Very sad: Ventura is a steaming hot mess of 💩

[svenmany]

No company can reliably test for edge cases - not Microsoft, Apple, Samsung, HP, etc. The resources that would be needed to a) identify every possible combination of usage and b) actually test said edge cases would be prohibitive for even Apple.

Good point. It's a question of degree. I'm claiming Apple is worse than what I expect, so it's definitely subjective.

Apple didn't bother testing what happens if you enter garbage input for the dns server (my computer crashed). They didn't expect anyone to do that; that makes sense. Is that an edge case that is justifiable to miss? There's no objective answer to that.

The real question is what happened with the update for @ldjpy. Also, there's another thread which I joined where someone raised the issue of strange SSD disconnect/reconnect since the update (and ethernet issues). I saw the SSD disconnect happen yesterday.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/did-the-latest-rapid-security-update-break-stuff.2388533/

It might be one of those edge cases since I have 3 SSD drives connected. Is so, then it's a judgement call again whether it's acceptable to not test thoroughly for multiple attached drives.

 

[ldjpy]

One thing Apple is really bad at is testing for use cases that are out of the norm. That's why some people will likely respond with "it works ok for me". I'm one of those, though I'm just two days in with the update. For example, I do wonder how many people have so many virtual desktops and, given Apple's poor testing, I doubt they tested such a situation.

Can you think of any unusual software you're running, stuff that wouldn't be really mainstream?

The apps installed are mostly from the MacOS App Store, except for M365 which I have a subscription and installed using the M365 installer (and would fall in the category of "mainstream"), and I limited the apps installed since this is a light-weight laptop.

I have had this MacBook since the High Sierra days, and even Monterey did not have defects that "broke" an Apple MacOS main feature such as Spaces, nor rendered the machine keyboard & mouse i/o unresponsive. Thus I don't consider these to be "edge / rare test cases", and (having managed appdev in the industry over 30 years) nowadays there are many automated testing tools to cover vast test cases which would be tedious for manual execution. Thus "prohibitive" scope would be very limited in reality.

No one expects perfection, it is unreasonable, however what I have experienced specifically with Ventura and the gap to what was experienced with Monterey is beyond a coincidental "teething" situation - there is something very deeply problematic in Ventura to account for the problems. These are not run of the mill bugs from new features. Many code that supported old hardware was removed from Ventura which is a big difference from Monterey and that appears to me to be a significant contributing factor to these problems.

I have not encountered problems that have led me to question a MacOS update until Ventura 13.2.1, and shaken my confidence of any MacOS update until 13.3.1(a).

Having a situation where a MacOS update ends up preventing the usability of great hardware is not acceptable for me, I need to be able to use my computers on a daily basis.

If Apple's MacOS team is going to be that cavalier with the quality of their deliverables, then at least make it so it can be installed on home made hardware.

 

[ldjpy]

Good point. It's a question of degree. I'm claiming Apple is worse than what I expect, so it's definitely subjective.

Apple didn't bother testing what happens if you enter garbage input for the dns server (my computer crashed). They didn't expect anyone to do that; that makes sense. Is that an edge case that is justifiable to miss? There's no objective answer to that.

The real question is what happened with the update for @ldjpy. Also, there's another thread which I joined where someone raised the issue of strange SSD disconnect/reconnect since the update (and ethernet issues). I saw the SSD disconnect happen yesterday.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/did-the-latest-rapid-security-update-break-stuff.2388533/

It might be one of those edge cases since I have 3 SSD drives connected. Is so, then it's a judgement call again whether it's acceptable to not test thoroughly for multiple attached drives.

It may be my opinion only, but if the hardware has multiple TB ports and multiple USB ports and implicitly friendly with docking stations, then common sense would surmise that multiple SSD and thumb drives would be connected concurrently; it would be surprising if that was not a test case.

The fact that Intel based machines supported multiple SSDs with Monterey and previous MacOS versions clearly eliminates h/w as the cause, and there were probably test cases for it as well. Thus I wonder what happened with the Quality Assurance Governance with Ventura.

 

[ldjpy]

Sorry to vent.
My main concern is that Apple abandons support of Intel machines after Ventura and leaves it as an unreliable OS for us Intel machine owners. They could at least leave us with a highly reliable MacOS before abandoning us Intel owners, please! (I promise to buy an M3 or later based machine in the future.)

 

[Alwis]

Good point. It's a question of degree. I'm claiming Apple is worse than what I expect, so it's definitely subjective.

A lot of the problems I have encountered with macOS would have been easily to catch with automated testing. And not to forget, that Apple has more than 160000 employees, probably most of the do use macOS. My guess ist, that they do not roll out updates internally because of secretive reasons.

And a lot of the edge cases should be found in beta testing. So I assume, that this process needs improvement. I for myself have stopped to give feedback to Apple because I never got any feedback and a lot of the issues I reported where not fixed in a reasonable time (a few month).

 

[svenmany]

The apps installed are mostly from the MacOS App Store, except for M365 which I have a subscription and installed using the M365 installer (and would fall in the category of "mainstream"), and I limited the apps installed since this is a light-weight laptop.

I have had this MacBook since the High Sierra days, and even Monterey did not have defects that "broke" an Apple MacOS main feature such as Spaces, nor rendered the machine keyboard & mouse i/o unresponsive. Thus I don't consider these to be "edge / rare test cases", and (having managed appdev in the industry over 30 years) nowadays there are many automated testing tools to cover vast test cases which would be tedious for manual execution. Thus "prohibitive" scope would be very limited in reality.

No one expects perfection, it is unreasonable, however what I have experienced specifically with Ventura and the gap to what was experienced with Monterey is beyond a coincidental "teething" situation - there is something very deeply problematic in Ventura to account for the problems. These are not run of the mill bugs from new features. Many code that supported old hardware was removed from Ventura which is a big difference from Monterey and that appears to me to be a significant contributing factor to these problems.

I have not encountered problems that have led me to question a MacOS update until Ventura 13.2.1, and shaken my confidence of any MacOS update until 13.3.1(a).

Having a situation where a MacOS update ends up preventing the usability of great hardware is not acceptable for me, I need to be able to use my computers on a daily basis.

If Apple's MacOS team is going to be that cavalier with the quality of their deliverables, then at least make it so it can be installed on home made hardware.

100% agree with everything you said.

I could imagine a room of a 100 Macs (maybe some VMs for some tests), those machines running large suites of automated tests for the months leading up to the release (new features - new tests, bugs - retest). Apple does a half-baked attempt since the ROI isn't high enough to do more.

How could they not have caught the SMB bug that prevented file sharing from working if the files have certain metadata on them. How could they not have caught the bug that caused an error when trying to open a file the first time after the containing folder's name was changed. How could they not have caught the bug that prevented stealth mode from being turned on. I have many more examples. I don't think it will ever get better. Making noise here will not have any effect. If MacRumors made a front-page post about Ventura quality problems, then Apple might take notice. But, that's risky for them. If I were the MacRumors editor, I probably wouldn't step into that without some metrics to back it up.

I still like the Mac and the user experience since I encounter these bugs infrequently (I'm a lucky one - just niggly bugs, a couple of times a day, but always easy to work around). But, this is a thread about poo, so I thought I'd pile on.

 

[ldjpy]

Sorry for an unrelated issue, but might be due very similar root cause...

Yesterday noticed that my Apple Home (HomeKit) automations were not working with Philips Hue lights (via Hue Bridge). Have had no problems since I setup the Hue a couple of years ago. Other devices native to HomeKit are functioning fine. There was probably an update to the HomeKit hub (original HomePod and original AppleTV 4K) but I haven't paid much attention if/when an update occurred to those operating systems, and wouldn't know what the previous version was anyways (these tend to update automatically).

I have seen the recent postings of people with similar problems, so know that it has not been resolved yet.

But do I need to now have to watch out for unreliable updates to my HomePod and AppleTV along with MacOS and iOS and iPadOS ?!

Luckily my AppleWatch is the original series-0 that maxed out on OS updates years ago - and working fine.

Ah Apple, what happened ?!

 

[ldjpy]

100% agree with everything you said.

I could imagine a room of a 100 Macs (maybe some VMs for some tests), those machines running large suites of automated tests for the months leading up to the release (new features - new tests, bugs - retest). Apple does a half-baked attempt since the ROI isn't high enough to do more.

How could they not have caught the SMB bug that prevented file sharing from working if the files have certain metadata on them. How could they not have caught the bug that caused an error when trying to open a file the first time after the containing folder's name was changed. How could they not have caught the bug that prevented stealth mode from being turned on. I have many more examples. I don't think it will ever get better. Making noise here will not have any effect. If MacRumors made a front-page post about Ventura quality problems, then Apple might take notice. But, that's risky for them. If I were the MacRumors editor, I probably wouldn't step into that without some metrics to back it up.

I still like the Mac and the user experience since I encounter these bugs infrequently (I'm a lucky one - just niggly bugs, a couple of times a day, but always easy to work around). But, this is a thread about poo, so I thought I'd pile on.

Cheers.

I would imagine that Apple would not be facing "budget issues" to procure a few hundred Macs for testing.

 

[fisherking]

Cheers.

I would imagine that Apple would not be facing "budget issues" to procure a few hundred Macs for testing.

how many millions of macusers are out here? think of all the variables: the apps we run, the utilities; the peripherals we use. the monitors, the way system settings are configured. and so on.

a 'few hundred' macs doesn't begin to approach what's happening in the real world. hence, the beta programs.


with the 13.4 beta of 9 may, everything is (so far) running beautifully here. everything works. am dragging files between my macs, running all my apps without issue; no 'file not found' errors; am happy.

best moment to date for ventura (for me, anyway).

 

[Rkuda]

Interesting post here regarding someone famous and their loss of interest in Apple

https://apple.slashdot.org/story/23...son-announces-hes-switching-from-mac-to-linux

Particularly

But if you read the Slashdot thread you'll see lots of people are confused - because he says he is using the RaspberryPi OS. He could just be a cranky old man now who wants a very locked down, simple setup he can control more to his liking.

I don't really think its a big portent of the state of macOS.

I mean if some famous person came out and said they stopped eating meat and they are now eating toejam in its place I'd probably be like ".....Oh....", instead of "Yeah, non feet based protein sources are really problematic these days".

 

[svenmany]

But if you read the Slashdot thread you'll see lots of people are confused - because he says he is using the RaspberryPi OS. He could just be a cranky old man now who wants a very locked down, simple setup he can control more to his liking.

I don't really think its a big portent of the state of macOS.

I mean if some famous person came out and said they stopped eating meat and they are now eating toejam in its place I'd probably be like ".....Oh....", instead of "Yeah, non feet based protein sources are really problematic these days".

They're confused about a point that's unrelated to his comment about the state of MacOS. He's just saying that "what Apple is doing to something that should allow you to work is just atrocious". For his kind of work, he has had to move on.

I suspect he's using various flavors of Linux, for different things. I'm not surprised that a lot of his work is on Raspbian. He did talk about controlling a player piano with midi and using a RaspberryPi for that. That seems to be a big hobby of his. So, his using Raspbian is not as ridiculous as eating toe jam.

I agree that his sole point of view is not a big portent about where MacOS is headed. It's just one opinion to add to the mix. I do see the portents for my work. I do actually worry that each new release of MacOS will move in directions that make things harder for me. Very simple things, like the new inability to move modal save dialogs out of the way to review the underlying window's contents, shows a general lack of consideration for my kind of usage. Save dialogs used to not even be modal. Apple's motivation was not functionality, just visuals.

 

[panjandrum]

I went through several troubleshooting steps that I won't document here. USB backups don't boot so the recovery process is HORRIFIC now for Apple. Removing the ability to boot to USB drives is a nightmare level mistake by Apple.

Yep. I also support, to a much lesser degree, Windows systems (I custom build mostly top-tier VR capable gaming rigs as a side hustle.) Over the past ten years or so Microsoft has fixed the vast majority of issues, while Apple has added to their ecosystems all of the nightmarish problems that used to make Windows such a joke. Want to make a bootable clone? Cake in Windows and now virtually impossible on Macs (CCC can do it, if you are very, very lucky). Want to quickly roll back an update? Cake in Windows and (now that bootable clones don't really exist in the Mac ecosystem) basically *impossible* on Mac, where it now means a *complete* wipe, reinstall, and full restore from Time Machine or another backup - and even then you won't get the OS revision you want unless you really know what you are doing. (OCLP, which you use, actually makes this process easier than Apple ever has. I've got 30+ OCLP machines right now in daily use. Such a great project!) It's not just AS machines that can't be cloned, same is true with Intel Macs on recent OS revisions.

Apple is busy making their Mac systems unfit for purpose for anything other than absolutely basic home use (i.e. iPad with a keyboard.) If we were not so deeply entrenched in Apple tech I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole today.

The only remaining upside of Apple is, of course, the reliability. We *routinely* get 10 years of service (with battery replacements) on Apple Laptops *in the hands of K-8 students.* That level of reliability makes up for a lot of faults. We've got 24 2009 MacPro 4,1s -> 5,1s all with OCLP, and not a single one has had a hardware failure except the original HDDs. Not one single fan has failed, not one single power supply, nada. 14 years old. That is some pretty good hardware quality.

 

[fisherking]

Apple is busy making their Mac systems unfit for purpose for anything other than absolutely basic home use (i.e. iPad with a keyboard.) If we were not so deeply entrenched in Apple tech I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole today.

and yet i, and so many others, run apps like logic pro and final cut every day; people work in adobe apps, other graphic apps. and others do whatever they do for.... work.

just because you personally don't like where the OS is doesn't mean everyone else feels that way.

 

[ylluminate]

Still on Monterey here after that last fiasco, but I've got Apple pushing me again to upgrade due to bugs they won't fix now for Monterey. I'm so flipping sick of Apple's ever deepening rot. Windows is still trash - I use it daily on a couple other workstations other than my several macOS systems, but there's just no winning situation right now for operating systems. Linux is fragmentation hell. The computing world is simply in decline.

 

[ylluminate]

I gotta say, Spotlight is killing me this morning. I had decided that the usual popup (my keybinding cmd-space) is not reliable when working with OneDrive and Dropbox files (discussed in other threads). So, I've taken to just hit alt-cmd-space to get the finder window in search mode.

This morning it has started malfunctioning. When I type alt-cmd-space, the finder window does open, but so does the popup, and the popup gets keyboard focus. Then when I type my search there, it opens a second finder window with that search filled in. So then I have two finder windows open. Every now and again it works properly and just opens the one finder window ready to go.

It's distracting and annoying.

By the way, I've disabled Spotlight altogether and it has helped a lot. Been without Spotlight now for about six months and the system is so much better in terms of performance, etc. (on Monterey no less).

 

[dogface1956]

By the way, I've disabled Spotlight altogether and it has helped a lot. Been without Spotlight now for about six months and the system is so much better in terms of performance, etc. (on Monterey no less).

I have also disabled spotlight and used LaunchBar instead, it has worked much better for me.

 

[Isamilis]

Still on Monterey here after that last fiasco, but I've got Apple pushing me again to upgrade due to bugs they won't fix now for Monterey. I'm so flipping sick of Apple's ever deepening rot. Windows is still trash - I use it daily on a couple other workstations other than my several macOS systems, but there's just no winning situation right now for operating systems. Linux is fragmentation hell. The computing world is simply in decline.

If I were you, I would stay in Monterey (or whatever stable version that works), until I found bugs / limitation (ie, apps compatibility issues) which “forced” me to upgrade. I am not worry too much for bugs in macOS (unless it really severe bugs and proven had been exploited and spread widely).

 

[zakarhino]

I am able to reproduce the Wi-Fi bug in System Settings.

Disable Wi-Fi. Open System Settings. Select "Network" on the left. You'll see that the Wi-Fi network is missing which makes sense. Enable Wi-Fi using the menubar. The Wi-Fi network shows up in the list. Select it. The "Details..." button in the displayed page doesn't work. As it happens, if you select "Wi-Fi" on the left, the displayed "Details..." button does work. Another workaround is to restart System Settings.

I suspect any developer would guess the nature of the bug. The handler for the malfunctioning button is only set up when starting System Settings. It doesn't get set up if the button is introduced later. The Wi-Fi section's version of the button always exists when System Settings is opened, so the click handler is always available. An amateur mistake in an immature application.

I've tested repeatedly on two different machines running Ventura and the result is consistent.

It's becoming apparent that the people responsible for building macOS are not at all power users of macOS which is why so many of these issues go unchecked. Additionally the bar for software rigidity has gone down. They really need to be engaging in more field operations that expose them to all the strange ways (yet valid) ways people use their Macs. Just because sitting in Safari all day and occasionally opening up the Photos app is something "the majority" of Mac users do doesn't mean we should be building for those people alone.

Even with that being said the absolutely abhorrent years-long state of the Music app, a regular consumer app, is inexcusable. I don't want to hear a single peep from anyone trying to defend Apple's complete failure to build a world class desktop Music app. It's literally the one thing keeping me from using Apple Music instead of Tidal.

I've said it so many times before: the outliers are the people that drive the OS experience for everyone else. For the love of God please start building for power users again.

 

[fisherking]

It's becoming apparent that the people responsible for building macOS are not at all power users of macOS which is why so many of these issues go unchecked. Additionally the bar for software rigidity has gone down. They really need to be engaging in more field operations that expose them to all the strange ways (yet valid) ways people use their Macs. Just because sitting in Safari all day and occasionally opening up the Photos app is something "the majority" of Mac users do doesn't mean we should be building for those people alone.

Even with that being said the absolutely abhorrent years-long state of the Music app, a regular consumer app, is inexcusable. I don't want to hear a single peep from anyone trying to defend Apple's complete failure to build a world class desktop Music app. It's literally the one thing keeping me from using Apple Music instead of Tidal.

I've said it so many times before: the outliers are the people that drive the OS experience for everyone else. For the love of God please start building for power users again.

all good here in logic pro & final cut (pro apps!). whatever specific issues you're having, you'd accomplish more by posting about that, and asking for help. ranting really doesn't fix anything (but of course that never stopped anyone) 🙄

 

[zakarhino]

all good here in logic pro & final cut (pro apps!). whatever specific issues you're having, you'd accomplish more by posting about that, and asking for help. ranting really doesn't fix anything (but of course that never stopped anyone) 🙄

I just did, my post mentioned Apple Music and how the desktop app is so terrible it's the one thing preventing me from switching over to it from Tidal...... As for issues with macOS 13, I don't have any because the anecdotes surrounding its failure are enough to keep me away for now even though I need macOS 13 specific features.

On the Logic Pro and Final Cut front, those are apps that are literally older than me and are just that: apps. My primary irritation with Apple is how they are not innovating in the power user *workflow* area (the software around the apps, so to speak). Apple have not built anything in a long time that genuinely boosts my cognition which is the holy grail of all power user productivity.

I have already posted about this ad nauseam around the forum so I don't fancy repeating myself in detail again. I have a long thread I started in the Apple Services subforum dedicated to some ideas on features I would like to see in a next generation of Apple Music for example.

For now I'll continue ranting and adding to the noise about how much of a fail macOS 13 is on the most basic requirement of an operating system: stability. Others are already doing a good job at listing the specific issues. Turns out making noise is sometimes enough for Apple to listen.

 

[fisherking]

I just did, my post mentioned Apple Music and how the desktop app is so terrible it's the one thing preventing me from switching over to it from Tidal...... As for issues with macOS 13, I don't have any because the anecdotes surrounding its failure are enough to keep me away for now even though I need macOS 13 specific features.

On the Logic Pro and Final Cut front, those are apps that are literally older than me and are just that: apps. My primary irritation with Apple is how they are not innovating in the power user *workflow* area (the software around the apps, so to speak). Apple have not built anything in a long time that genuinely boosts my cognition which is the holy grail of all power user productivity.

I have already posted about this ad nauseam around the forum so I don't fancy repeating myself in detail again. I have a long thread I started in the Apple Services subforum dedicated to some ideas on features I would like to see in a next generation of Apple Music for example.

For now I'll continue ranting and adding to the noise about how much of a fail macOS 13 is on the most basic requirement of an operating system: stability. Others are already doing a good job at listing the specific issues. Turns out making noise is sometimes enough for Apple to listen.

logic & final cut are not static apps, they're updated all the time; when they first appeared has no relevance to anything. i mean, an app like word isn't what it was 20 years ago.

you're not using the OS, but you're complaining about it? amazing.

 

[svenmany]

I encountered an annoying bug today; I'm curious if others have seen it.

I was going back through TimeMachine backups and retrieving various versions of the same file. My intention was to select "restore to..." for each, which should have allowed me to select a destination. Instead, it just behaved like the "Restore" button and insisted on restoring to the original location.

User error or another Ventura bug?

 

[thefriendshipmachine]

Ventura is the worst release of MacOS I can remember since I started with 10.5. I am so curious why it's so bad:

1. When I drag windows to another monitor the windows just disappear until I let go of the cursor

2. when I go to file > open on many apps like firefox, the popup doesnt display BUT IT WILL display if I open and collapse mission control for some reason

3. every time I wake from sleep I get bombarded by the same "background items added" notifications over and over. 8 of them!!!

4. The apple music app is terrible. Randomly sound will just die until I reset the track. Other times sound is incredibly stuttery or just generally buggy.

5. If you use stage manager and restart your mac then it reopens all windows but not in the same staged groups s they were in before. Very unpolished.

6. In stage manager if I have two windows for the same app in two different groups on two different monitors, and I open one of those groups on monitor A, then monitor B automatically switches to its group that has a window for that app.....

And also the settings app is just awful! For example lets say you want to manage when your computer shows the screensaver and when it sleeps. Before this was just in the power section. Now it's spread across THREE SECTIONS. Screen saver is its own section, if you want to configure when the screensaver shows then its randomly just in the lock screen section, and lastly if you want to prevent the computer from sleeping its under displays.... I don't even...

 

[zakarhino]

logic & final cut are not static apps, they're updated all the time; when they first appeared has no relevance to anything. i mean, an app like word isn't what it was 20 years ago.

you're not using the OS, but you're complaining about it? amazing.

The workflow surrounding the use of Logic Pro and Final Cut today are practically the same as they were a decade ago, save for some obvious improvements to certain utilities within those apps, which is why I specifically mentioned Apple's failure to innovate on __the workflow__ (again: the stuff AROUND the siloed apps). Also yes, Word is the same paradigm today as it was 20 years ago. A new paradigm for example would be something that transcends a static document entirely; this is what generative AI might introduce in a few years. You could argue Microsoft 365 is the substantial update (I wouldn't) but the desktop Word app itself? Nah, no real innovation there in a decade+

I'm complaining about the OS because I want to use it but I can't because there are too many reports of it being unstable. I cannot believe this needs to be explained to you.

First you say I'm not complaining about anything specific in response to me explicitly complaining about something I have a problem with (Apple Music) and now you're mentioning apps getting basic quality of life updates* when I specifically mentioned a failure to innovate on the workflow such that my cognition/ability to work is changed radically.

I feel like this is a reading comprehension debate rather than a substantive one.

*QOL updates debatable if we consider the number of people moving away from Final Cut to DaVinci because of Apple's apparent abandonment of substantial updates to Final Cut.

 

[fisherking]

I'm complaining about the OS because I want to use it but I can't because there are too many reports of it being unstable. I cannot believe this needs to be explained to you.

'too many reports'... vs how many macusers who just use the OS, and don't spend their time arguing and ranting on forums? personally, i base my observations on my own real-world experiences, not what others experience.

meanwhile, i'll get back to work, enjoying an exceptional experience on ventura 👍