Very sad: Ventura is a steaming hot mess of 💩

[orionquest]

Ha!! Good timing. As I wrote above, I only remember the bugs I've encountered recently. I did say I would track it while I worked yesterday and report why I used it and the bugs I encountered. Unfortunately, I did no further computer setup since I was working all day; that limited my use of settings. However, I did use it four times in the morning. One time I encountered a bug I hadn't seen before; I'll save that one for the last. Without further ado...

1 - I found myself annoyed over the ordering of results in Spotlight. I decided to check if Ventura reintroduced the ability to reorder. Even though I was disappointed, I didn't encounter a bug.

2 - I found the mouse size too small. I went to settings to put it how I had it on my old machine. I forgot where the setting was. I typed "Mouse Size" into the search. It was absolutely brilliant just how quickly I found the setting.

3 - Spotlight was searching my external drives. I went into settings and excluded them.

4 - I was taking a bunch of screenshots and was not getting the old behavior I had configured. I forgot how to set that default, so I went to settings. I typed "screenshot" in the search. There was one result - "Keyboard shortcuts". I again thought it was brilliant, but it wasn't. I clicked on that result and keyboard shortcuts opened on the wrong popup; it opened on "Modifier Keys". It should have opened on "Screenshots". That's a bug.

A lot of the bugs are at that level of triviality, but point to poor testing and a lack of attention to detail. The bug relating to the failure to turn on stealth mode (which I see is now fixed) was a serious breach of trust by the OS. If you're in a hostile network environment and you turn on stealth, it's horrific that the settings app turned it back off without you being aware.

I can't reproduce the network "Details..." bug at the moment, but it was agonizing. I have two ISP's, three disjoint networks, 2 ethernet VLANs through a managed switch, 3 WiFi routers. Setting up a new computer requires me to bounce around between the different networks. I have to set up host entries to the new computer from other computers and the reverse. I have to cater for when they are on WiFi or ethernet. I sometimes have to switch to static addresses to be able to get to some devices on different subnets (e.g. the switch). I was certainly exercising the network sections of settings a lot. The fact that it started failing was pretty pathetic. Other people who don't work so much with networking would not have encountered the bug.

So, one bug in four visits. That does not point to a 25% failure rate. But still...if I really paid attention, I would notice many more that I might have just ignored and quickly worked around. System Settings is at alpha level. It's a brand new app and Apple doesn't do brand new well.

Yeah none of these are bugs to me. More like user preference then anything, or OE most likely from the sounds of it. Real bugs are when stuff breaks that are worth complaining about, not this nonsense.

 

[svenmany]

Ok, but that's about as minor of a bug as you can get, and "Screenshots" is right there in the left pane of that same popup. You were talking about literally having to force-quit System Settings. I'm more interested in a reproducible bug that results in System Settings hanging. I certainly don't think it's at alpha or even beta level. So far, I've been able to accomplish everything I did with the old System Preferences, but even more easily.

I figured you or others might answer that way. People might say they don't encounter bugs because they don't notice them; they just don't impact them enough to generate any interest. If my users reported to me the situation I described, they would ask me to fix it. If I gave my users an application that had such an obvious bug, I would be embarrassed. (Unfortunately, I'm frequently embarrassed.)

People often are able to accomplish things easily with buggy software. The other day, I was easily using Pages to type up something. I was unable to start a new paragraph in bold (an old bug). It made me sad, but didn't make things hard. A pencil and paper is less buggy, but much harder to use.

Opening up the wrong popup is a significant failing, especially to someone who's visually challenged. I've read people complaining that they can't find things in the new settings app. We (and I) typically counter with they should use the search. The search should be completely reliable. I've not seen in any another application (not by Apple) where you use search in a settings dialog and are taken to the wrong place. I understand that it's not significant to you.

I never said all the bugs caused hangs. I think I mentioned that my guess was that clicking around too quickly caused a hang. I think it's only happened twice since I upgraded my old machine to Ventura, which was a while ago.

Maybe we all disagree on the quality of Ventura because we all have different standards we use to measure it. The fact that you categorized the bug I encountered as "about as minor of a bug you can get" tells me that we are on completely different pages with respect to software quality. It was a bug, one of many I've encountered and forgotten, and one which you never noticed or don't think matters.

System Settings will get better. It's purely a value judgement if you think it's good enough now to be considered production ready. I think it's alpha - I wouldn't give it to users, and if I were being realistic I would expect many bug reports from the testers (about bugs you would think insignificant). If I think my software is in beta, then I'm disappointed to get many bug reports from testers.

Catchy endings and punch lines:

System Settings is new; Apple doesn't do new well.

Jack - "Ventura has no bugs"
Jill - "What about this one?"
Jack - "That doesn't count"

 

[svenmany]

Yeah none of these are bugs to me. More like user preference then anything, or OE most likely from the sounds of it. Real bugs are when stuff breaks that are worth complaining about, not this nonsense.

I only mentioned one bug. Perhaps read it again.

 

[usagora]

I figured you or others might answer that way. People might say they don't encounter bugs because they don't notice them; they just don't impact them enough to generate any interest. If my users reported to me the situation I described, they would ask me to fix it. If I gave my users an application that had such an obvious bug, I would be embarrassed. (Unfortunately, I'm frequently embarrassed.)

People often are able to accomplish things easily with buggy software. The other day, I was easily using Pages to type up something. I was unable to start a new paragraph in bold (an old bug). It made me sad, but didn't make things hard. A pencil and paper is less buggy, but much harder to use.

Opening up the wrong popup is a significant failing, especially to someone who's visually challenged. I've read people complaining that they can't find things in the new settings app. We (and I) typically counter with they should use the search. The search should be completely reliable. I've not seen in any another application (not by Apple) where you use search in a settings dialog and are taken to the wrong place. I understand that it's not significant to you.

I never said all the bugs caused hangs. I think I mentioned that my guess was that clicking around too quickly caused a hang. I think it's only happened twice since I upgraded my old machine to Ventura, which was a while ago.

Maybe we all disagree on the quality of Ventura because we all have different standards we use to measure it. The fact that you categorized the bug I encountered as "about as minor of a bug you can get" tells me that we are on completely different pages with respect to software quality. It was a bug, one of many I've encountered and forgotten, and one which you never noticed or don't think matters.

System Settings will get better. It's purely a value judgement if you think it's good enough now to be considered production ready. I think it's alpha - I wouldn't give it to users, and if I were being realistic I would expect many bug reports from the testers (about bugs you would think insignificant). If I think my software is in beta, then I'm disappointed to get many bug reports from testers.

Catchy endings and punch lines:

System Settings is new; Apple doesn't do new well.

Jack - "Ventura has no bugs"
Jill - "What about this one?"
Jack - "That doesn't count"

I develop web apps. I'm VERY anal about every detail from efficient coding to the precise spacing of UI elements. So your implication that I somehow don't care about quality couldn't be further from the truth. I would definitely fix the minor bug we're discussing, but I certainly wouldn't be "embarrassed" by it, nor would I consider it a sign the software wasn't even beta level. That's an enormous overreaction.

 

[orionquest]

I only mentioned one bug. Perhaps read it again.

The biggest problem I'm having with Ventura is with System Settings. It was a great idea executed poorly with lots of bugs. Unfortunately I use it a lot, so stumble over many of them. I've had to force quit it a couple of times. The problems happen on my 2018 laptop as well as my brand new M2 (no migration done). If it's all working well for you, then you just aren't visiting the sections of that app that have the bugs. Also, even on my brand new M2 Max, it's sluggish.

The next biggest problem is related to SMB. My problems have been reported by others and some have said that Apple is aware of the issue. But still, it's pretty bad. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ventura-today-13-2-file-sharing-now-quit.2378064/.

Other than those two things, Ventura seems about the same as the last OS for things I use.

Perhaps not, if you can't keep your own context straight.

Again what you describe isn't worth complaining about and is just a case of personal preference or user error.

Thanks for playing!

 

[svenmany]

Oh well. I tried to answer the question asked of me. I really didn't want to bother; that's why I said "yuck" after @fisherking asked me to give examples of bugs and how I use the app. I gave a fresh example of a bug that didn't take long to stumble over. I'm definitely not going to continue to report them as I encounter them, since it has generated a bit of aggression and each one in isolation will be quickly dismissed.

In hindsight, I should have collected a bunch of them and presented them all at once. That was my initial plan. I was documenting things in Notes to help me remember. But then @usagora asked again, so I thought I should respond.

Perhaps not, if you can't keep your own context straight.

My post that you originally quoted mentioned one bug. "Yeah none of these are bugs to me." It didn't occur to me that you might be including the bugs I mentioned in other posts; I mentioned stealth turning off and being unable to open a dialog in network settings. I had just assumed that those would be bugs to you. Sorry I misunderstood you.

So your implication that I somehow don't care about quality couldn't be further from the truth.

Apologies if you thought I meant it about anything you produce. Definitely not my intention. The standard you hold Apple to is lower than mine with respect to this app. There are other things that I consider to be problems in the app that you might not. For example, I consider it a problem that sometimes the item I search for doesn't scroll into view. In my world this would be considered a bug and I would be asked to fix it. In my web apps I make sure the item of interest is visible as the user lands on the page; I bet you do too. I suspect others will say this criticism is nonsense. It might all depend on your eyesight. I have to sit so close to my monitors these days that I'm getting a sunburn. If I just made the effort to type in a search, I'd like to see the results without having to scroll and scan for it.

Anyway, I don't think Ventura is a steaming hot mess. I'm only having issues with System Settings and smb. Only the smb problem is insurmountable and Apple is working on it. System Settings is just an annoyance and they'll continue to fix and improve it as they have with the stealth bug. Even if System Settings hangs, it's easy to kill and restart.

 

[usagora]

The standard you hold Apple to is lower than mine with respect to this app. There are other things that I consider to be problems in the app that you might not. For example, I consider it a problem that sometimes the item I search for doesn't scroll into view. In my world this would be considered a bug and I would be asked to fix it.

You're still not getting me. I said I agree those things need to be fixed. Where we disagree is the notion that they should somehow be "embarrassed" by it or that it should be considered less than beta level software. They're simply minor inconveniences. So I think we're holding Apple to the same standards, but you're simply doing so seemingly in a more scathing and emotional manner than I do.

 

[svenmany]

You're still not getting me. I said I agree those things need to be fixed. Where we disagree is the notion that they should somehow be "embarrassed" by it or that it should be considered less than beta level software. They're simply minor inconveniences. So I think we're holding Apple to the same standards, but you're simply doing so seemingly in a more scathing and emotional manner than I do.

OK, I get you now. So you do agree there are bugs in settings that need to be fixed. I'm happy with that. That really was my main point. Since I raised that point, no one else has said as much. Instead I heard "nonsense" and "user error".

I'm not emotional about it at all. I was just participating in the conversation and giving my opinion of the situation. But, if I were to review Apple as if it was my employee, it would be scathing. So I'll grant you that one.

I know I'm not alone in the opinion that Apple does pretty inferior testing and releases software before it's ready. But there are no absolutes. The bugs are minor inconveniences to you. You feel their System Settings was ready for release. I respect your opinion.

You said you were interested in reproducible bug that results in System Settings hanging. I usually try to investigate and follow through. I'm not going to bother in this instance.

 

[usagora]

The bugs are minor inconveniences to you.

When I say that, I'm referring to things like you brought up about how the "Modifier Keys" pane opens instead of the "Screenshots" pane on the Keyboard Shortcuts window. Bugs of that nature I simply cannot see a rational argument being made for them being much more than a minor inconvenience. Again, that doesn't mean they shouldn't fix it, but that's certainly not on the level of "omg, how could they have released this?!" imo.

 

[svenmany]

When I say that, I'm referring to things like you brought up about how the "Modifier Keys" pane opens instead of the "Screenshots" pane on the Keyboard Shortcuts window. Bugs of that nature I simply cannot see a rational argument being made for them being much more than a minor inconvenience. Again, that doesn't mean they shouldn't fix it, but that's certainly not on the level of "omg, how could they have released this?!" imo.

Did you think that I was suggesting that this single bug was the basis for my opinion? I guess I wasn't clear then. That was just the bug I found within the first hour of bothering to pay attention after being asked for examples. If I told you there were 20 such bugs, would you start to think they should have done more testing before releasing? I really do want to know, but I understand you might think it's just hypothetical.

Certainly not "omg, how could they have release this?!" Rather, "It's kind of sad they released this. They could have done better."

 

[fisherking]

Did you think that I was suggesting that this single bug was the basis for my opinion? I guess I wasn't clear then. That was just the bug I found within the first hour of bothering to pay attention after being asked for examples. If I told you there were 20 such bugs, would you start to think they should have done more testing before releasing? I really do want to know, but I understand you might think it's just hypothetical.

Certainly not "omg, how could they have release this?!" Rather, "It's kind of sad they released this. They could have done better."

if you'd claimed you found '20 such bugs', i'd suggest that you're having problems with your mac since, regardless of people's opinions on the look of system settings, no one's claimed many bugs. not sure what your point is; we're discussing your observations, not hypotheticals...

and apple can always do better; hence, beta releases and OS updates. it's an endless process...

 

[usagora]

Did you think that I was suggesting that this single bug was the basis for my opinion? I guess I wasn't clear then. That was just the bug I found within the first hour of bothering to pay attention after being asked for examples. If I told you there were 20 such bugs, would you start to think they should have done more testing before releasing? I really do want to know, but I understand you might think it's just hypothetical.

If there were 20+ bugs on that level, I would certainly question the thoroughness of their testing, but still wouldn't think it was unworthy of release, because they're still minor things.

Certainly not "omg, how could they have release this?!" Rather, "It's kind of sad they released this. They could have done better."

I don't think it's "kind of sad" either. As a developer, I don't see any point in looking back and regretting things, unless it was something that rendered the software practically unusable or severely handicapped it. Just fix the bugs and move on. As for "could've done better," well, that's always true. No such thing as a perfect software release.

 

[er-minio]

No such thing as a perfect software release.

There never are. And Apple's first releases are notoriously "non super stable".
The usability of System Preference is pretty bad, to be honest.
I'm currently (as in: right now) trying to sort out media buttons not working anymore on an external keyboard on my MacBook pro and I'm getting confused at how the panes work: try searching for something and then accessing a panel from, say, the sound menu in the menu bar.

Additionally: if you are listening to music on Airpods while doing so, the equalisation seems to shift while going through the keyboard settings (at least on my current setup). I suspect it has something to do with the preference panel triggering the michrophone in the Airpods somehow.

Bug-wise, there quite a very high number of things not working as intended under Ventura. I understand that this affects a minority of users, but – yes – I started questioning Apple's QA process recently.
Also, seems like their approach to designing digital products/experiences is shifting slowly.

Been using Mac since System 6 (and professionally since System 9) and I've seen my fair share of high and lows...

 

[fisherking]

There never are. And Apple's first releases are notoriously "non super stable".
The usability of System Preference is pretty bad, to be honest.
I'm currently (as in: right now) trying to sort out media buttons not working anymore on an external keyboard on my MacBook pro and I'm getting confused at how the panes work: try searching for something and then accessing a panel from, say, the sound menu in the menu bar.

Additionally: if you are listening to music on Airpods while doing so, the equalisation seems to shift while going through the keyboard settings (at least on my current setup). I suspect it has something to do with the preference panel triggering the michrophone in the Airpods somehow.

Bug-wise, there quite a very high number of things not working as intended under Ventura. I understand that this affects a minority of users, but – yes – I started questioning Apple's QA process recently.
Also, seems like their approach to designing digital products/experiences is shifting slowly.

Been using Mac since System 6 (and professionally since System 9) and I've seen my fair share of high and lows...

agreed, system preferences is pretty bad (but only when compared with the new system settings).

not sure why you're having problems with search. and what ate the 'high number of things' not working in ventura? 🤔

 

[genexx]

Well, eventually, maybe, not and WTF the Problems sit in front of the Mac and twiddling with Garbage tools or Terminal Commands from different MacOS Version´s just F the System up.

I use Ventura from Beta 1 on Hackintoshes to M2 and have no Problems at all since RC1 13.0

My System was always updated or just imported from the running Monterey for instance and than from an Intel TM Backup Monterey M2 Updated within the M2 and guess what:

No Problems.

Yes i had to update several Binary and Terminal Programming related things as well as many Program Versions to get them run Native while changing to M2. But i have all my VM´s now on the M2 with UTM + the Windows 11 Arm.
No need for dedicated Windows Hardware anymore.

The Outlook search is not working yet but is not working good on Windows as well, i could not care less as it is working in Apple Mail Super fast with Subfolders in the Exchange Account.

The System Preferences adopted from iOS i do not Like and till Today i use the search function.

Started with Mac System 7, but using Unix / Linux / Windows and have no Problem with them either after just fixing them if needed.

I call Ventura and M2 a Success and would not have started with the M1 Line as the Software was not ready at the Time.

Just my 2 Cents.

 

[svenmany]

if you'd claimed you found '20 such bugs', i'd suggest that you're having problems with your mac since, regardless of people's opinions on the look of system settings, no one's claimed many bugs. not sure what your point is; we're discussing your observations, not hypotheticals...

and apple can always do better; hence, beta releases and OS updates. it's an endless process...

The situation is clear, except for the more serious bugs that I mentioned; what I find and consider bugs/problems, other people don't notice nor find them to be bugs. We're all different.

 

[fisherking]

The situation is clear, except for the more serious bugs that I mentioned; what I find and consider bugs/problems, other people don't notice nor find them to be bugs. We're all different.

sure, we're all different. but a bug is a bug, a singular issue is something else, and a dislike is just what it is. what you consider a bug, if it isn't common, is just your personal issue, nothing more (or less). 🤔

 

[genexx]

Well, it looks to be one that is BS ing about a personal preference as a bug ? Over so many Threads ?
What a waste of Time. Program your own OS we talk then...........

 

[er-minio]

agreed, system preferences is pretty bad (but only when compared with the new system settings).

Tomayto, tomahto.

not sure why you're having problems with search. and what ate the 'high number of things' not working in ventura? 🤔

Just to mention a few I also encountered:

- Inconsistent USB behaviour for external drives as they get dismounted when the computer goes in low power mode
- eGPU issues (widely documented in this forum)
- WiFi issues for some laptop users

The search thing on System settings is not an issue per se but confusing behaviour (plus the aforementioned Airpods bug) in the UI that I wouldn't have expected by Apple.

Did I mention I have Apple ****ing Music opening up every time I take the Airpods out of my ears?
Not a bug, but annoying app behaviour.

There are some other very small visual bugs or content bugs over System updates (no update details are ever shown), etc.

I'll keep using Ventura of course, and solving problems (small and big) that will arise, as I always did. No tragedy.
I'm just aware that it created problems here and there and it looks like there are a bit more small glitches/visual bugs than usual.

 

[genexx]

Just to mention a few I also encountered:

- Inconsistent USB behaviour for external drives as they get dismounted when the computer goes in low power mode
- eGPU issues (widely documented in this forum)
- WiFi issues for some laptop users

- Inconsistent USB behaviour for external drives as they get dismounted when the computer goes in low power mode
- eGPU issues (widely documented in this forum)

This USB related Issue exists for Decades and ist mostly depending on Thunderbolt/USB Devices or Cables, nothing new.
You can use Jettison to get away with using China Adapters

- WiFi issues for some laptop users

You have not ever used a Dell Latitude 5520 11th Gen CPU ? Unusable in Clamshell, 5mbit with AX201.........Not to forget the unusable NVME and USB External NVME/SSD Speeds. Got it from my Company and is collecting Dust now.
Some People reporting it with the Mini, my MBA M2 is working better than any other Device on WiFi ( Asus Mesh )

 

[svenmany]

sure, we're all different. but a bug is a bug, a singular issue is something else, and a dislike is just what it is. what you consider a bug, if it isn't common, is just your personal issue, nothing more (or less). 🤔

Hey, I have to recant something I said. The stealth bug is not fixed.

I define a bug in way that shows my bias as a developer. I define a bug as something that I think (just a guess) is in the developer's issue tracking system, recorded as a bug. Or something that would be recorded as such if they were made aware of it. They all have different severity levels. I hope the stealth bug has a high level. The wrong popup opening, if they're aware of it, would have a low severity level since there's a workaround.

The "not scrolling into view" thing is not a bug. It's probably on their radar as a scheduled improvement. Again, just a guess. And, I'll concede that one is personal preference.

 

[svenmany]

Inconsistent USB behaviour for external drives as they get dismounted when the computer goes in low power mode

That one drives me crazy. But for me, that's not new to Ventura. On my Intel machine, when it wakes from sleep, external drives are often abruptly disconnected and a get a whole column of alerts on the right, one for each drive that disconnected.

 

[Pecka]

I have gone back to Monterey.

On Ventura, several times my MBP have failed to wake up when I open the lid in the morning.

Also, I'm staying with Safari 15 as 16 have some bugs I find irritating.

Except maybe Passkeys Ventura don't have any features I find really interesting.

 

[dahacouk]

Just announced! macOS 14 will be called "We're fixing System Settings. Sorry for the headaches. Really!" Ahh, that's nice of them isn't it?!

 

[fisherking]

Just announced! macOS 14 will be called "We're fixing System Settings. Sorry for the headaches. Really!" Ahh, that's nice of them isn't it?!

what's wrong with system settings? 🤔

every version of every OS has issues, bugs. it's an endless cycle of fixes, new bugs, new features, new issues. there's no one moment when all is well.

and there are so many variables; the hardware we use, the configurations. the apps, our settings. the thing to do is... work. play. use your mac. report bugs. get help from this (mostly) stellar community. and get on with life.