, I have a question. What is the expected full screen view, users want? Most expected?

In my thought, filling the whole screen, with or without docks and menu bar visible, is acceptable. The old way apple using would drive me mad. And it sometimes doesn't work as advertised. (path finder for example)

Personally, I think all three options should be available. Full screen is excellent for those with a small laptop screen. Ninety percent of the world is used to option 3 because of Windows and Linux. Approximately, ten percent of computer users are used to maximize to content (pre Yosemite Macs).

It would not be difficult for Apple to implement a choose your Maximize function in System Preferences.

Third party options exist, however, compatibility, setup and additional cost issues exist.

Unfortunately, many new Mac users feel as if they have gone into the Dark Ages when they first discover how the Maximize button works. An option in System Prefs will greatly increase customer satisfaction among the switchers crowd. This is important because this is where most of the new customers are coming from!

 

[Shirasaki]

Personally, I think all three options should be available. Full screen is excellent for those with a small laptop screen. Ninety percent of the world is used to option 3 because of Windows and Linux. Approximately, ten percent of computer users are used to maximize to content (pre Yosemite Macs).

It would not be difficult for Apple to implement a choose your Maximize function in System Preferences.

Third party options exist, however, compatibility, setup and additional cost issues exist.

Unfortunately, many new Mac users feel as if they have gone into the Dark Ages when they first discover how the Maximize button works. An option in System Prefs will greatly increase customer satisfaction among the switchers crowd. This is important because this is where most of the new customers are coming from!

And this is important for apple to grab customers from, Windows users. Price benefits of Windows pc and usability of Windows could be a great benefit of users, whether professional or not.

Maybe apple think apple users would never go back to Windows once they love apple? Have you noticed that data of wwdc 2015 new comer? Eighty percent is new comers, not old ones. Wwdc will move on, but I doubt if one wwdc apple will welcome all new members, rather than some familiar faces. (I know price of ticket is incredibly high)

 

[Superhai]

This is a philosophical question and has been going on for ages, and both camps (actually there are several camps now) have valid points. None are good. No matter the choice it will be a compromise.

I could have written a lot, but I will bring up a few points.

First, workflows are something you learn and adapt to. Having options should really only reflect obvious obstacles in various environments. More options do not ease learning curves. (Buzz term: Less is more)

Second, although switching environments are a clear obstacle, one has to consider those who already are used to the workflow in (for you) the new environment. Options to ease transitions, diversifies workflows.

Third, diversified workflows are harder to support, and complicates collaborative environments.

Fourth, don't underestimate psychological effects. Unexpected events do cause anxiety, a feeling of unpleasantness.

Fifth, don't underestimate sensory effects. Distractions and lags do create various psychological effects. And of course enough lagging slows down a workflow.

Sixth, responsiveness (not the funny web-developer variant, but rather not letting users swim in glue).

I bring this in this green-button discussion, because the correct answer would be the one who match closest to all these points.

Why do windows people want the maximize-button? The obvious answer would be to maximize the working canvas, however more often than not is that what is happening. If you look at webpages, not unusually you get more white space, but still maintain the same content. In word-processor, you might get more zoom-level, but not necessarily space for more content, sometimes even lesser because you will zoom in. In graphics app it works most like this. The real answer is you use maximize to get a cleaner workspace, to remove distractions. And that gives some kind of pleasant effect.

On OS X before, the intention was that you got larger canvas (although I also agree that the implementation was not very good, as it depended on the developers), but it did not remove the clutter from backgrounds, and other windows. I see many users who spend more energy moving around windows so that even the last two pixel wide lines are covered on a screen, or rant about that the software doesn't do it for them - even though it really had almost zero implications for their their work.

Apple have solved this to a certain degree with adding the fullscreen mode instead. And with todays mac, switching is fast, and even the transitions are fluent, and I can't really see how it hampers multitasking. I use Command-Tab, and gesture-swipe, to switch between windows and apps. And no, it doesn't turn your computer into an iPad. The weakness is of course if you need more apps on-screen, but that won't neither the maximize button in windows solve, the new splitcreen solve it very good if you need two windows. And for more you still have the usual windowserver workspace.

What I do miss from Windows is the option to automatically reorganize the windows to let all become visible (but that is another story). I also find it sometimes frustrating when I have several fullscreen-windows and they are not the next swipe away. And while using Safari using gestures when the intention was to switch to another screen sometimes it is registered not as a fullscreen swipe and you go forward or back in your browsing history.

Many people do want it working exactly on windows, just because it is making them feel more happy. Not because it have a practical purpose for the workflow. So should they have the option? Only one option can't hurt can it? No it cannot, but this not the only option people ask for. One of the reason why typically open-source projects fail is because everyone add in their "only one" option "that can't hurt". And you have suddenly pages and more pages of preferences. (Another reason they fail is that at the same time they fail to document them, and do not put any reasonable text so people understand what the option really do.) And adding more preferences, makes it more difficult to support and help users, options change behavior and may even be the reason for odd bugs.

So should the green button change or have optional behaviors? It is a key part of the interface, and must be used by users. It must also be consistent. The old way was confusing, the new way is so similar to a maximize window, so from a support perspective it might not matter. So if it was up to just adding one more options to the preferences I would probably not object. Now over to discuss the red and yellow button....

 

[KALLT]

MrNomNoms

Personally, I think all three options should be available. Full screen is excellent for those with a small laptop screen. Ninety percent of the world is used to option 3 because of Windows and Linux. Approximately, ten percent of computer users are used to maximize to content (pre Yosemite Macs).

It would not be difficult for Apple to implement a choose your Maximize function in System Preferences.

Third party options exist, however, compatibility, setup and additional cost issues exist.

Unfortunately, many new Mac users feel as if they have gone into the Dark Ages when they first discover how the Maximize button works. An option in System Prefs will greatly increase customer satisfaction among the switchers crowd. This is important because this is where most of the new customers are coming from!

Just in case this is disputed again, I'm all for adding an option for this.

However, I disagree that Apple should offer options for Windows users as a matter of principle, just because they have expectations when coming from Windows. OS X is not Windows; Windows is not a Linux desktop environment. Sacrifices will have to be made. OS X has never had a maximise button, so it was never part of the OS X experience to begin with. You always needed third-party tweaks for a consistent behaviour and that hasn't changed. It didn't stop people from becoming interested in OS X. The debate should be held with substantive arguments, about why a maximise is button is a good addition in and of itself. I agree that it can be useful sometimes, but I am and have been a strong proponent of the full screen mode and I am happy that Apple is continuing in that direction. I don't think the issue is all that important as some people here want it be and like MrNomNoms (above) I think that Apple should be careful not to incorporate some tired Windows paradigms just because people are not willing to abandon some, to Mac users, nonsensical habits.

Also, please don't use the word Linux in that way, because not every Linux desktop environment behaves in the same way either. GNOME 3 for instance has no maximise or minimise button at all by default (you need to install a tweak tool for a GUI toggle or look for a command-line operation).

 

[KALLT]

Many people do want it working exactly on windows, just because it is making them feel more happy. Not because it have a practical purpose for the workflow. So should they have the option? Only one option can't hurt can it? No it cannot, but this not the only option people ask for. One of the reason why typically open-source projects fail is because everyone add in their "only one" option "that can't hurt". And you have suddenly pages and more pages of preferences. (Another reason they fail is that at the same time they fail to document them, and do not put any reasonable text so people understand what the option really do.) And adding more preferences, makes it more difficult to support and help users, options change behavior and may even be the reason for odd bugs.

You make a lot of good points. I agree in particular with the misguided assumption that customisability is always good or better and that options don't hurt. Even if they don't hurt from a development perspective, they introduce complexity and possibly confusion to users. This is something I always hated about Windows in particular (Linux is not far off). Never ending settings screens, hidden menus, confusing labels, resistance to new paradigms. It pains me to no end whenever I have to go through that. I actually like that OS X does not have so many options to play around with, it's soothing and less distracting, and I like that Apple is bold enough to try new things, including full screen mode and auto-resume. It probably would not have hurt to at least add an option to reverse the behaviour of the green button, even if it's just a hidden preference. I am not sure why they did this, they must have considered that it would piss enough people off and for no good reason.

 

[lchlch]

I think having to click to resize a window to the proper size to be usable is the old way of doing things.

Ideally the windows should automatically configure themselves to the right size. Users should be required to click only if they wish to enter full screen mode.

 

[Shirasaki]

Seems that I can end up here.

 

[azpc]

It is a simple issue to me. If maximize options contribute to productivity and customer satisfaction then it should be offered. It is not a difficult task for Apple.

Set the default option to Full Screen. In System Preferences provide an option to change to the default to:

- Maximize to Content (Window will reshape according to content)
- Maximize Window. (Window will expand to fill entire desktop except for the Menu Bar and the Dock)

Advantages:

These options will enable customers to maximize their productivity style.
- Some like to work with one window only and use trackpad gestures to switch apps.
- Some people like multiple windows scattered over the desktop.
- Some multitask via the Dock. Fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock to switch apps.

No one method is incorrect. Just like Myers Briggs has identified multiple personalities the computer world has multiple productivity styles.

I would like to see the Mac market triple in size, competition is good for progress. I know this option will help the Mac gain market share. I have seen too many ex-Windows users stare in shock when they find out that their beautiful new Mac cannot easily maximize a window over the desktop.

- "Where did my menu bar and Dock go?"
- "How come I have to wait for the menu to appear."
- "I want my Dock to remain visible, how can I change this?"
- "I purchased a large screen so I can have more icons and options on the screen. Why is Apple fighting me?"
- "I have to purchase a third party app to maximize a window? You're kidding right?"
- "I have always heard that the Mac was really easy and well thought out. This is like the dark ages!"

A basic rule of marketing - make a superior product and make it easy to switch to.
Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard by Professors Chip & Dan Heath

If you agree, please contact Apple at:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

You may also want to send Tim Cook, Apple CEO a request on his Twitter account.

Thank you and have a great day!

 

[aevan]

It is a simple issue to me. If maximize options contribute to productivity and customer satisfaction then it should be offered. It is not a difficult task for Apple.

!

I don't want to sound mean, but it would contribute to productivity and customer satisfaction of total 10 people. Almost everyone else don't mind holding the Option key while clicking the green button or double-clicking the title bar for the same functionality.

It's not about whether it's difficult or not, Apple doesn't do things because they are easy, they do them because they believe them to be right.

 

[azpc]

"I don't want to sound mean, but it would contribute to productivity and customer satisfaction of total 10 people. Almost everyone else don't mind holding the Option key while clicking the green button or double-clicking the title bar for the same functionality."

Well I would like to amicably disagree - sorry. (The option key doesn't provide option 3.) This is key issue with many.

Have a pleasant day!

 

[Traverse]

I second that - OS X is a document orientated UI paradigm, Windows is an application orientated paradigm hence the two operating systems behave in different ways.

That's interesting. I've never heard or thought about that. When I came from Windows I was bummed about the functionality of the green button, but found that OS X gave you more effect desktop real estate. And I preferred that method. On Windows, every app was maximized and stack on top of each other and I had to shuffle the task bar to go between them (my first personal computer). OS X's way felt weird, but I quickly adapted. Now, I run Windows the same way (few maximized windows).

When Apple introduced Full-Screen mode I loved it because unlike Window's implementation, the app received it's own space and it only took a swipe or keyboard click to move between them. This got an App "out of the way" but still in full screen. This workflow is one of my favorite things about OS X.

----
OP. I really don't know what to say. I was surprised an option wasn't in system preferences since this is a major change from the previous OSs, but it's not. You have either (1) live with it, (2) use Alt-Click, (3) use the double click, (4) use a third party tool that works.

Your hands are pretty much tied so complaining won't help.

 

[Traverse]

YES!!! This is EXACTLY what absolutely MUST be implemented into OS X. I don't even care if the default behaviour is full screen, let the whiners in this thread . . .

I don't understand the hostility towards this OPTION, why are there so many arrogant mac users against choice?

No offense OP, but you are the one coming off as hostile and winning. Posters here have tried to help you, but you insult their workflows and methods and then call them whiners which makes you the arrogant one.

 

[Traverse]

A simple setting in System Preferences > General is really all it would take. I was genuinely surprised to not see this in 10.11.

As was I. I think it's a little different than the argument "Apple can't include a setting for every little feature." This was a major shift from the way OS X has worked for a decade. I was surprised it wasn't there in Yosemite and astounded when it was left off in El Capitan.

 

[azpc]

As was I. I think it's a little different than the argument "Apple can't include a setting for every little feature." This was a major shift from the way OS X has worked for a decade. I was surprised it wasn't there in Yosemite and astounded when it was left off in El Capitan.

Agreed, fortunately we are not asking for hundreds of options, only one setting to include amongst the many already included in System Preferences.

For some it is not an issue, great! For others it is a very big issue, particularly switchers. I have seen Macs returned over this very issue. Several of my local Mac friends have been pestering me about this issue since 2007. So it is not a new issue or an issue that is likely to fade away.

I think it boils down to this:

No one method is incorrect. Just like Myers Briggs has identified multiple personalities, the computer world has multiple productivity styles.

Because of tight system integration and fewer viruses Apple has attracted users that were not attracted to the Mac in the past.

These new users are a playing a role in the resurgence of Apple. I can promise you that they did not switch to the Mac because the Mac has a different operating paradigm. They switched because it was more familiar than Windows 8 nor did it have the issues of Windows Vista.

If anything can be learned from the Windows 8 debacle, it is this. Unless the new method is clearly superior, people prefer the similar.

I have come to believe that most switchers multitask via the Dock. They switch from one fully maximized window to another fully maximized window and use the icons on the Dock to switch apps.

That is why these questions occur frequently amongst switchers:

- "Where did my menu bar and Dock go?"
- "I want my Dock to remain visible, how can I change this?"
- "I purchased a large screen so I can have more icons and options on the screen. Why is Apple fighting me?"

Apple has a superior product, now they need to provide just enough flexibility to accommodate familiar habits while they come to fully appreciate their new systems.

This is why I think a maximize setting is a great idea. It allows customers to maximize their productivity style.

- Some like to work with one window only and use trackpad gestures to switch apps.
- Some people like multiple windows scattered over the desktop.
- Some multitask via the Dock. Fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock to switch apps.

Take care, and enjoy your Macs.

 

[bladerunner2000]

I don't want to sound mean, but it would contribute to productivity and customer satisfaction of total 10 people. Almost everyone else don't mind holding the Option key while clicking the green button or double-clicking the title bar for the same functionality.

It's not about whether it's difficult or not, Apple doesn't do things because they are easy, they do them because they believe them to be right.

LOL! 10 people?! My god... are you trolling us?

 

[bladerunner2000]

This is why I think a maximize setting is a great idea. It allows customers to maximize their productivity style.

- Some like to work with one window only and use trackpad gestures to switch apps.
- Some people like multiple windows scattered over the desktop.
- Some multitask via the Dock. Fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock to switch apps.

Take care, and enjoy your Macs.

This is the way I work:

On a daily basis I have chrome, vox, photoshop, illustrator, indesign, fontexplorer, transmist, outlook and once a week dreamweaver open in ONE 'space'. I don't use spaces because a lot of my projects are linked; some PSD files contain smart objects which are vectors which open in Illustrator. The same goes for indesign, etc. I have to send files to clients/coworkers via Outlook or wetransfer or transmit (depending on file size). Other times I'll be working in After Affects, some times i'll do front end web development in Coda. Other times I'll do colour corrections in Lightroom. Spaces for me are useless, I dont ever only focus on ONE app at a time. Instead, I use hot corners a LOT;

Top Left - does nothing (too often I mouse over to that area by accident)
Top Right - Mission Control (all windows shown at once)
Bottom Right - All Application Windows I'm currently working in
Bottom Left - Desktop

A couple years ago Apple made an idiotic decision to group all windows together within an application when mission control was launched. They got a lot of backlash just as they are rightfully getting it now with the green button. They eventually added 'Group Windows By Application' into the system preference. I'm assuming the narrowminded users in this thread are upset about that too seeing how they dont want OPTIONS.

In any case, I go back and forth between a ton of apps constantly. I'm supposed to be a web designer/developer but because I started out in graphic design my job has shifted to taking over a lot of the print projects as well. But I work the same way at home anyway. Therefor, I need to have windows occupy as much space as possible WITHOUT hiding the dock or file menu as I absolutely NEED those (apparently this is not possible according to the members in this thread).

Therefor, giving how I, and many others require to have the dock and file menu, Apple is long overdue to change the behavior of the green OPTIONALLY for users. Full screen is a joke for power users.

 

[azpc]

LOL! 10 people?! My god... are you trolling us?

Don't worry about name calling etc. First, we are far better off focusing attention on why Maximize options need to exist. I would encourage you and others to state plainly why they would like to a Maximize option. Finally, once a list is compiled it can be sent to

https://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

In addition, it might help to send Tim Cook, Apple CEO a nice tweet requesting the option.

Thanks for creating the original post! Have fun with your Mac!

 

[azpc]

"This is the way I work by Bladerunner2000

On a daily basis I have chrome, vox, photoshop, illustrator, indesign, fontexplorer, transmist, outlook and once a week dreamweaver open in ONE 'space'. I don't use spaces because a lot of my projects are linked; some PSD files contain smart objects which are vectors which open in Illustrator. The same goes for indesign, etc. I have to send files to clients/coworkers via Outlook or wetransfer or transmit (depending on file size). Other times I'll be working in After Affects, some times i'll do front end web development in Coda. Other times I'll do colour corrections in Lightroom. Spaces for me are useless, I dont ever only focus on ONE app at a time. Instead, I use hot corners a LOT;

Top Left - does nothing (too often I mouse over to that area by accident)
Top Right - Mission Control (all windows shown at once)
Bottom Right - All Application Windows I'm currently working in
Bottom Left - Desktop

In any case, I go back and forth between a ton of apps constantly. I'm supposed to be a web designer/developer but because I started out in graphic design my job has shifted to taking over a lot of the print projects as well. But I work the same way at home anyway. Therefore, I need to have windows occupy as much space as possible WITHOUT hiding the dock or file menu as I absolutely NEED those (apparently this is not possible according to the members in this thread)."

Excellent description! Thank you for posting! Please send this to Tim Cook and Phil Schiller. (You can find their email addresses on the web).

 

[w0lf]

Somebody needs to make a plugin that does this, I feel like it would be very successful.

 

[lchlch]

This is the way I work:

On a daily basis I have chrome, vox, photoshop, illustrator, indesign, fontexplorer, transmist, outlook and once a week dreamweaver open in ONE 'space'. I don't use spaces because a lot of my projects are linked; some PSD files contain smart objects which are vectors which open in Illustrator. The same goes for indesign, etc. I have to send files to clients/coworkers via Outlook or wetransfer or transmit (depending on file size). Other times I'll be working in After Affects, some times i'll do front end web development in Coda. Other times I'll do colour corrections in Lightroom. Spaces for me are useless, I dont ever only focus on ONE app at a time. Instead, I use hot corners a LOT;

Top Left - does nothing (too often I mouse over to that area by accident)
Top Right - Mission Control (all windows shown at once)
Bottom Right - All Application Windows I'm currently working in
Bottom Left - Desktop

A couple years ago Apple made an idiotic decision to group all windows together within an application when mission control was launched. They got a lot of backlash just as they are rightfully getting it now with the green button. They eventually added 'Group Windows By Application' into the system preference. I'm assuming the narrowminded users in this thread are upset about that too seeing how they dont want OPTIONS.

In any case, I go back and forth between a ton of apps constantly. I'm supposed to be a web designer/developer but because I started out in graphic design my job has shifted to taking over a lot of the print projects as well. But I work the same way at home anyway. Therefor, I need to have windows occupy as much space as possible WITHOUT hiding the dock or file menu as I absolutely NEED those (apparently this is not possible according to the members in this thread).

Therefor, giving how I, and many others require to have the dock and file menu, Apple is long overdue to change the behavior of the green OPTIONALLY for users. Full screen is a joke for power users.

I used to do web development.

I usually run 3 - 4 terminals, Firefox, chrome, Safari, mail, iTunes and occasionally photoshop. Full screen apps worked great for me.

Have you tried using fullscreen in your workflows? And I believe split screen multitasking should have alleviated some of your problems.

Alternatively you should probably consider adding a monitor or 2 to your setup?

 

[KALLT]

Somebody needs to make a plugin that does this, I feel like it would be very successful.

You mean like the already existing helper tools BetterTouchTool or Moom (mentioned on page 1)?

 

[Superhai]

I have never met anyone who dumped OS X because of the button did not maximize as on windows. So I am not sure how widely needed it is. I know that several people like it but it is like around number 965 on the list of features they might want. Clearly two members here are very vocal on this issue. But I still think that using it for fullscreen is the better option, I also want to know that when I need to support other users that the button do just that.

Fullscreen gives more real estate to your software than any other solution, so for a graphic designer, adapting their workflow around that should be the option they want.

As all option will anyway be a tradeoff, the poorest solution would be to make the default behavior different for what it was or is today.