Very sad: Ventura is a steaming hot mess of 💩

[svenmany]

I gotta say, Spotlight is killing me this morning. I had decided that the usual popup (my keybinding cmd-space) is not reliable when working with OneDrive and Dropbox files (discussed in other threads). So, I've taken to just hit alt-cmd-space to get the finder window in search mode.

This morning it has started malfunctioning. When I type alt-cmd-space, the finder window does open, but so does the popup, and the popup gets keyboard focus. Then when I type my search there, it opens a second finder window with that search filled in. So then I have two finder windows open. Every now and again it works properly and just opens the one finder window ready to go.

It's distracting and annoying.

 

[svenmany]

I am able to reproduce the Wi-Fi bug in System Settings.

Disable Wi-Fi. Open System Settings. Select "Network" on the left. You'll see that the Wi-Fi network is missing which makes sense. Enable Wi-Fi using the menubar. The Wi-Fi network shows up in the list. Select it. The "Details..." button in the displayed page doesn't work. As it happens, if you select "Wi-Fi" on the left, the displayed "Details..." button does work. Another workaround is to restart System Settings.

I suspect any developer would guess the nature of the bug. The handler for the malfunctioning button is only set up when starting System Settings. It doesn't get set up if the button is introduced later. The Wi-Fi section's version of the button always exists when System Settings is opened, so the click handler is always available. An amateur mistake in an immature application.

I've tested repeatedly on two different machines running Ventura and the result is consistent.

 

[halledise]

macOS usually comes good with the last update before the next version.
same as it's ever been

 

[fisherking]

macOS usually comes good with the last update before the next version.
same as it's ever been

that's so.... random. it's all over the place (in my experience). in any version of the OS (for example), beta 2 might be really good, but beta 4 breaks a few things that worked in beta 2, while fixing something that didn't work well in beta 1. then the final release is pretty good, but.........

and round & round we go... 🤷

 

[orionquest]

that's so.... random. it's all over the place (in my experience). in any version of the OS (for example), beta 2 might be really good, but beta 4 breaks a few things that worked in beta 2, while fixing something that didn't work well in beta 1. then the final release is pretty good, but.........

and round & round we go... 🤷

Whats the reason to jump onto something new? What benefits will it have over previous versions and your workflow?
If it's just because it's the new shiny then get comfortable being a beta tester until Apple moves onto the next version.

 

[genexx]

DAU

 

[Yebubbleman]

Well folks, just wanted to relate some experiences I've had in my small foray into Ventura and am done with this iteration of the OS it appears. A few major halting / critical points on an M1 Max system (also, just to be clear, I'm not a novice user - I've been a goto guy that has helped Apple "Geniuses" over the years when they can't figure things out) :

1. Be aware that the upgrade can seriously fail. I tried both 13.0 and 13.1 beta. The system, while performing an upgrade, had an infinite Apple logo reboot loop that went into recovery mode after several reboot attempts. I went through several troubleshooting steps that I won't document here. USB backups don't boot so the recovery process is HORRIFIC now for Apple. Removing the ability to boot to USB drives is a nightmare level mistake by Apple. I do not trust Apple whatsoever anymore, even though their brand of OS is still the lesser of the proverbial "poisons" yet still (not a compliment, just an observation).
2. Installed from scratch, but restore of previous system settings failed for some various obscure/unclear reasons. This situation descended into chaos when I found that the Recovery tool no longer worked and no associated tools work. This mode also incorrectly detected my system volume as being encrypted and no usernames or passwords that are system admins/owners would actually authenticate with the actually correct password. Things are seriously broken when they break with the recovery situation.
3. My Time Machine backup did not work properly. It was detected and all seemed well with it, but the system, again, for some obscure and non-clear reason, failed to use it. I had to use a secondary backup made with Super Duper, BUT that was a ridiculous process. It took 30 hours to restore the 7tb+ of data.
4. APFS Snapshots are a steaming mess. Apple is not using APFS snapshots properly / appropriately; I could not rollback on the upgrade system to to Monterey. This is an enormous problem and oversight / missed opportunity by Apple and is truly baffling. I've had some people who know the internal goings on at Apple express extreme frustration for not only the missed opportunity with ZFS, but now the problems of APFS not being used properly. A truly incredible situation.
5. When I played with the fresh install I found that some things were really screwed up. For example:
   • Stage Manager is trash for anyone with more than one display. The only useful way to use macOS is still with extended displays and WITHOUT separate Spaces for each display. Apple does not allow Stage Manager to even work with the extended displays situation and frankly Stage Manager simply has little to no value even if you intend to use it for focused mode when you require any other monitors.
   • The new system Settings is enormously impotent and foreign. They really didn't think this through fully and are missing a lot of functionality. They should have, at the very least, provided BOTH methods of configuration since the new Settings app also feels enormously disorganized and even searching for features is not immediately fruitful. It's simply not ready for primetime usage - not to mention that it just doesn't fit UX parameters for non-iPhone/iPad usage.
   • An Asus monitor that works perfectly on Monterey and is identical to a second monitor on the system does not allow for recognition of full resolution at the correct refresh rate when used with a DisplayPort adapter. HDMI works, but then macOS continues to have the monitor schizophrenia problem where it can't determine which monitor is which when they have the same model number (no fault of Apple per se), but the resolution + refresh situation IS faultable to Apple.

I could go on about various other points and problems, but I just don't have any more time and my frustration level is over 9,000.

Full recovery to Monterey was a painful process. Due to some fashion in which Ventura screwed up the recovery partition and so forth, reinstallation required erasure of the ENTIRE drive, network access (sadly I had to authenticate my machine with Apple, which is ridiculous and scary in and of itself and should not be required), and then downloading of Monterey again... Plus a 30 hour Migration step.

I will not be moving this machine to Ventura and Apple has very much dropped a significant level in terms of trust for our company. We have several Apple Silicon machines now that we are worried about in terms of the future and Apple's clear inability to make good decisions and lacking of actual quality assurance processes.

To boot, their Feedback / RADAR system has been very poor over the last couple years too. Apple's support/engineering department has been abysmal in responding to many and various reports. Someone needs to pull them out of the swirling toilet basin desperately before they are simply no different than Microsoft.

This post makes me realize how seldom I actually do macOS whole version upgrades. I don't ever do it on my own hardware. I just prefer to clean wipe and move my data back while reinstalling everything. Takes a bit, but what you're left with is incredibly smooth. I generally only run the upgrade installers on other people's Macs or at workplace Macs.

There's an easy way to downgrade your Apple Silicon Mac to Monterey, though, you're only going to be able to get to 12.6.1 (you'll have to update from there to 12.6.3). Grab another Mac (preferably one with USB-C/Thunderbolt 3/4; doesn't matter if Intel or Apple Silicon). Go to Mr. Macintosh's site (www.mrmacintosh.com), click the "M1/M2 IPSW Download" link at the top and download the one for macOS Monterey 12.6.1. Then, make sure you download and install Apple Configurator 2. Use Apple Configurator 2 to perform a DFU restore on your Apple Silicon Mac. You might need to hold down the option key when selecting the option to do a restore so you can select a different IPSW file rather that having Apple merely restore everything with version 13.2.1 of Ventura.

Note that this will completely wipe your Mac. But it's probably the most painless method to downgrade the OS on your Mac short of making a bootable Monterey installer drive and just booting off of that to wipe your Mac and reinstall macOS.

Good luck!

On my Intel MBP 2020, I have the option to allow booting off USB drives if I go into Recovery, then go into the Startup Security utility. I believe this also applies to M1/M2 Macs.

Your Intel MacBook Pro from 2020 (13-inch?) is an Intel Mac that has the T2 Security Chip. Only Intel Macs that have the T2 Security Chip have to deal with the setting from Startup Security Utility that you are referring to. Intel Macs without the T2 Chip and Apple Silicon Macs don't have that to worry about (the former because that predates Apple putting in the T2; the latter because macOS is the only functional OS out there that can boot on Apple Silicon Macs and the versions out there are virtually 100% tamper-proof).

 

[fisherking]

Whats the reason to jump onto something new? What benefits will it have over previous versions and your workflow?
If it's just because it's the new shiny then get comfortable being a beta tester until Apple moves onto the next version.

that's your opinion, entirely different from mine. and where does one stop? should we all be running classic OS 9? os x 10.2? or...? what's the version you think we should hang onto.....

we can each do what we want. i like being on the 'edge' of the 'new'; for me it's fun, interesting, and sometimes quite rewarding (like running 'universal control' when it first appeared; now it's an essential part of my workflow).

if it's not for you, that's fine too. if i want to be adventurous (aka 'reckless' 🤣), that's my prerogative. if you want to stay behind, enjoy it. it's all okay...

 

[TyShawn]

I hate to vent by this upgrade to an M2 on Ventura really has me not liking Apple right now. Simple things like Mail crashing on some emails (fixed), or wifi slowing down to the point it isn't working, zooming not working, trackpad clicking not reregistering. This OS is just the worse.

 

[HDFan]

Disable Wi-Fi. Open System Settings. Select "Network" on the left. You'll see that the Wi-Fi network is missing which makes sense. Enable Wi-Fi using the menubar. The Wi-Fi network shows up in the list. Select it. The "Details..." button in the displayed page doesn't work. As it happens, if you select "Wi-Fi" on the left, the displayed "Details..." button does work.

Can't reproduce. Details doesn't work when WiFi is off since there are no details.

 

[svenmany]

View attachment 2175769


View attachment 2175770

Can't reproduce. Details doesn't work when WiFi is off since there are no details.

After you turn WiFi back on, the Details button won't work.

 

[svenmany]

Interesting post here regarding someone famous and their loss of interest in Apple

https://apple.slashdot.org/story/23...son-announces-hes-switching-from-mac-to-linux

Particularly

Now recently, meaning within the last five years, I've become more and more depressed, and what Apple is doing to something that should allow you to work is just atrocious.

 

[fisherking]

Interesting post here regarding someone famous and their loss of interest in Apple

https://apple.slashdot.org/story/23...son-announces-hes-switching-from-mac-to-linux

Particularly

well, if even just one person feels like that, we should all abandon our macs. 🤣

for every person who feels 'apple has fallen off', there are millions who are enjoying their macs, the OS. all these 'sky is falling' posts & threads are ridiculous, and a distraction from actually discussing issues, getting help.

but at least, it's always entertaining here 👍

 

[svenmany]

well, if even just one person feels like that, we should all abandon our macs. 🤣

for every person who feels 'apple has fallen off', there are millions who are enjoying their macs, the OS. all these 'sky is falling' posts & threads are ridiculous, and a distraction from actually discussing issues, getting help.

but at least, it's always entertaining here 👍

If I read your post correctly, you are saying that this thread should be about people getting help and that sharing an opinion is a distraction. I understood this thread to be about sharing opinions. The slashdot post is an important voice sharing an opinion. Shutting down avenues of discussion is not entertaining.

Phrases like "we should all abandon our macs" and "sky is falling" suggest you think that the person had a very strong opinion and was pushing for others to join him in his move to Linux. That was not my takeaway, especially after watching the video. You had a strong emotional reaction to it. I have that reaction when I fear losing confidence in my own opinions.

It was interesting to hear that he feels the last five years have been the problematic time period for him, after using Apple software for "most of his life". I do wish that he had gone into more detail about his issues. I'm left guessing about the kind of things that get in the way of him getting his work done on the Mac. I'm still very productive, but the bugs in the OS (ones that you would not encounter, notice, or care about) are a distraction.

Here's an example that often annoys me and makes my work harder than it should be. I'm often dragging files from one finder window to another. Also, I keep Finder in list view. Quite often (more than 50% of the time), when attempting to drop a file onto a target folder, the folder does not highlight to indicate that it will be the destination of the drop. If I'm not very careful (or accidentally let up on the mouse button too early), I won't be sure where the file ended up. This bug is so easy to work around, but it's an annoyance and distraction. And these annoyances and distractions do add up.

Instead of addressing that obvious usability issue, Apple focuses on things like getting my text messages to show up on the Mac. I do like that cool feature, but it doesn't work 100% of the time. So, if I come to count on it, it can become a distraction when it fails. I believe that when he joked "But they are taking a lot of space and time to do it, so it's okay", he was referring to all the time Apple spends on adding features that don't help him get his work done. But, I do wish he spent a bit of time explaining his comments.

 

[fisherking]

If I read your post correctly, you are saying that this thread should be about people getting help and that sharing an opinion is a distraction. I understood this thread to be about sharing opinions. The slashdot post is an important voice sharing an opinion. Shutting down avenues of discussion is not entertaining.

Phrases like "we should all abandon our macs" and "sky is falling" suggest you think that the person had a very strong opinion and was pushing for others to join him in his move to Linux. That was not my takeaway, especially after watching the video. You had a strong emotional reaction to it. I have that reaction when I fear losing confidence in my own opinions.

It was interesting to hear that he feels the last five years have been the problematic time period for him, after using Apple software for "most of his life". I do wish that he had gone into more detail about his issues. I'm left guessing about the kind of things that get in the way of him getting his work done on the Mac. I'm still very productive, but the bugs in the OS (ones that you would not encounter, notice, or care about) are a distraction.

Here's an example that often annoys me and makes my work harder than it should be. I'm often dragging files from one finder window to another. Also, I keep Finder in list view. Quite often (more than 50% of the time), when attempting to drop a file onto a target folder, the folder does not highlight to indicate that it will be the destination of the drop. If I'm not very careful (or accidentally let up on the mouse button too early), I won't be sure where the file ended up. This bug is so easy to work around, but it's an annoyance and distraction. And these annoyances and distractions do add up.

Instead of addressing that obvious usability issue, Apple focuses on things like getting my text messages to show up on the Mac. I do like that cool feature, but it doesn't work 100% of the time. So, if I come to count on it, it can become a distraction when it fails. I believe that when he joked "But they are taking a lot of space and time to do it, so it's okay", he was referring to all the time Apple spends on adding features that don't help him get his work done. But, I do wish he spent a bit of time explaining his comments.

a lot of words... and no, you're not reading me correctly; i'm simply saying that whining and ranting threads don't accomplish much (except, to be fair, to let off stream) versus threads where people present their issues, and ask for help.

i never lose confidence in my opinions. i do make mistakes sometimes, just not... right now...

 

[svenmany]

a lot of words... and no, you're not reading me correctly; i'm simply saying that whining and ranting threads don't accomplish much (except, to be fair, to let off stream) versus threads where people present their issues, and ask for help.

i never lose confidence in my opinions. i do make mistakes sometimes, just not... right now...

Yeah, a lot of words can be challenging for some. Sorry.

You do say "whining" a lot. I suspect you think opinion threads are generally whining when the opinions are not positive. Maybe you think they are whining when they don't agree with your opinions. Maybe you just don't value opinions. I tend to learn from other opinions; more so when they differ from mine.

I would suggest you stick to the threads that ask for help. If you are complaining about a thread, from within the thread, you would be happier not to be there.

 

[fisherking]

Yeah, a lot of words can be challenging for some. Sorry.

You do say "whining" a lot. I suspect you think opinion threads are generally whining when the opinions are not positive. Maybe you think they are whining when they don't agree with your opinions. Maybe you just don't value opinions. I tend to learn from other opinions; more so when they differ from mine.

I would suggest you stick to the threads that ask for help. If you are complaining about a thread, from within the thread, you would be happier not to be there.

thanks for explaining to me how i feel & think, and letting me know how to navigate the forum 🤣

i only think that whining posts are whining. period. and am fine with opinions that aren't the same as mine...even yours.

perhaps you can respond to this (so you get the last word in), and then we can let things get back on track? i'll do that if you do that 👍

 

[martint235]

I am that person. I have a M2 Pro mini running the latest beta. It’s mainly used for playing in Python both in MacOS and in several virtual machines (Fedora, Debia and Ubuntu) and to date I’ve not had any issues at all

 

[svenmany]

View attachment 2175769


View attachment 2175770

Can't reproduce. Details doesn't work when WiFi is off since there are no details.

I'm quite interested...Were you able to reproduce the bug I see. When you turned WiFi back on, did the details button work for you?

 

[svenmany]

thanks for explaining to me how i feel & think, and letting me know how to navigate the forum 🤣

i only think that whining posts are whining. period. and am fine with opinions that aren't the same as mine...even yours.

perhaps you can respond to this (so you get the last word in), and then we can let things get back on track? i'll do that if you do that 👍

Roger. Let's do that. Hey, I got the last word in.

 

[robertosh]

Totally agree, I’ve just received my mini m2 Pro. I think is the best hardware ever but unfortunately with the worst software ever. It’s strange but I enjoy way more using my old 2012 mini with High Sierra. Even if it is noticeable slower, it feels rock solid and predictable. Since big sur specially macOS is too colorful and full of useless features that only gives more complexity and bugs to the system. Apple needs to step back, and focus on what it matters, in offering an stable and predictable system and forget about “keynote-only” features.

 

[George Dawes]

This morning I had an issue with my sony tv which I use as a monitor , in the old days using the old system preferences it was easy to find things as it was sorted alphabetically , with this ridiculous pos new one it was a total nightmare


It's like they've got an ms engineer mole in there purposely destroying the os from the inside

 

[fisherking]

This morning I had an issue with my sony tv which I use as a monitor , in the old days using the old system preferences it was easy to find things as it was sorted alphabetically , with this ridiculous pos new one it was a total nightmare


It's like they've got an ms engineer mole in there purposely destroying the os from the inside

system settings>view = alphabetical! & did you try the search window in settings? both simple options...

 

[George Dawes]

Not when the screens all wonky

I eventually sorted it by a hard reset of the tv

 

[fisherking]

Not when the screens all wonky

I eventually sorted it by a hard reset of the tv

ok, so... a tv issue, and not a mac issue? either way, not sure how the older 'preferences' would have made any difference in this case 🤔